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  1. #51
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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Scott hasn't replied in the thread, but he has posted this elsewhere in public forums, so I don't think I would be intruding on his privacy by clearing things up.
    The reason why Scott's car isn't done has nothing to do with HPF, he just had another kid, as well as starting his radar-mirror.com business, and running one
    of the more popular high end car clubs in North Texas, he is just focused on other things.

    Last I heard he was also waiting until HPF gets the new unmilled blocks in from BMW before doing his build, as the rumor is, he is going to be doing something new...

  2. #52
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mbowdo20 Click here to enlarge
    Last I heard he was also waiting until HPF gets the new unmilled blocks in from BMW before doing his build, as the rumor is, he is going to be doing something new...
    So the new blocks are not in yet? When are they expected?

  3. #53
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    Did someone say new blocks?

  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ZooyorQ Click here to enlarge
    Did someone say new blocks?
    Yes, they are going to be getting blocks direct from BMW.

  5. #55
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ZooyorQ Click here to enlarge
    Did someone say new blocks?
    Also, these are brand new block castings which I've heard good and bad about. Will wait for someone with more expertise to chime in.

  6. #56
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    Questions are good.
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

  7. #57
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Also, these are brand new block castings which I've heard good and bad about.
    Unless the blocks are now cast using superior materials and processes, seasoned blocks are generally preferred. In fact, the quality of new block castings often goes down when the car goes out of production and the work is farmed out to lesser facilities.


    "Seasoned" blocks have been heat cycled countless times over the years -- a process that relieves stresses and relaxes the block. Many of the dimensions will have changed slightly as the metal slowly rearranges itself to where it wants to be. When you machine a seasoned block, it is more likely to stay true over time/heat/pressure. A new casting hasn't been relaxed through countless heat cycles so it is less likely to stay true over time/heat/pressure causing additional wear...


    A good machine shop can still use an industrial oven to bake the casting at a higher temperature than you'd ever see on the road to accomplish the same stress relief in days/hours rather than years. The question is whether they will (and at what cost).

    The other thing is that new iron castings usually still have sand stuck in various crevices and no amount of blasting & hot-tanking will get it all. A 100,000+ mile block has pretty much cycled all the loose sand out of it through the oil filter... A good machine shop can grind/polish away casting flash and smooth the internal surfaces of the block to remove all of the sand (the process also helps speed oil return) -- but again this is less of a necessity with seasoned blocks.


    So ultimately a new block can be made as strong as a seasoned block, it just takes time & money. For most builds that additional durability isn't required, but it's definitely a good idea when we're talking about 3-4hp/liter.

  8. #58
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spdu4ea Click here to enlarge
    Unless the blocks are now cast using superior materials and processes, seasoned blocks are generally preferred. In fact, the quality of new block castings often goes down when the car goes out of production and the work is farmed out to lesser facilities.
    Is that the case with these blocks? Is someone other than BMW producing them?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spdu4ea Click here to enlarge
    The other thing is that new iron castings usually still have sand stuck in various crevices and no amount of blasting & hot-tanking will get it all. A 100,000+ mile block has pretty much cycled all the loose sand out of it through the oil filter... A good machine shop can grind/polish away casting flash and smooth the internal surfaces of the block to remove all of the sand (the process also helps speed oil return) -- but again this is less of a necessity with seasoned blocks.
    Why doesn't aluminum have this problem?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spdu4ea Click here to enlarge
    So ultimately a new block can be made as strong as a seasoned block, it just takes time & money. For most builds that additional durability isn't required, but it's definitely a good idea when we're talking about 3-4hp/liter.
    I thought these blocks were not just regular S54 blocks but built to HPF specifications? Perhaps I am mistaken on that?

  9. #59
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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spdu4ea Click here to enlarge
    Unless the blocks are now cast using superior materials and processes, seasoned blocks are generally preferred. In fact, the quality of new block castings often goes down when the car goes out of production and the work is farmed out to lesser facilities.
    Not with a BMW block. BMW does not torque plate their motors at the factory. A "seasoned" S54 block will almost certainly require machine work to be used. Problem with the S54 is BMW designed it with the cylinder walls extremely close to one another. When you take a S54 down .020, you are really removing .040 between the cylinders. That leaves very little meat for the MLS gasket to seal good. That is why HPF was having problems with some of its earlier builds.

    Yes, as a general rule a seasoned block is better, however in this instance it is not. I chose a new block for my build.

  10. #60
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    Problem with the S54 is BMW designed it with the cylinder walls extremely close to one another
    True, but this was done to keep it compact and as far back as possible being an I6.

  11. #61
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Is that the case with these blocks? Is someone other than BMW producing them?
    I have no idea who is making them, or whether quality has dropped for S54 castings -- but it does happen sometimes (*cough* 2JZ *cough*)



    Why doesn't aluminum have this problem?
    The surface finish of aluminum is much smoother than cast iron -- less places for little particles to hide...



    I thought these blocks were not just regular S54 blocks but built to HPF specifications? Perhaps I am mistaken on that?
    Dunno. I read they were standard blocks -- just unbored so they could use 20-under pistons without sleeving.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    True, but this was done to keep it compact and as far back as possible being an I6.
    BMW engineers were not expecting someone to run 30+ PSI boost on them either. The sleeved blocks will most likely end up being the standard platform moving forward for high HP builds.

  13. #63
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spdu4ea Click here to enlarge
    Dunno. I read they were standard blocks -- just unbored so they could use 20-under pistons without sleeving.
    You may be correct, I'm not sure I remember being told by Chris they were being delivered how he wanted them.

    I would want them sleeved though...

  14. #64
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    BMW engineers were not expecting someone to run 30+ PSI boost on them either.
    Absolutely true, testament to how well built the motors are as well as the strength of the stock internals.

  15. #65
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    A "seasoned" S54 block will almost certainly require machine work to be used.
    All blocks will require machine work, its just that seasoned blocks will hold their dimensions better.

    If we're talking about seasoned overbore vs new underbore -- I'd probably go with the new underbore because that additional wall thickness is critical at high boost. But when talking about seasoned + sleeved 0.020 under vs new 0.020 under -- I'd go with the seasoned unless I knew the machine shop was going to go through all the extra steps to artificially season the new block too. Even then, I suspect that the iron alloy Darton uses for sleeves has superior properties to the block's standard cast iron.

  16. #66
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spdu4ea Click here to enlarge
    I suspect that the iron alloy Darton uses for sleeves has superior properties to the block's standard cast iron.
    This, is what would be the key factor for me.

    Why not new + sleeved?

  17. #67
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    This, is what would be the key factor for me.

    Why not new + sleeved?
    I suspect that Chris is being advised by his machine shop on what "things" to look at to improve the S54 block. This needs to be looked at from both a performance and a business perspective: They are symbiotic. If you could get a block that cost 1/2 as much as new+sleeved to do the same thing, I bet you'd sell a lot more of them. Make no mistake, Chris is looking in both areas....

  18. #68
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    I suspect that Chris is being advised by his machine shop on what "things" to look at to improve the S54 block. This needs to be looked at from both a performance and a business perspective: They are symbiotic. If you could get a block that cost 1/2 as much as new+sleeved to do the same thing, I bet you'd sell a lot more of them. Make no mistake, Chris is looking in both areas....
    A very good point. However, what is best for the prospective buyer, not for the bottom line?

  19. #69
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    A very good point. However, what is best for the prospective buyer, not for the bottom line?
    It's not that simple.

    Everyone sees that the Compuware Corvettes are running sleeved blocks at Le Mans, and assumes it's for strength. So they see the sleeve was done by Capricorn (Parent Company of Perfect Bore) and contact them to find out it had very little to do with strength.

    The main properties that engine designers look at with regard to a bore is how round it is, how straight it is, and the quality of the surface. I won't get into this too much, but people that believe a perfectly square cylinder block is optimal would be wrong. There are advantages to slightly tilting the cylinder bore depending on the crank design. On a V-8 for example, you might have a different angle for every bore on one bank. Basically, there is an optimal angle, and you want that angle to be kept true.

    What may be great for casting a cylinder block, may not be great for machine work. Better cylinder bore surfaces have an extremely uniform metalurgy from top to bottom, which gives a very consistent molecular structure for coatings to be applied.

    Remember the Corvettes I mentioned above? It was the coatings....that was the main reason why they used Perfect Bore (Capricorn) cylinder liners, because they have a proprietary coating that requires a very very consistent metalurgy.

    Now to be honest, I don't think HPF is thinking about cylinder coatings, or metal consistency which is important when doing precision machining. I think they are looking at strength, and reliability. Not everyone is trying to gain 0.5mpg efficiency to race at Le Mans.

  20. #70
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    Remember the Corvettes I mentioned above? It was the coatings....that was the main reason why they used Perfect Bore (Capricorn) cylinder liners, because they have a proprietary coating that requires a very very consistent metalurgy.
    I see, and this coating is more compatible with the material of the sleeves than of the block? Basically, what I'm wondering is if this cylinder coating can be used without the sleeves? Doesn't BMW use some proprietary coating with the S65?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    It's not that simple.
    No, definitely not. However, if costs are being saved on the block I'm wondering if that savings is being passed on to the consumer? If the sleeves are stronger (I would think they almost certainly are as Chris told me they are) I would think this is the preferred way to do it despite the added cost.

  21. #71
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    Personally, I think the most advanced cylinder bore on a production car was for the Ford GT.

  22. #72
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    Personally, I think the most advanced cylinder bore on a production car was for the Ford GT.
    For what reasons?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    For what reasons?
    They did something with that block that they didn't really tell anyone about. Then it leaked out later when people tried to "upgrade" the block, that something was different. It uses a spray-bore technology....no liner.

    Here's some info on what I was talking about with Capricorn...it's easier to send people to read this, than to explain what discussions I had with their engineers about developing the M54:

    http://www.capricorngroup.net/no_cac...BbackPid%5D=13

  24. #74
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    They did something with that block that they didn't really tell anyone about. Then it leaked out later when people tried to "upgrade" the block, that something was different. It uses a spray-bore technology....no liner.

    Here's some info on what I was talking about with Capricorn...it's easier to send people to read this, than to explain what discussions I had with their engineers about developing the M54:

    http://www.capricorngroup.net/no_cac...BbackPid%5D=13
    I'll read it but this is advanced, I'm not familiar at all with spray-bore technology.

  25. #75
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    capricorn has launched a new technology to reduce in cylinder friction its nickel ceramic coated liners. EST – Engineering Surface Technology is a process which alters the topography of the bore surface in areas of marginal lubrication by means of laser ablation. The new innovation in this product is the scientific understanding as to the frictional mechanisms that occur in-cylinder and the optimal pattern and position thereof to provide a benefit in operation. Additionally processing directly on to our well proven bore coating further enhances the overall system performance as say compared to processing on cast iron.

    Until now the technology has evolved in an empirical manner, generally applied over the whole surface and only on steel or in cast iron bores. The process has been developed over the last couple of years with Loughborough University where the primary drive has been a detailed understanding the underlying tribological science and thereby providing a clear direction as to the surface modifications required. In considering the piston and ring set assembly, the assembly undergoes, firstly, primary sinusoidal motion with momentary seizure in vertical velocity at top dead-centre and bottom dead-centre, and, a secondary motion involving a lateral and tilting motion within the bore. Established knowledge about this system indicates that the dominant lubrication regime is hydrodynamic during most of the stroke, with brief moments where partial lubrications or boundary lubrication regime prevail at TDC and BDC, or during fluctuating load conditions. This becomes apparent from the visible wear on cylinder bores.

    To this end we have developed, through analytical and numerical analysis, an approach to promote and improve the lubrication conditions throughout the cycle with particular emphasis to the top and bottom dead centres. A surface structuring applied by laser onto the surface of the liner within the nickel ceramic coated layer, in conjunction with a modified general surface finish creates improved lubrication conditions. The trials undertaken on a high-speed test engine on a transient dynamometer at Loughborough University, have shown increases in both power and torque – benefits also replicated by customer in-house testing.
    Lol that wall of text is probably the result of a poor language translation, but I couldn't help but be reminded of this gem:

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