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  1. #1
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    Hey Shiv, and Clap135/Laloosh i guess can answer this too..

    I have a statement here, made by someone who seems to understand tuning a little bit better than, what I would call EVERYONE on E90.

    Could you care to read it, and break it down into why these statements are NOT true?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by *****
    My goal was to simply point out the hypocrisy in their so-called knock analysis in the two threads I posted in (where they analyzed only ignition or a single dyno run) and bring it down to a rational conversation. I even PM'd a number of people (including Shiv himself) for conversations on a few of their comments to try to see where they were coming from first. I was hoping for some real conversation and to get down to what they are relying on for the assertions, but not a one of them ever responded.
    It's kind of interesting... I read these forums for a while before deciding to tune my street vehicle (this is the first time I have done so). I saw and still see the potential CPS offsetting in any engine tuning application, but see no proof that they are doing it correctly (or well), or anything other than marginal difference on this platform.
    As with anything mechanical, there is theory and there is application. I see good theory, but bad application by vishnu. While they jump on every JB thread talking about the potential for engine damage (over very extended periods of time so far as I can see), they ignore the real people using their product who have posts about real problems that really are causing real damage. With all the complaints and all the bad service over there, their attempt to adjust ignition just struck me as one more possible area for their tune to fail and risk more real damage.
    In fact, the frequent posts over there by people with problems and the frequent posts about horrible service are why I went with JB. Theories about potential JB problems are cause for theoretical concern... seeing proCEDE people with real problems is cause for real concern.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ******
    I just checked the "Hey Terry" thread over there, and something caught my eye. As my posts over there before being banned reflect, I've never stated that ignition control isn't important, but I have consistently questioned whether the proCEDE way is actually being implemented correctly or safely. They obviously don't like the JB way, but my point has been that they attack the approach using logic that is overly BASIC/old/outdated/inapplicable to the BMW control system. (If you plugged their logic into a ford mustang thread with aftermarket turbos running off the stock computer, I would have much less issue with anything they say.)
    Anyway.
    So I noticed this post by Mike over there:
    <B>
    The PROcede fakes the load signal back in to the DME based on the load target. So by design you'll never see load changes in the ignition advance and that is the same reason CPS offsets are so necessary during transitions with it.
    </B>
    Wow. This would also explain why they have had cars misfiring/knocking/bogging and having trouble with shifts without being able to easily identify it and fix it. The proCEDE solution is just another can of worms. Even if it eventually works, I can't believe that Shiv would release his product without significant more testing than he did (as is obvious by all the proCEDE problem threads). Sure you're changing timing proactively (as they like to say), but at what cost? Tricking the ECU about boost is one thing. Faking load is another. Most importantly, with the way Shiv implemented this solution into his product makes it laughable that he questions Terry's tuning approaches.
    I've said it before, but it is even more relevant now...
    Theories about potential JB problems are cause for theoretical concern... seeing proCEDE people with real problems is cause for real concern.
    Last edited by LostMarine; 02-23-2011 at 07:40 PM.

  2. #2
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    The way boost is reported back to the DME is definitely a difference between the two piggybacks. With their setup the DME always thinks its right at the targeted load point regardless of whether boost is above, at, or below target. Then they go off and run the boost independently and only change that value as boost starts to go more than 1psi over target to induce some throttle closure and at a slower rate than the stock tuning. The JB4 on the other hand is always feeding a scaled value back to the DME and we do not alter it in an effort to allow boost to overshoot without closure. In short our response to over boost is the same aggressive behavior you'd see with a stock curve, while theirs is dampened.

    But I think Mike's point was since advance is mapped off load they are likely winding up over advanced during transitions which requires all these CPS offsets they do in that area. Makes sense to me. Similarly when going over target our timing will drop faster and more aggressively per the original mapping.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 02-23-2011 at 08:42 PM. Reason: spelling mistake.

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    0 out of 4 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    That's a good one.

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    ignore, defer, deflect.. your strategy at work as usual..

    cheers,

    LM

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    3 out of 3 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    That's a good one.
    How about a real answer?
    JB4LIFE

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    4 out of 4 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    That's a good one.
    Insightful reply, i learned a ton. Please keep it to a 3 word minimum next time, way too much to comprehend.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    That's a good one.
    I was considering going with Procede as my next tune but.........

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    Come on Shiv!
    You have a huge mouth over on e90why not here??
    I wonder?

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    i suppose he is trying to conjure up something that sounds overly technical but mostly fictional Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    That's a good one.
    Although this thread obviously isn't positive for the procede, a quick answer could diffuse the negative light. Help us out
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SSDD Click here to enlarge
    Although this thread obviously isn't positive for the procede, a quick answer could diffuse the negative light. Help us out
    well, we should probably be asking COBB as they seem to have more insight according to some people

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    Shiv isnt stupid, he knows there are too many people here with too much freedom. I have nothing against the tune itself, but as soon as he opens his mouth everyone is gonna gang rape him so hes doing the right thing for his business to stay shut. Cant blame him for it, this forum is far too free for any censorship to take place; hence why e90post is a better home for a paying sponsor. Just throwing it out there, nothing personal towards anyone.
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

    Other people eat shit and die.

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    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    Shiv isnt stupid, he knows there are too many people here with too much freedom. I have nothing against the tune itself, but as soon as he opens his mouth everyone is gonna gang rape him so hes doing the right thing for his business to stay shut. Cant blame him for it, this forum is far too free for any censorship to take place; hence why e90post is a better home for a paying sponsor. Just throwing it out there, nothing personal towards anyone.
    Exactly right on.

    This is a battle Shiv can't win without an army of moderators at his side.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
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    he can win if its not true and he enlightens us to why the procede does what it does and how it is actually better, and not theoretically better Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    he can win if its not true and he enlightens us to why the procede does what it does and how it is actually better, and not theoretically better Click here to enlarge
    Why don't you ask Adrian then for a real technical explanation? The marketing department isn't qualified to answer.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Why don't you ask Adrian then for a real technical explanation? The marketing department isn't qualified to answer.
    At least spit on it before you put it in.
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

    Other people eat shit and die.

    I'm not racist, I hate everybody equally; especially fat people.


    Click here to enlarge

  17. #17
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    Lol

  18. #18
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Why don't you ask Adrian then for a real technical explanation? The marketing department isn't qualified to answer.

    i forgot all about that part of it, he really is a good salesman i guess

  19. #19
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    i forgot all about that part of it, he really is a good salesman i guess
    I'd be a good saleman too if I was put in a store filled to the brim with poorly educated potential customers standing with open wallets, forced to shop there being unaware of alternatives, and if I could have them removed from the premises any time they said or did something I did not like.

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  20. #20
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    i like what this guys is saying..:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by *****
    .. Combine that approach with the coding that seems to be always under development, never tested, and full of unresolved problems, and you have MORE than negated any such marginal gain in safety that they believe they have.
    This is not the big deal they are making it out to be, it's just a fight over a difference between the tunes. Frankly, anyone making a big deal of this issue should not be using either product. To say one is superior in this regard seems laughable. The fact that they are mischaracterizing this risk shows that they either a) only partially understand what they are talking about, or b) are purposefully misleading people.
    This fingerpointing and exploiting fears of the average end-user is a joke. Not only is the potential for damage being grossly overstated, the point is basically moot when autotuning is used.

  21. #21
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    i like what this guys is saying..:
    Wow I like this guy, has brains and motzy
    JB4LIFE

  22. #22
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    Invite him over here.
    He'll get more and better answers to his questions and no risk of being banned or blocked.
    There are two theories to arguing with women. Neither one works

  23. #23
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    clap135 shiv and where are you now

    already tired of talking trash in another forum, or are afraid that this forum no one will be censored and answers
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    Invite him over here.
    He'll get more and better answers to his questions and no risk of being banned or blocked.
    Shiv is over here, that reaches our procede fanboy quota. That is more than enough.

    Regardless, let's get some technical discussion going or else this is just pointless flaming and we don't need that.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
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  25. #25
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    Ah sorry.
    By "him" I ment the original poster LM quoted.
    Shiv's way of (not) aswering questions when requested is something I've been getting familiar with over the last 3 months.
    Which I think is a pitty and bad for his tune the ProCede. He is not doing himself any favors by behaving like this, and it will hurt his company.
    Unless there is real truth to all concerns about the ProCede. In that case he'd better stay quiet. I would like a technical discussion, if not than just to understand these piggyback tunes, and how they exactly work, better.
    There are two theories to arguing with women. Neither one works

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