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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    Bad idea. The stock ECU is not a turbo unit and does not have the kinds of compensations or abilities to properly manage a boosted motor. People do this all the time, but think of the absurdly high failure rate of aftermarket turbo motors. Tuning is everything with these. We have a stock compression ratio M52 right now making mid 3's with only 7psi of boost but its a roadrace car. Even on the hottest days it stays cool and has no issues with detonation. We run Suzuki Hayabusas at 12:1 compression and 10psi of boost for 330hp all the time - one of our in-house bikes went 206 in the standing mile on the same tires Rhys uses to commute to work every day. It has over 12,000 street miles in less than 2 years and runs excellent. The reason these do well is they have proper compensations for temp, pressures, etc. Please don't do the mistake of going with an underdeveloped engine management system or stock ECU return because, even if the car does well on the dyno, the uncertainties of the street or track will put it in situations that can cause lots of damage. I know this because most cars come to us not as fresh builds but as something that already was blown up once. There is no excuse for the high failure rates with these motors. It happens because people tune for the dyno and don't have a grasp on the real world, but they think if they live on the dyno that's all they need.

    I can't fathom doing this in 2010. There is no way to do a boost reduction based on engine operating parameters and you are guaranteeing slower response times. Why would you do this?

    Yes, this is what I sell for a living so I'm biased. But like I said, I do so much rework for other people's inadequate systems, I'm confident I'm in a position to speak about this with authority.

    -Neel
    Are you speaking of BMW FI cars?
    I'm confused.

    There are MANY, many E36 BMWs with very reliable street tunes w/ DME chip tunes.
    Have I missed a section of conversation?

    For a track dedicated, boosted car,
    I would expect a bit different control and failsafes,
    but I would also expect it to be tuned to the hilt to WIN!!!

    If tuned to the edge for racing,
    then failures will happen and engines are rebuilt regularly anyway.
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  2. #27
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    the fact that it was knocking at 300rwhp is a function of your poor tune. Seems like your misinformation stems from your experience of using poor tuners.
    Well, that poor tuner that was spreading misinformation would be me!

    Let's see, Jacob had a M52B25 that had bone stock internals. In our experience, they make about 155hp at the rear wheels with nearly 11:1 CR. With his turbo system, this car was detonating at around 300hp at the rear wheels on pump gas and 1 bar boost. That's an equivalent compression ratio of about 19:1. Please fill me in on what tricks you're using to nearly double the output of your stock internal M52's on pump gas without detonation, I'd like to know what I was doing wrong.

    Thanks,

    -Neel
    Neel Vasavada
    Apex Speed Technology
    2947 S Sepulveda Blvd
    Los Angeles, CA 90064
    310.314.2005 (p)
    310.496.0951 (f)
    www.apexspeedtech.com
    info@apexspeedtech.com

  3. #28
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    There are MANY, many E36 BMWs with very reliable street tunes w/ DME chip tunes.
    Have I missed a section of conversation?
    I am specifically talking about using DME chip tunes combined with wide-range MAF sensors, rising rate fuel regulators or piggyback controllers for turbo or supercharged conversions. For N/A cars, I agree that a DME chip tune is fine.

    For a track dedicated, boosted car,
    I would expect a bit different control and failsafes,
    but I would also expect it to be tuned to the hilt to WIN!!!

    If tuned to the edge for racing,
    then failures will happen and engines are rebuilt regularly anyway.
    Not at all. Many club-race cars have to last many seasons. Your comment about being "tuned to the hilt" is indicative of having poor engine management systems to work with. A proper tune will allow as aggressive a tune as conditions allow. Proper systems will have compensations in place so that they will retard timing, add fuel and reduce boost when conditions merit. We don't differentiate between our street tunes and race tunes other than fuel differences. Our engines are tuned to maximize torque regardless of whether its a pro-race car that is rebuilt every few races or if its a car that needs to last 200,000 miles.

    -Neel
    Neel Vasavada
    Apex Speed Technology
    2947 S Sepulveda Blvd
    Los Angeles, CA 90064
    310.314.2005 (p)
    310.496.0951 (f)
    www.apexspeedtech.com
    info@apexspeedtech.com

  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rt turbo Click here to enlarge
    dude, you need to be quite ifyou are talking about m50 based motors. M50tu's are not as strong, yes, but 450 still isnt that much with a compression drop. There are 500+rwhp m50s that have been running for years. those 10 mm arp 2000 studs have been tested to over 800rwhp!! Your 11mm with timeserts are actually a weaker setup.
    First of all you did not read the argument correctly! I have the raceware 11mm head studs made to be used on a non timecert application, they are useable right out of the box. So explain to me how having an extra mm is a weaker set up

  5. #30
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    This is a proven head stud application with my motor in this type of application, used by VAC motorsports!

  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rt turbo Click here to enlarge
    LOL, really dude? the dme's of these motors have actually been found to be quite capable. They are powerful units and we have seen 700+rwhp out of them ON STOCK BOTTOM END! Have you heard of Nick G, trm, etc? They all have been very successful with these dmes. The thing your not considering is that alot of aftermarket ecus dont have capabilities of tuning vanos. Hell, Im saying this and I run an aftermarket ecu.

    I agree here. I always tune on the street and bring to the dyno to verify. Dynos just dont produce accurate load that will be seen on the street. However, it is safer than making high mph pulls on the street.
    OMG r u serious where to start, okay how bout this the engine we are talking about is a m52tu! Again i stress we are talking about my engine a m52tu! Now that we have that out of the way, you bring up Nick g okay here is where your argument fails! His kit is for 330I e46 you are going to tell me that the stock bottom end of a 330i is the same as the m52tu? I would agree with you if we talking about the 330i motor. Go look at the kits available for my engine, AA and ess have the only available, not to mention they are superchargers, ever wonder why they only offer a kit that does not go above 7 psi! Um duh because any higher then that and they got knocking they tested it and it has been documented, i mean this is old news buddy! Show me proof of one other e46 323i m52tu dual vanos that has a turbo setup and uses stock internals to get 450rwhp and i will eat my words! But guess what it does not exist! Neel honestly don'y even waste your time responding to this guy anymore lol.

  7. #32
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    ok i have ranted now and thread jacked enough! I apologize to the op! i was just trying to save you the same heartache that i went through!

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jacobs323i Click here to enlarge
    Hey Sticky yes Apex is doing the re-tune, Neel can't set an exact date yet until the race season schedule comes out in Jan. then we can nail down a firm date! It will be sometime soon right after my daughter is born around April 20th or so.
    Awesome! By the way your pics are up.

  9. #34
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    I hope you are not right! But the guys that did the cryo race with a e46 bmw that was cryo treated and they have had no issue in 3 seasons i think? which for a race car is pretty amazing! Either way i do know the argument very well and what you have to say has alot of truth to it!

  10. #35
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    Brittle or not it is proven that aluminum does benefit from cryo treating. It has to be done right, it is very different to cryo steel let's say then aluminum. Meaning the process they use i.e. how hot they heat it up to get rid of heat pockets, then how slowly or quickly they bring it back to room temp, also how cold and how long the metals are in the machine, or even at what time amount do they bring back the temp from freezing. Like aluminum comes back from freezing a degree every hour, while they said that is diff. for steel. Also i would agree with you on how the risks out weighed the benefits when this technology was in its infancy, but now they have it down to a science! Or so they say, i guess only time will tell, and i do not disagree with you sir i am just hoping they are right and you are wrong lol!

  11. #36
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    I am specifically talking about using DME chip tunes combined with wide-range MAF sensors, rising rate fuel regulators or piggyback controllers for turbo or supercharged conversions. For N/A cars, I agree that a DME chip tune is fine.

    Not at all. Many club-race cars have to last many seasons. Your comment about being "tuned to the hilt" is indicative of having poor engine management systems to work with. A proper tune will allow as aggressive a tune as conditions allow. Proper systems will have compensations in place so that they will retard timing, add fuel and reduce boost when conditions merit. We don't differentiate between our street tunes and race tunes other than fuel differences. Our engines are tuned to maximize torque regardless of whether its a pro-race car that is rebuilt every few races or if its a car that needs to last 200,000 miles.

    -Neel
    My "many" was referring to a VERY many chip tunes for turbo and SC applications with a documented low percentage of failure.
    Your "absurdly high rate of failure" comment earlier is referring to FI DME chip tunes?
    In BMWs?

    Interested to view your source on that.

    Are you saying that E36/E46 BMW DME's do not have the ability to pull timing to protect the engine in dangerous instances?
    Click here to enlarge
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  12. #37
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    ALso i cryo'd all the engine parts i could which was nearly 95% of the engine including the fly wheel, and clutch for 500 bucks seems to be a cheap extra insurance policy for my project.

  13. #38
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    I'm confused. There are a ton of FI E36 BMWs successfully running tuned stock DMEs. Multiple, credible companies are tuning them - OBD1 and 2.

    Neel, could you explain your opinion further? In layman's terms of course!

  14. #39
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    My "many" was referring to a VERY many chip tunes for turbo and SC applications with a documented low percentage of failure.
    Your "absurdly high rate of failure" comment earlier is referring to FI DME chip tunes?
    In BMWs?

    Interested to view your source on that.
    I am the source on that. I run a business that does nothing but engine management. My absurdly high rates of failure comment refers precisely to the practice of adding forced induction to calls with stock engine management systems designed for NA applications. Nearly every forced induction conversion to standalone we do has a reflashed DME. They work up to a point, but as you add boost they become less capable of managing compensations.

    Are you saying that E36/E46 BMW DME's do not have the ability to pull timing to protect the engine in dangerous instances?
    Of course they have the ability to pull timing to protect the engine in dangerous instances - for an NA motor. But they don't operate on the proper control strategy to be effective 100% of the time. For example, good bespoke turbo control strategies with integrated closed-loop wastegate control have a ignition correction for wastegate target error. A stock DME that doesn't even know of the existence of a wastegate can't do this. So if there's an overboost spike due to a transient in a high exhaust backpressure scenario, you can get way too much advance for long enough to cause catastrophic detonation. Another scenario is the IAT compensations aren't characterized for the kinds of temps you'll see in a turbo application. So you may be idling in traffic on a hot day with the IAT sensor soaking as its in the stock MAF housing. Imagine you pull out to pass someone, have to lift and get back on it. Again, you get a momentary boost spike as the blow off doesn't vent the manifold properly, combined with loss of AIT resolution and the result is catastrophic detonation.

    We've seen these scenarios often and I find the failure rate absurd as its almost always necessary - its the result of inadequate control strategies, not any hardware or installation deficiencies. The more boost you run, the worse it gets. No doubt many people have forced induction cars that run fine on stock DMEs. I would suspect one reason you don't hear of the failure and we do is people are less likely to discuss their failures in public and at the same time, no one brings us cars that work well!

    People are welcome to take the advice of whoever they are most comfortable with. I've always been open about our biases here, but our experience is pretty comprehensive. On this forum I discuss BMW's but just glancing over at our production report for this week we are working on a Porsche 996, a 3.8 Air Cooled 911, Turbo Hayabusas, a 450cc Supercross bike, several 1000cc 4 cyilnder Superbikes, a 1190cc V-twin project, a single-rotor direct-injection R&D project, an EVO10, EVO9, WRX STi, a direct-injection LMP engine, a BMW S14, BMW S65 and 3 S54 systems. I draw my conclusions from our deep and varied experience in engine management systems.
    Last edited by Apex Speed Technology; 11-20-2010 at 08:59 PM.
    Neel Vasavada
    Apex Speed Technology
    2947 S Sepulveda Blvd
    Los Angeles, CA 90064
    310.314.2005 (p)
    310.496.0951 (f)
    www.apexspeedtech.com
    info@apexspeedtech.com

  15. #40
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by black bnr32 Click here to enlarge
    I'm confused. There are a ton of FI E36 BMWs successfully running tuned stock DMEs. Multiple, credible companies are tuning them - OBD1 and 2.

    Neel, could you explain your opinion further? In layman's terms of course!
    +1

    Its no secret the DME chips have done
    and will do fine
    for 300whp - 600whp (and intense torque to boot.)
    Yup

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    I am the source on that. I run a business that does nothing but engine management. Nearly every forced induction conversion to standalone we do has a reflashed DME. They work up to a point, but as you add boost they become less capable of managing compensations.

    Of course they have the ability to pull timing to protect the engine in dangerous instances - for an NA motor. But they don't operate on the proper control strategy to be 100% effective 100% of the time.
    You've seen some inefficiencies in the DME compensations.
    That makes sense.
    You have not, however, seen an absurd rate of failures.

    Unless we (the public consumers, such as Jacob, Black Beaner, I and others) NEED a completely FAILSAFE brain and component system
    to carry us around a track for a few years,
    and we plan to sacrifice the incredible ease with which to work on and diagnose our OEM systems
    and we decide to pay boatloads for such efficiency,
    we'll continue to use very reliable and compensating DME chip tunes for SIGNIFICANT power goals.

    Properly sorted standalones offer perfect safety compensations to protect the integrity of a person's high dollar, built and forged engine assembly.
    I understand.
    Click here to enlarge
    www
    milkt org

  16. #41
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    Well, that poor tuner that was spreading misinformation would be me!

    Let's see, Jacob had a M52B25 that had bone stock internals. In our experience, they make about 155hp at the rear wheels with nearly 11:1 CR. With his turbo system, this car was detonating at around 300hp at the rear wheels on pump gas and 1 bar boost. That's an equivalent compression ratio of about 19:1. Please fill me in on what tricks you're using to nearly double the output of your stock internal M52's on pump gas without detonation, I'd like to know what I was doing wrong.

    Thanks,

    -Neel
    edit re read your statement. I could have sworn Jacob said he had a compression drop via HG. If not, then it makes sense it detonated with stock compression. Even though many stock dme tuners manage to keep these motors detonation free for up to 380-400 rwhp on stock compression... I dunno. stock dme isnt capable right?

    The only point I see you having with tuning the stock dme for boost, is for application in excess of 700 rwtq. We have already seen dme tunes making well over 600wtq. I consider that more capable than you are giving it credit. I mean, for 450 rwhp, there are an abundance of stock dme cars running for better part of a decade. Are you saying that at the 450 rwhp level you are on borrowed time with a dme tune?
    Last edited by rt turbo; 11-20-2010 at 09:18 PM.
    | 1997 Estoril M3 - TURBO - |
    Click here to enlarge
    | GT3582R | 8.5:1 forged internals | ARP stuffs | SS oring block & Elring HG | Fully balanced & blueprinted 3.3L S52 |
    | Nick G custom tune | 46mm Precision gate | 62# injectors | Dual 255's |

    Goal to be the first GT35r E36 to: 30 psi, 140+ mph, < 6 second 60-130

  17. #42
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jacobs323i Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

    First of all you did not read the argument correctly! I have the raceware 11mm head studs made to be used on a non timecert application, they are useable right out of the box. So explain to me how having an extra mm is a weaker set up
    I had specifically said with timecerts. how are you running these without them? please clue us in, because with a stock 10mm threaded motor, you will need timecerts.
    | 1997 Estoril M3 - TURBO - |
    Click here to enlarge
    | GT3582R | 8.5:1 forged internals | ARP stuffs | SS oring block & Elring HG | Fully balanced & blueprinted 3.3L S52 |
    | Nick G custom tune | 46mm Precision gate | 62# injectors | Dual 255's |

    Goal to be the first GT35r E36 to: 30 psi, 140+ mph, < 6 second 60-130

  18. #43
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jacobs323i Click here to enlarge
    OMG r u serious where to start, okay how bout this the engine we are talking about is a m52tu! Again i stress we are talking about my engine a m52tu! Now that we have that out of the way, you bring up Nick g okay here is where your argument fails! His kit is for 330I e46 you are going to tell me that the stock bottom end of a 330i is the same as the m52tu? I would agree with you if we talking about the 330i motor. Go look at the kits available for my engine, AA and ess have the only available, not to mention they are superchargers, ever wonder why they only offer a kit that does not go above 7 psi! Um duh because any higher then that and they got knocking they tested it and it has been documented, i mean this is old news buddy! Show me proof of one other e46 323i m52tu dual vanos that has a turbo setup and uses stock internals to get 450rwhp and i will eat my words! But guess what it does not exist! Neel honestly don'y even waste your time responding to this guy anymore lol.
    read my commetns. I clearly said it looked like you were taling about an m52. I then said if you are talking about an m52tu then what I say is null.
    | 1997 Estoril M3 - TURBO - |
    Click here to enlarge
    | GT3582R | 8.5:1 forged internals | ARP stuffs | SS oring block & Elring HG | Fully balanced & blueprinted 3.3L S52 |
    | Nick G custom tune | 46mm Precision gate | 62# injectors | Dual 255's |

    Goal to be the first GT35r E36 to: 30 psi, 140+ mph, < 6 second 60-130

  19. #44
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    Neel, could you explain your opinion further? In layman's terms of course!
    My opinion, simply put is that as you run more boost and your engine build deviates more and more from stock, the ability of a stock DME tune to manage the timing and A/F ratio to ensure safe operation is diminished. This is because the stock system isn't capable of the level of compensation required to ensure safety after a certain point. Furthermore, since boost control is not integrated in the ECU, the boost pressure reduction can't be coordinated with timing & fuel injection pulsewidth.

    I'm not saying there isn't a place for DME tunes, I'm saying there's a point where they become risky from a safety standpoint. That point varies but in the examples given in this thread I certainly think a standalone is far safer than a DME reflash.

    -eel
    Neel Vasavada
    Apex Speed Technology
    2947 S Sepulveda Blvd
    Los Angeles, CA 90064
    310.314.2005 (p)
    310.496.0951 (f)
    www.apexspeedtech.com
    info@apexspeedtech.com

  20. #45
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    drop compression, larger cams, dial back timing until you dont detonate. not much really.
    My definition of stock internals is "as delivered from the factory from intake port to exhaust port." What you are saying certainly does not fit that criteria.

    Of course if you drop compression you can get away with less detonation! The real trick is making it preserving your low-speed drivability and off-boost response by running as high a static compression ratio as you can get away with. For street-driven cars this is especially important.

    -Neel
    Neel Vasavada
    Apex Speed Technology
    2947 S Sepulveda Blvd
    Los Angeles, CA 90064
    310.314.2005 (p)
    310.496.0951 (f)
    www.apexspeedtech.com
    info@apexspeedtech.com

  21. #46
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    My definition of stock internals is "as delivered from the factory from intake port to exhaust port." What you are saying certainly does not fit that criteria.

    Of course if you drop compression you can get away with less detonation! The real trick is making it preserving your low-speed drivability and off-boost response by running as high a static compression ratio as you can get away with. For street-driven cars this is especially important.

    -Neel
    Im getting confused on what the story was with that original motor. I though he said it was lower compression via hg. SO you see my thoughts on why 300rwhp would not be too much then? The M52 based iron block motors do run nearly 400whp with no detonation on stock compression. But that one is a different story. Not sure
    | 1997 Estoril M3 - TURBO - |
    Click here to enlarge
    | GT3582R | 8.5:1 forged internals | ARP stuffs | SS oring block & Elring HG | Fully balanced & blueprinted 3.3L S52 |
    | Nick G custom tune | 46mm Precision gate | 62# injectors | Dual 255's |

    Goal to be the first GT35r E36 to: 30 psi, 140+ mph, < 6 second 60-130

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    No the head gasket was not replaced till i rebuilt my engine, therefore we are talking about a totally bone stock engine when he first tuned.

  23. #48
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    Hey sticky i did mispost my posts in this thread could you possibly move to my build thread? it was post 34 35 37 lol i do not know how that happened?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jacobs323i Click here to enlarge
    Hey sticky i did mispost my posts in this thread could you possibly move to my build thread? it was post 34 35 37 lol i do not know how that happened?
    I already copied them over, don't worry about it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I already copied them over, don't worry about it.
    I saw that thanks!

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