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  1. #176
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Ok, and for high boost situations you would want meth/racegas right? So why are you blaming BMS for the failure of Enrita to make sure these two conditions were met?
    I never blamed BMS but if want to go down that road, he was never given the right information on these "two conditions" and misrepresented with the special maps he was given by Terry, hence the mis-communication and the resulting disastrous outcome to Enrita's engine.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Show me a factory DME ignitoin timing chart with 87 octane that won't show knock retard before settling down? Doesn't the factory knock control essentially look for knock and then adjust? Why is this good enough for BMW but not for you?
    BMW does not expect you to run there turbo's at 16psi, let alone at 20psi and because knock at stock 8psi boost levels is not the same as knock at more than double the specified boost the ECU is expecting to see. There are many levels of knock........do you agree???

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I still think you are looking at CPS offsetting in a one-sided manner and simply equating it to timing retard. That isn't the case, there is much more going on.
    yes there is more going on, but the amount of ignition correction going on and where it's happening, it has no detrimental adverse effects to Vanos or cam timing.........or the little effect it may have on it. Knock control works independantly to effect Vanos, Injection or cam timing and listens for knock exclusively so the ECU can retard timing.
    I would rather get a misfire code any day over any excessive knock ............but best to get neither.

  2. #177
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sparky66 Click here to enlarge
    I never blamed BMS but if want to go down that road, he was never given the right information on these "two conditions" and misrepresented with the special maps he was given by Terry, hence the mis-communication and the resulting disastrous outcome to Enrita's engine.
    I agree, better communication would have been key. Why this has been used to imply a defect or inferiority I have no clue. Terry should take his fair share of the blame, as should Enrita.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sparky66 Click here to enlarge
    BMW does not expect you to run there turbo's at 16psi, let alone at 20psi and because knock at stock 8psi boost levels is not the same as knock at more than double the specified boost the ECU is expecting to see. There are many levels of knock........do you agree???
    I do agree, and BMW does not expect you to run 87 octane either. If you do though, does that mean the engine will grenade or that the DME will detect knock and compensate?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sparky66 Click here to enlarge
    yes there is more going on, but the amount of ignition correction going on and where it's happening, it has no detrimental adverse effects to Vanos or cam timing.........or the little effect it may have on it. Knock control works independantly to effect Vanos, Injection or cam timing and listens for knock exclusively so the ECU can retard timing.
    I would rather get a misfire code any day over any excessive knock ............but best to get neither.
    This is speculation. You have not established there is no detrimental effect of the VANOS, cam timing, or knock control but what we do agree on is there is an effect. The fact we agree these systems are affected is more than enough for me.

    Does knock control work independent of VANOS? I believe we are establishing just how important the CPS is to many systems.

    Yes, best to get neither.

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  3. #178
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    All this is speculation because both tunes do work quite well and neither of us are tuners. We get our information from sources who have a lot more knowledge than us........so we try to learn as much as possible. We all defend a tune if it's performing well, so when we see it advertised in a negative light, it does make us very vocal to defend it passionately. If it wasn't working as it should I definetely would be speaking up...no doubt about it.
    Thanks for conversation., it was very interesting but man I need to get some sleep.

  4. #179
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sparky66 Click here to enlarge
    All this is speculation because both tunes do work quite well and neither of us are tuners. We get our information from sources who have a lot more knowledge than us........so we try to learn as much as possible. We all defend a tune if it's performing well, so when we see it advertised in a negative light, it does make us very vocal to defend it passionately. If it wasn't working as it should I definetely would be speaking up...no doubt about it.
    Thanks for conversation., it was very interesting but man I need to get some sleep.
    I agree, both work well. All this comes down to is users being informed and making their own (informed) decision.

    The people who originally brought this up have a far greater understanding of it than I or any of us discussing it do.

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  5. #180
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sparky66 Click here to enlarge
    Any serious tuner worth their money would seriously be alarmed at what you wrote and believe above.
    If you think LM can run 20psi and not knock only due to the fact that he is running meth with race gas and as you say, the DME also adjusting specific parameters (which you can't tell us what they are), tell LM to shutdown the meth pump/failsafe during one of these pulls.
    I feel sorry for guys like Enrita, who had to find out the hard way, that running a boost controller with absolutely no ability for timing correction and a DME that thinks it was still running stock boost, as it won't save your engine.

    your a fool, tell a procede car to shutdown the meth pump during a pull. I HAVE BEEN THROUGH THIS MANY TIMES NEITHER ONE IS GOING TO SAVE YOU. I CHALLENEG ANY PROCEDER TO TRY THIS ON 20 PSI!

    Get it through your head please..

    Go look at Enrita's lates logs with a .3 cps offest @ 18-19 psi.. YEA BABY! HE IS SO FREAKING SAFE WITH A .3 OFFSET im sure that would be the same or smaller @ 20 psi, but lets say the same.. Are YOU telling me a .3 degree offset is going to save him?
    Last edited by LostMarine; 03-24-2011 at 11:12 AM.

  6. #181
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    YEA BABY! HE IS SO FREAKING SAFE WITH A .3 OFFSET im sure that would be the same or smaller @ 20 psi, but lets say the same.. Are YOU telling me a .3 degree offset is going to save him?
    It's a mental thing, they feel safer. The illusion of safety is what they are after, kind of like our society after 9/11.

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  7. #182
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sparky66 Click here to enlarge
    This is not timing myth but fact......... as proven by Scalbert's unbiased and independant ignition timing/knock testing threads. Look them up.
    I'm too lazy to read most of your posts, the one above included, but I do take exception to the this statement. I've spoken with Steve many times via email and we get along fine. But he is exceptionally biased and not at all independent. When we were doing JB3 design orignally we got a quote and almost contracted with one of his employees for the major design work before deciding to do it in house. I personally think he was a bit miffed by it which led to some of the bias later on. The rest coming from his close relationship with procede beta testing working to find the flaws in the v2 implementation. He was/is a hardcore procede supporter.

  8. #183
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sparky66 Click here to enlarge
    I never blamed BMS but if want to go down that road, he was never given the right information on these "two conditions" and misrepresented with the special maps he was given by Terry, hence the mis-communication and the resulting disastrous outcome to Enrita's engine.
    Shouldnt someone who is going to take their car to that extremity know these two conditions?
    Click here to enlarge


  9. #184
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Gbreee90 Click here to enlarge
    Shouldnt someone who is going to take their car to that extremity know these two conditions?
    There is a degree of personal responsibility, yes.

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  10. #185
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    your a fool, tell a procede car to shutdown the meth pump during a pull. I HAVE BEEN THROUGH THIS MANY TIMES NEITHER ONE IS GOING TO SAVE YOU. I CHALLENEG ANY PROCEDER TO TRY THIS ON 20 PSI!

    Get it through your head please..

    Go look at Enrita's lates logs with a .3 cps offest @ 18-19 psi.. YEA BABY! HE IS SO FREAKING SAFE WITH A .3 OFFSET im sure that would be the same or smaller @ 20 psi, but lets say the same.. Are YOU telling me a .3 degree offset is going to save him?
    Read that response carefully......I never mentioned the Procede at all in that response to Sticky but was referencing the fact that just because a tune is running 20psi and not knocking itself to engine destruction does not mean the DME is capable of handling this level of boost. Without the use of meth/racegas no tune will save your engine.....Procede included.
    As for Enrita, this was my response to Sticky about his failure........."I never blamed BMS but if want to go down that road, he was never given the right information on these "two conditions" and misrepresented with the special maps he was given by Terry, hence the mis-communication and the resulting disastrous outcome to Enrita's engine".
    No one mention timing or lack there of, so don't get hot under the collar.Click here to enlarge

  11. #186
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sparky66 Click here to enlarge
    Any serious tuner worth their money would seriously be alarmed at what you wrote and believe above.
    If you think LM can run 20psi and not knock only due to the fact that he is running meth with race gas and as you say, the DME also adjusting specific parameters (which you can't tell us what they are), tell LM to shutdown the meth pump/failsafe during one of these pulls.
    I feel sorry for guys like Enrita, who had to find out the hard way, that running a boost controller with absolutely no ability for timing correction and a DME that thinks it was still running stock boost, as it won't save your engine.
    Although you do not mention any tune specifically, your vague descriptions of events and properties of one tune over another make it rather clear your intent, backed by previosu statements you have made. Its even clearer your agenda

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...8289#post88289

  12. #187
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    LM.
    lol.......no agenda or conspiracy at all. Where is any information I've discussed here, misleading?
    Talk about "the pot calling the kettle black"....take a chill pill.

  13. #188
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sparky66 Click here to enlarge
    Without the use of meth/racegas no tune will save your engine.....Procede included.
    As long as you and I agree on this. All is well

  14. #189
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    JB4 + meth log. Looks pretty good, PWM is pretty much maxed out I wonder why.
    Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by Forcefed; 03-26-2011 at 12:18 AM.
    Click here to enlarge


  15. #190
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    Looks good. PWM maxes out around 16.5-18psi stock turbos depending on the conditions and board used. Safety system.

    Got a few customer CPS logs in to study. Still not overly impressed. I'll post em up later.

  16. #191
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    yeah but if meth fails and you revert to map 1 instantly you would get timing offset of over 3 degrees which is safer in my book than none. at 18 psi thats perfect. at over 18 psi race gas should definetely be used. I guess we have now greater experience on what boost levels can be run in safety than past year.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    your a fool, tell a procede car to shutdown the meth pump during a pull. I HAVE BEEN THROUGH THIS MANY TIMES NEITHER ONE IS GOING TO SAVE YOU. I CHALLENEG ANY PROCEDER TO TRY THIS ON 20 PSI!

    Get it through your head please..

    Go look at Enrita's lates logs with a .3 cps offest @ 18-19 psi.. YEA BABY! HE IS SO FREAKING SAFE WITH A .3 OFFSET im sure that would be the same or smaller @ 20 psi, but lets say the same.. Are YOU telling me a .3 degree offset is going to save him?
    07 335i AT - MOTIV 750 - MHD BMS E85 - BMS PI - JB4G5 - Okada Coils - NGK 5992 Plugs - Helix IC - Stett CP - Custom midpipes with 100 HJS Cats - Bastuck Quad - PSS10 - QUAIFE LSD - BMS OCC - Forge DVs - AR OC - ALCON BBK - M3 Chassi - Dinan CP - Velocity M rear Toe arms - Advan RZ-DF - LUX H8 - Level 10 AT upgrade
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by enrita Click here to enlarge
    yeah but if meth fails and you revert to map 1 instantly you would get timing offset of over 3 degrees which is safer in my book than none. at 18 psi thats perfect. at over 18 psi race gas should definetely be used. I guess we have now greater experience on what boost levels can be run in safety than past year.
    reverting still results in knock. thats that reactive part, not proactive..
    We are not more more experienced. 16+ you need racefuel, substituiting with meth is ok with failsafe and user undertands risk

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Looks good. PWM maxes out around 16.5-18psi stock turbos depending on the conditions and board used. Safety system.

    Got a few customer CPS logs in to study. Still not overly impressed. I'll post em up later.
    It definitely seems like methanol is a better choice when you are looking to reduce timing drops. Although CPS is much cheaper. It seems like an obvious choice more power with meth, or a little less power with CPS offsetting? Anyway, its good that you are offering it for people who want it anyway!
    Last edited by Forcefed; 03-26-2011 at 09:46 AM.
    Click here to enlarge


  19. #194
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    reverting still results in knock. thats that reactive part, not proactive..
    We are not more more experienced. 16+ you need racefuel, substituiting with meth is ok with failsafe and user undertands risk
    wow didnt know you had done such extensive tests on the Procede !

    If the JB works for you and you ONLY run on high octane its perfectly fine and we have seen that your car puts down lots of power .

    In my case i want to be able to run more boost on pump gas without knocking so the best choice is the Procede right now and i am very happy with it . i have provided logs showing how fine my car is running on both pump and meth.
    07 335i AT - MOTIV 750 - MHD BMS E85 - BMS PI - JB4G5 - Okada Coils - NGK 5992 Plugs - Helix IC - Stett CP - Custom midpipes with 100 HJS Cats - Bastuck Quad - PSS10 - QUAIFE LSD - BMS OCC - Forge DVs - AR OC - ALCON BBK - M3 Chassi - Dinan CP - Velocity M rear Toe arms - Advan RZ-DF - LUX H8 - Level 10 AT upgrade
    Click here to enlarge

  20. #195
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by enrita Click here to enlarge
    wow didnt know you had done such extensive tests on the Procede !

    If the JB works for you and you ONLY run on high octane its perfectly fine and we have seen that your car puts down lots of power .

    In my case i want to be able to run more boost on pump gas without knocking so the best choice is the Procede right now and i am very happy with it . i have provided logs showing how fine my car is running on both pump and meth.
    Actually I have something sitting on my desk here for LM to help test. If I can talk him in to it. Click here to enlarge
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Actually I have something sitting on my desk here for LM to help test. If I can talk him in to it. Click here to enlarge

    careful, my arms are still sore from all the twisting you had to do for the Jb4 Click here to enlarge

  22. #197
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Actually I have something sitting on my desk here for LM to help test. If I can talk him in to it. Click here to enlarge
    What is it?

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
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  23. #198
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    Im sure you can figure it out all by yourself

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    What is it?
    That is the CPS offsetting control box.
    Click here to enlarge


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