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  1. #1
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    PG calling BS on Gintani dyno results (what a loser)

    http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=207

    Someone help me understand what this guy is so confused about? Who's car makes 60-80whp difference between Drew's car and Brians car? last I checked the difference was like ~25whp at 5.5psi vs 7.5psi (dont give a $#@! about that fitted curve method he pulled out his ass btw) and with slightly more boost at 8.5-9psi with race fuel brians car made 592whp so what is the mystery? Also brians car is totally catless so either PG is completley retarded or just trying to reinforce his reputation for being an $#@! which is it?

    All I know is drews times were enough to $#@! slap his car back to AZ for more upgradeds lol Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PencilGeek
    I've got bad news for the folks who tried to explain why 5 PSI kit makes 506whp on one dyno, but Drew's 8 PSI kit (yes, it's now officially 8PSI using the fitted curve method) makes 517whp -- only 11whp more. You guys remember your explanations, so I won't bother to recap them. Before presenting the results, first let me say that anybody who believes that SAE correction can explain a 60-80 whp difference between two dynos, is misinformed and/or doesn't understand SAE correction or the forumulas behind it. Anybody who wants to learn how SAE correction works, you can purchase and download the SAE-1349 specification from the SAE web site. It's only about $50. I'll be happy to answer some basic questions about it -- as I have a pretty good understanding (having written some software that uses it).

    Yesterday, I visited HK Motorsports in Van Nuys -- practically across the street from Gintani. I met Harry the shop owner. I showed up at the shop with an empty tank of gas -- and only 11 miles to go until I ran out. Harry was a super nice guy. He took great pride in his shop and the accuracy of his dyno. He showed me the great lengths he goes through to make sure his results are accurate. He also takes great pride in his customers -- and makes sure to snap a picture of every car that goes on his dyno.
    With an empty tank in my car, we added 5 gallons of E16 racing gasoline (oxygenated version of C16). Then we ran four dyno runs.

    After finishing my dyno runs at HK Motorsports, I drove the car directly to Auto Talent and parked it for the night. Today when it came time, we drove off to Specialty-Z in Chatsworth for part-2 in the quest to explain where 60-80whp came from. By the time we were done (also four dyno runs), my five gallons of E16 were gone. But I must say, it was $80 worth of gas well spent.

    If one dyno really does read "lower" or "higher" than another, there are only two ways it can do it. The difference is either a fixed amount (e.g. always 20whp no matter how powerful the car being tested), or the difference is a function of the horsepower being measured. Even the latter approach can take (at least) three different forms: 1) directly proportional -- where the difference in dynos will scale directly to the horsepower being measured. When this happens, the more horsepower being measured, the greater the difference will be. 2) Exponential, or geometric. Like directly proportional, the greater the horsepower being measured, the greater the difference will be. But in this case, the difference doesn't just increase by simply multiplying a value (such as 1.1 times the result), the difference will be exponential in nature (difference = value^1.1). 3) Logarithmic. This is a case where the greater the horsepower being measured, the smaller the differences will be. For example, a 500whp car may have 50whp difference between the two dynos, but a 600whp car may have only 52whp difference, and a 700whp car may have only 54whp difference, etc.

    If a 60-80 whp difference is due to different weather conditions, then SAE correction was not being used. The sole purpose of SAE correction is to normalize dyno results from one set of weather conditions to the other. There will NEVER be an example where SAE corrected results can cause a 60-80 whp difference unless you are outside of the limits of SAE correction weather specifications (they are in the spec). In Drew's and niterider's dyno results, this was not the case anyways because both used SAE correction and the weathre was not blow the minimum, or above the maximum weather specifications. So it was clear from the very beginning that anybody who tried to explain these differences due to weather alone, didn't bother to notice that both results used SAE correction and/or they don't know how SAE correction works.

    For both of my results, I'll present the weather data, uncorrected, and SAE corrected diffences. If anything can be used to demontrate a 60-80 whp difference between these to dyno's, then it will clearly be visible from my data.



    Weather Data HK Motorsports:
    Date: March 18, 2010
    Time: 5:30 PM - 5:51 PM.
    Temperature: 76.39 - 77.37 degrees.
    Pressure: 29.11 - 29.13 inches of mercury.
    Humidity: 27 - 28%
    Correction: 1.01 - 1.02
    Weather Data Specialty-Z:
    Date: March 19, 2010
    Time: 5:48 - 5:58 PM.
    Temperature: 81.75 - 83.23 degrees.
    Pressure: 29.12 - 29.14 inches of mercury.
    Humidity: 12 - 13%
    Correction: 1.01 - 1.02
    Results:
    HK MotorSports: 504whp - 519whp uncorrected, 512whp - 525whp SAE uorrected.
    Specialty-Z: 506whp - 522whp uncorrected, 514whp - 529whp SAE corrected.

    So, whether you measure the results uncorrected or corrected, fixed amount or scaled, there isn't 60-80whp of difference between these two dynos -- no matter how much twisting and contorting you have to go through to think there is. Just as I predicted, both dyno's were within a few horsepower of each other. For all intents and purposes and probably statistical accuracy, these two dyno's read nearly identical.

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    You left out another VERY important difference.... 6MT vs. DCT. PG himself should know more than ANYONE how much of a difference dyno'ing in different gears can create, let alone a whole different type of transmission, yet he just conveniently doesn't mention that...

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    he needs to step down as mod.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by tag824 Click here to enlarge
    guess i lost all my rep's... later bro's

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    You beat me to it, I was about to make a thread about this. I was not going to post my dyno results but I will now simply to shoot down his whole "investigation" and show what is really up.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MSpiredM3 Click here to enlarge
    You left out another VERY important difference.... 6MT vs. DCT. PG himself should know more than ANYONE how much of a difference dyno'ing in different gears can create, let alone a whole different type of transmission, yet he just conveniently doesn't mention that...
    And these different transmissions have different gearing...

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    Honestly, I don't think I need to say anything. The blatant disrespect there is enough. The battle is over, Gintani laid low, let their products speak, and they won. PG is desperately attempting to fan flames, it is over, it's done, Gintani won.

    Drew's response says it all:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DLSJ5
    Robert, with all due respect this thread is not about your quest to compare dyno sheets or to try and make someone else look bad or that they are lying about their results, trust me there's plenty of questionable dyno claims out there. If you want to do that open up another thread, don't crap on mine. Having said that, let's look at your claims here.

    If you think .5 psi is such a huge gap in what I claimed fair enough, you got me man. Now let's look at your dyno's, you claimed 6.25 - 6.5 psi, however you never took the car to redline, so you are actually boosting more than what you claimed. I would say at least .5 psi more too, talk about calling the kettle black.

    Also on my AEM boost gauge, I'm hitting a peak boost of 7psi when the car shifts into the next gear, if I take it to the rev limiter it reads 8psi, because of the spike. I do not put a lot of stock in DJ boost readings as being 100% accurate, but more in my boost gauge. We are splitting hairs over .5psi.

    If you want to attack or claim foul on dyno results, YOU ARE VERY SELECTIVE when you do so, as are others, but you need to look in your own backyard, since it appears that is your thing, and as a moderator you need to be more impartial in this regard, or don't do it at all. I wanted to believe you were, but it seems on these forums that is impossible you can't bite the hand that feeds you.

    Let's look at what we know, Brian's car, probably made that power because he has no cats, and possible less DTL, not sure. Do you not remember when his car made 593whp at the eurotuner event on a DJ? They said it spiked at 9.5, psi, so most likely 8-9 psi was his actual level, this # makes sense based on his 5psi dyno, my dyno is the only one that doesn't show as much power, not the other cars, but you know what, I don't care, 60-130, and traps speeds are what I care about, as well as comparo runs, in case you missed that data, so far it trumps your car even with far less HP, having said that I would love to see you go out and trump my #'s, I mean that.

    Look at Sammy's Stage 1 dyno, not done by Gintani, but by him, approx. 5.5 psi, he hit 512whp on Autowave's DD's, which reads like a DJ, this proves Brian's #'s seem reasonable. Also Sammy's 60-130 is more than a second slower than mine, proving the power difference.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PencilGeek
    You guys remember your explanations, so I won't bother to recap them. Before presenting the results, first let me say that anybody who believes that SAE correction can explain a 60-80 whp difference between two dynos, is misinformed and/or doesn't understand SAE correction or the forumulas behind it. Anybody who wants to learn how SAE correction works, you can purchase and download the SAE-1349 specification from the SAE web site. It's only about $50. I'll be happy to answer some basic questions about it -- as I have a pretty good understanding (having written some software that uses it).
    The explanations are fundamental and are accurate. What about the other Gintani car, you saw the dyno files at specialty Z, lol, that car running the same boost level, made a lot more power than me. Why? I would say no cats and a free flow exhaust with some race fuel added in made the difference, he hit around 555 whp SAE and 567STD, I'd say that's quite a bit more than me.

    Who claimed there was a 60-80whp difference between the two dynojets? I don't agree with that. The reasoning most gave here were because of the mods, the DTL differences, the different dyno's, days, etc. pretty standard reasons that most understand.

    To recap, what about Brian's car hitting 593whp at the eurotuner event with just a tad more boost than me? That dyno should be compared as well, as should Sammy's, as should the other 2+ car. Robert they all made more or the same power than me, I think it's great, so should you. Why not focus on what this thread is about "Bro"?

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    Drew, one thing, I totally understand your posting and what you are saying, however, you mentioned my dyno results. Drew, I haven't posted my results and honestly have not even seen my own graphs yet. I know you had no bad intention but you essentially used my results without consulting to me to bolster your own argument. I think you should have at least asked me before releasing my results bro. If you are going to refer to me as well, I have a name Drew, I'm not some nameless "other" car.

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    This is a flat out lie:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PencilGeek
    Mike, the DynoDB disproves any theory that drive train losses account for any discernible measurement difference between 6MT and DCT. You won't see any discernible differences between stock or equally modified 6MT and DCT cars in the DynoDB.
    The DCT is powered by a pulley off the crank. It HAS to have higher drivetrain losses, there is no getting around this. Secondly, DCT dyno less by a few whp stock. It is a proven fact, ask any dyno operator who frequently runs these cars. I believe my early results compared with Jonmartin's showed a similar small discrepancy due to the DCT.

    And this:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by biglare
    Robert's actions with testing two separate dyno's of the same type only add even more speculation to the dyno results. I'm again, taking them for what they are worth, but a 40, 50 or even 60 whp difference with the same car between the same types of dyno's sounds whack to me, but whatever and that is my opinion.
    Bud, what speculation? What 40-60 whp difference? What are you talking about?

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    I just posted on m3post. "PG, you are full of $#@! and an old man with nothing better to do than start drama on forums. Grow a pair, run you car against other and stop being a drama queen...."

    It got deleted by him, within minutes... Sad, but hilarious, to see such an insecure old man with nothing better to do.

    What a bunch of $#@!es..... They are turning that forum into the same bull$#@! as M3forum.

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    nerdsheet BULL$#@! all over again.

    wow new thread hahaha thanks southlight...
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by tag824 Click here to enlarge
    guess i lost all my rep's... later bro's

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Shaunt
    I'm calling for PG to step down as a mod... This has gone too far. There's so much distortion around here and someone with this much bias shouldn't have a position that makes it so easy to manipulate the public.
    Click here to enlarge I feel really good about BimmerBoost right now. I feel really good about people seeing it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Drew, one thing, I totally understand your posting and what you are saying, however, you mentioned my dyno results. Drew, I haven't posted my results and honestly have not even seen my own graphs yet. I know you had no bad intention but you essentially used my results without consulting to me to bolster your own argument. I think you should have at least asked me before releasing my results bro. If you are going to refer to me as well, I have a name Drew, I'm not some nameless "other" car.
    I never posted your graphs, regardless you made A LOT more than me with same boost level, I don't see any harm in that.Click here to enlarge Your #'s are fantastic IMHO.
    08 E92 M3 - DCT
    Bolt Ons - Best ET 11.88 Best Trap Speed 119.8 MPH
    60-130 MPH (3 shifts) 10.71s
    Gintani Stage 2+ Supercharger 60-130MPH (3 shifts) 7.06s
    11.45 @ 131.6 MPH
    579WHP @9.3psi

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    Sticky- you have a PM from me. Please let me know if you did not receive it.

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    Should PG be moderator?

    vote here: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=364463

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    Originally Posted by biglare
    Robert's actions with testing two separate dyno's of the same type only add even more speculation to the dyno results. I'm again, taking them for what they are worth, but a 40, 50 or even 60 whp difference with the same car between the same types of dyno's sounds whack to me, but whatever and that is my opinion.
    Like Sticky said what 40-60whp are you talking about? I know you read these boards so you might as well reply. There haven't been two Gintani cars with the EXACT same setup to comare to each other so this is pretty funny and shows the lack of sense with ess fan club. Once and for all NO ONE CAN COMPARE BRIANS CAR TO DREWS CAR AT ANY POINT. They are completely different setups. You and your crew are making it sound like the two cars are the same and the only difference is that drews car has more boost and meth. And thats incorrect. PG's post is total crap and proves nothing whatsoever bottomline because Gintani didn't officially say the difference was because of the dynos thats something someone mentioned for whatever reason and he ran with it as if that was the gospel. If you want to talk about what is whack try talking about why your cars is over a half second slower 60-130 with a diff and more mods. And post some independent dynos of your car then you can speak but until then just dont say anything.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DLSJ5 Click here to enlarge
    I never posted your graphs, regardless you made A LOT more than me with same boost level, I don't see any harm in that.Click here to enlarge Your #'s are fantastic IMHO.
    Drew, I see absolutely no harm but I didn't release any numbers or graphs, no info. I haven't even seen them, so, essentially you just released them. I don't mind sharing info, but I wish you would have checked, as I wanted to prevent this:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PencilGeek
    Sticky's dynos.
    LOL is right. I've seen Sticky's dynos yesterday. They read more like a greek tragedy than a success story. He torque curve is so screwed up that he doesn't gain a single ft/lb of torque from 4000-5400 RPMs. He's only making 551whp on 9PSI. Funny that these guys claim he's making more power on less boost, and over 600whp on 8PSI, but never post the dyno graphs. I now see that he's making 551 whp on 9 PSI (his best run of all five), runs completely catless, runs C16 racing fuel, and runs meth as a fuel additive and only makes 40 more whp than Drew on 91 octane. If that's not a tragedy, I don't know how to describe it.

    Now that I've seen them, I can understand why they don't post them.
    See what I mean? I haven't even gotten a chance to see the graphs or numbers and he is already attacking me when I made more power at less boost. Not to mention the exhaust and headers dropped the boost pressure.

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    I too believe someone with side deals from companies should not be allowed as a moderator (hence M3forum)...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TaZaM3 Click here to enlarge
    I too believe someone with side deals from companies should not be allowed as a moderator (hence M3forum)...
    I think that is a very good point!
    Current: 964 WB, 993, Panamera Turbo

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Drew, I see absolutely no harm but I didn't release any numbers or graphs, no info. I haven't even seen them, so, essentially you just released them. I don't mind sharing info, but I wish you would have checked, as I wanted to prevent this:



    See what I mean? I haven't even gotten a chance to see the graphs or numbers and he is already attacking me when I made more power at less boost. Not to mention the exhaust and headers dropped the boost pressure.
    My apologies J, but Robert saw them before I even posted, where is that post from? Regardless I don't agree with his assesment, your car did fantastic. Click here to enlarge
    08 E92 M3 - DCT
    Bolt Ons - Best ET 11.88 Best Trap Speed 119.8 MPH
    60-130 MPH (3 shifts) 10.71s
    Gintani Stage 2+ Supercharger 60-130MPH (3 shifts) 7.06s
    11.45 @ 131.6 MPH
    579WHP @9.3psi

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DLSJ5 Click here to enlarge
    My apologies J, but Robert saw them before I even posted, where is that post from? Regardless I don't agree with his assesment, your car did fantastic. Click here to enlarge
    Oh, it is just more of his behind the back stuff.

    The car did do fantastic, but what is really fantastic is that the boost dropped due to the headers! If only we noticed it sooner and turned it back up Click here to enlarge

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    The weird thing is that till this day Alex@Gintani is still helping PG even after all the $#@! this guys said about him, I really dont get it. But whatever I know I for sure wont ever help this guy again, hes burning his own bridges. Like someone else said, he needs to get over dynos and go race his car and I mean he drives his own car when racing not let some one else drive. With all the dam time this guy has I would def get off the forums and go learn how to shift my car cause from what Ive seen hes pretty bad at that.

    What sucks the most is that his car is actually not a bad car and with the right set up he could be doing some damage on the streets/track, but because of the type of person Im just now finding out he is, I wont ever give his car or him any kind of props.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by niterider Click here to enlarge
    The weird thing is that till this day Alex@Gintani is still helping PG even after all the $#@! this guys said about him, I really dont get it. But whatever I know I for sure wont ever help this guy again, hes burning his own bridges. Like someone else said, he needs to get over dynos and go race his car and I mean he drives his own car when racing not let some one else drive. With all the dam time this guy has I would def get off the forums and go learn how to shift my car cause from what Ive seen hes pretty bad at that.

    What sucks the most is that his car is actually not a bad car and with the right set up he could be doing some damage on the streets/track, but because of the type of person Im just now finding out he is, I wont ever give his car or him any kind of props.
    You know what, you said it well.

    I don't understand Alex either in this respect. He is a good dude and apparently has a bigger heart than I do, I just would never pick up the phone or even spit on PG if he was on fire.

    The car is not bad as you said, but whatever, regardless, I think we proved there is NOTHING wrong with Drew's dyno results. I don't even get what point they were trying to make.

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    pg has been quiet the past couple of days. i wonder what he is trying to cook up this time...
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by tag824 Click here to enlarge
    guess i lost all my rep's... later bro's

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    He's upset his car is a failure..

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    I though PG should have done a way better time
    Current: 964 WB, 993, Panamera Turbo

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