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    stock internal dyno #'s turbo M50tu or m52

    Thinking about boosting my m52 or picking up a M50tu; goal is to make 450whp on racegas . I wanna see what dyno#'s for various turbo sizes and setups with stock internals w/HG and ARP2000's

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    Click here to enlargeYou will never reach your goal with stock internals! Well maybe for like one pull before ka-boom! I have a fully built m52tu with all the supporting mods, and i make 450rwhp on pump with meth. Any questions pm i would me more then happy to assist you. 2 things off the bat what kind of money are you looking at for your budget? And have you thought about a supercharger installed it woul dbe less then 7,000 aa has all kinds of deals going on. Oh also for those numbers forget about the arp use race ware head studs 11mm

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sje36m52 Click here to enlarge
    Thinking about boosting my m52 or picking up a M50tu; goal is to make 450whp on racegas . I wanna see what dyno#'s for various turbo sizes and setups with stock internals w/HG and ARP2000's
    You will absolutely be able to reach 450 rwhp on stock M52 internals. Without race gas, even.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jacobs323i Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlargeYou will never reach your goal with stock internals! Well maybe for like one pull before ka-boom! I have a fully built m52tu with all the supporting mods, and i make 450rwhp on pump with meth. Any questions pm i would me more then happy to assist you. 2 things off the bat what kind of money are you looking at for your budget? And have you thought about a supercharger installed it woul dbe less then 7,000 aa has all kinds of deals going on. Oh also for those numbers forget about the arp use race ware head studs 11mm
    Sheesh - fully built and only 450 rwhp!? Do not use 11mm head studs, you need to timesert them for them to hold correctly, stay 10mm and get the ARP 2000s from TRM (newer version).

    I have a fully built M50 and make much more than 450 on pump and meth.


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    The horsepower goal is going to be a trade-off on lag/heat. You can have a larger/newer/laggier turbo that will be much easier on your engine to hit target because it will have lower cylinder temperatures than trying to do with a smaller, more responsive one.

    I agree, you shouldn't have to build your motor. With the right static compression from the headgasket, the right tuning, and those ARP head studs (very nice, using in my 300zx build!) you should be able to have a reliable 450whp, especially on race gas!

    Tuning is VERY important, and be sure to ALWAYS have A/F ratio, EGT, boost, oil pressure, coolant and oil temp monitored. A high quality knock sensor would be useful as well, but they are kind of tricky.

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    I disagree about the turbo. Obviously you won't want a GT25 or something like that, but having a larger turbo and it being laggier can cause MORE stress - its a sudden rush of torque vs a linear build. Sure its experienced later in the rev range but when it does come on the power can be stressful on bearings and such. On the flip side, a GT30 would be much more linear, but require the engine withstand torque more of the time, which can have detrimental effect on bearings if the the powerband is so wide that oil pressure isn't very high down low.

    But, really, a GT35R will make 450 rwhp on an M52 with a 9:1 CR (via HG) with ease and not be too laggy. Also, traditionally, newer turbos (implying billet, maybe dbb or tbb) are usually less laggy. But I would rather have a GT3582R doing 450 rwhp than a PT76 doing 450 rwhp. IATs shouldn't be very high.


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    I disagree about the turbo. Obviously you won't want a GT25 or something like that, but having a larger turbo and it being laggier can cause MORE stress - its a sudden rush of torque vs a linear build. Sure its experienced later in the rev range but when it does come on the power can be stressful on bearings and such. On the flip side, a GT30 would be much more linear, but require the engine withstand torque more of the time, which can have detrimental effect on bearings if the the powerband is so wide that oil pressure isn't very high down low.

    But, really, a GT35R will make 450 rwhp on an M52 with a 9:1 CR (via HG) with ease and not be too laggy. Also, traditionally, newer turbos (implying billet, maybe dbb or tbb) are usually less laggy. But I would rather have a GT3582R doing 450 rwhp than a PT76 doing 450 rwhp. IATs shouldn't be very high.
    Yes, you are saying the same thing, I was just being very general. sje36m52, you should try and get a hold of one of those new Garrett GTX3582R turbos!

    They are part of Garrett's newest turbo lineup and is perfectly sized for your goal plus more.

    EDIT: Actually, one of Borg Warner's new turbos, the EFR 7670 would be suitable, and probably (most likely) less laggy than the GTX3582R. You can get it with electronic wastegate actuator, a speed port for the turbine RPM and have it internally waste-gated without sacrificing much power or boost control.

    Here is a thread I made on them: http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...ht=borg+warner
    Last edited by fundahl; 11-16-2010 at 02:50 PM.

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    450 rwhp is all i want, i could get plenty more just don't want it i want my car to last.
    Last edited by jacobs323i; 11-16-2010 at 02:56 PM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    You will absolutely be able to reach 450 rwhp on stock M52 internals. Without race gas, even.



    Sheesh - fully built and only 450 rwhp!? Do not use 11mm head studs, you need to timesert them for them to hold correctly, stay 10mm and get the ARP 2000s from TRM (newer version).

    I have a fully built M50 and make much more than 450 on pump and meth.

    LOL ya you will reach your goal, but it will last about as long as those 10mm head studs LOL!
    Last edited by jacobs323i; 11-16-2010 at 03:02 PM. Reason: just cause

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    good luck!
    Last edited by jacobs323i; 11-16-2010 at 03:01 PM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jacobs323i Click here to enlarge
    LOL ya you will reach your goal, but it will last about as long as those 10mm head studs LOL!
    We have members running the new ARP2000 10mm studs at over 850 rwhp for 9.2x sec 1/4 miles and 4 second 60-130s.... for hundreds of runs no issue.

    Sounds like you have an installation issue Click here to enlarge

    11mm is a very, very poor choice. Who wants to replace a 10mm stud hole with an insert for 1mm and no engineering? TRM re-engineered the 10mm ARP stud kit (hence the NEW stud kit available, non-undercut ARP 2000 alloy with new lubricant). Raceware just offers an 11mm stud in the same length as the BMW stud kit. I have 1/2" ARP2000's in my car and am going back to 10mm in my new motor.


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    Yes, you are saying the same thing, I was just being very general. sje36m52, you should try and get a hold of one of those new Garrett GTX3582R turbos!

    They are part of Garrett's newest turbo lineup and is perfectly sized for your goal plus more.

    EDIT: Actually, one of Borg Warner's new turbos, the EFR 7670 would be suitable, and probably (most likely) less laggy than the GTX3582R. You can get it with electronic wastegate actuator, a speed port for the turbine RPM and have it internally waste-gated without sacrificing much power or boost control.

    Here is a thread I made on them: http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...ht=borg+warner
    No electronic wastegate actuator, just a solenoid built in for pulsing to the mechanical IWG. Truth is, once prices are released I think these will be less of an option. I am picturing $2000+. Also, they do not conform to standard garrett whole-footprint packaging at all, and therefore, given how GT35's fit on the bottom mount manifolds on E36s already, these will likely not fit at all.


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    No electronic wastegate actuator, just a solenoid built in for pulsing to the mechanical IWG. Truth is, once prices are released I think these will be less of an option. I am picturing $2000+. Also, they do not conform to standard garrett whole-footprint packaging at all, and therefore, given how GT35's fit on the bottom mount manifolds on E36s already, these will likely not fit at all.
    Yes, the new turbine housing is longer, it would be tougher to fit, fabricate a new downpipe and I bet they are pricey as well. If someone did use them it would be neat though!

    I agree the Garrett will be much more of a "bolt-on" solution.

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    With the right head gasket 450 whp can be done but will it last? I don't know the answer to that.

    I am a bit surprised jacob's car is putting down only 450 whp with a built motor and people are saying 450 whp is no sweat even without race gas. I think forums portrayals and reality may be different but I would expect a built M52 to be able to take a good beating.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Ok so stock internals it can be done. I have a setup that i came up with maybe you experienced FI can chime and tell me if its good or bad
    M52b28
    S52 cams
    VAC Headgasket kit .140
    T4 PTE 6262 turbo .58 or .68 a.r
    T4 topmount manifold
    tial 44mm wastegate
    tial 50mm bov
    31x12x3 fmic
    walbro 255lph fp
    porsche 803 maf
    42 lb hr injectors w/tune
    clutch of some sort

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    With the right head gasket 450 whp can be done but will it last? I don't know the answer to that.

    I am a bit surprised jacob's car is putting down only 450 whp with a built motor and people are saying 450 whp is no sweat even without race gas. I think forums portrayals and reality may be different but I would expect a built M52 to be able to take a good beating.
    It absolutely will last. FWIW, I have no idea what power I was making, but I had a 100% stock M50 with a holset H1E running 16 psi on a stock original (as in, never changed evar) headgasket up to 200k miles. Was probably in the 380 - 400 hp area. I wouldn't even run a 0.140" MLS - I'd run a .090" and get the compression around 9 - 9.5:1 and run 450 rwhp for years to come. That power level is easy to attain. A built motor for that power level is almost depressing!




    Why are you going T4? Go T3 so you don't lag so much. Even a .58 T4 is going to lag more than a .81/.82 T3 and your power level doesn't require a T4 turbo.


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    would a t3 .82 a/r pte 6262 be laggy on m52?

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Keep in mind two things, one my car has to be retuned, so 450 rwhp is a guestimate between the tuner and i based upon what i had on the car before when he tuned it first. Also I want my car to last for a long time, and before i rebuilt the engine when he tuned it he wa getting knocking around 300rwhp . SO again i say it will work it just wont last very long, or if you have one little slip up your engine will be toast! Now that being said Urine Machine, your are saying you had donbe this on your m50 engine well an m50 is not a m52tu, also as i said before i could easily be at the 550 rwhp range if i wanted but i do not i want my car to last, and be a usable dd.

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    my car is a daily driver that swapped an m52b28 in. i am gonna pickup another m52b28 for $500 to use for my turbo project

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jacobs323i Click here to enlarge
    Keep in mind two things, one my car has to be retuned, so 450 rwhp is a guestimate between the tuner and i based upon what i had on the car before when he tuned it first. Also I want my car to last for a long time, and before i rebuilt the engine when he tuned it he wa getting knocking around 300rwhp . SO again i say it will work it just wont last very long, or if you have one little slip up your engine will be toast! Now that being said Urine Machine, your are saying you had donbe this on your m50 engine well an m50 is not a m52tu, also as i said before i could easily be at the 550 rwhp range if i wanted but i do not i want my car to last, and be a usable dd.
    When is your car getting retuned? Apex is doing it, right?
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    When is your car getting retuned? Apex is doing it, right?
    Hey Sticky yes Apex is doing the re-tune, Neel can't set an exact date yet until the race season schedule comes out in Jan. then we can nail down a firm date! It will be sometime soon right after my daughter is born around April 20th or so.

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    Don't undervalue your engine management

    Tuning is VERY important, and be sure to ALWAYS have A/F ratio, EGT, boost, oil pressure, coolant and oil temp monitored. A high quality knock sensor would be useful as well, but they are kind of tricky.
    porsche 803 maf
    42 lb hr injectors w/tune
    Bad idea. The stock ECU is not a turbo unit and does not have the kinds of compensations or abilities to properly manage a boosted motor. People do this all the time, but think of the absurdly high failure rate of aftermarket turbo motors. Tuning is everything with these. We have a stock compression ratio M52 right now making mid 3's with only 7psi of boost but its a roadrace car. Even on the hottest days it stays cool and has no issues with detonation. We run Suzuki Hayabusas at 12:1 compression and 10psi of boost for 330hp all the time - one of our in-house bikes went 206 in the standing mile on the same tires Rhys uses to commute to work every day. It has over 12,000 street miles in less than 2 years and runs excellent. The reason these do well is they have proper compensations for temp, pressures, etc. Please don't do the mistake of going with an underdeveloped engine management system or stock ECU return because, even if the car does well on the dyno, the uncertainties of the street or track will put it in situations that can cause lots of damage. I know this because most cars come to us not as fresh builds but as something that already was blown up once. There is no excuse for the high failure rates with these motors. It happens because people tune for the dyno and don't have a grasp on the real world, but they think if they live on the dyno that's all they need.

    No electronic wastegate actuator, just a solenoid built in for pulsing to the mechanical IWG.
    I can't fathom doing this in 2010. There is no way to do a boost reduction based on engine operating parameters and you are guaranteeing slower response times. Why would you do this?

    Yes, this is what I sell for a living so I'm biased. But like I said, I do so much rework for other people's inadequate systems, I'm confident I'm in a position to speak about this with authority.

    -Neel
    Neel Vasavada
    Apex Speed Technology
    2947 S Sepulveda Blvd
    Los Angeles, CA 90064
    310.314.2005 (p)
    310.496.0951 (f)
    www.apexspeedtech.com
    info@apexspeedtech.com

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jacobs323i Click here to enlarge
    LOL ya you will reach your goal, but it will last about as long as those 10mm head studs LOL!
    dude, you need to be quite ifyou are talking about m50 based motors. M50tu's are not as strong, yes, but 450 still isnt that much with a compression drop. There are 500+rwhp m50s that have been running for years. those 10 mm arp 2000 studs have been tested to over 800rwhp!! Your 11mm with timeserts are actually a weaker setup.
    Last edited by rt turbo; 11-20-2010 at 01:05 PM.
    | 1997 Estoril M3 - TURBO - |
    Click here to enlarge
    | GT3582R | 8.5:1 forged internals | ARP stuffs | SS oring block & Elring HG | Fully balanced & blueprinted 3.3L S52 |
    | Nick G custom tune | 46mm Precision gate | 62# injectors | Dual 255's |

    Goal to be the first GT35r E36 to: 30 psi, 140+ mph, < 6 second 60-130

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jacobs323i Click here to enlarge
    Keep in mind two things, one my car has to be retuned, so 450 rwhp is a guestimate between the tuner and i based upon what i had on the car before when he tuned it first. Also I want my car to last for a long time, and before i rebuilt the engine when he tuned it he wa getting knocking around 300rwhp . SO again i say it will work it just wont last very long, or if you have one little slip up your engine will be toast! Now that being said Urine Machine, your are saying you had donbe this on your m50 engine well an m50 is not a m52tu, also as i said before i could easily be at the 550 rwhp range if i wanted but i do not i want my car to last, and be a usable dd.
    the fact that it was knocking at 300rwhp is a function of your poor tune. Seems like your misinformation stems from your experience of using poor tuners. 450rwhp is weak for a built motor. You absolutely do not need to build your m50 for only 450rwhp. It is no more reliable given you have good tunes at that power level. Hell, your built motor will still blow on 450rwhp if your tune sucks. Just because you have a built motor doesnt mean you reduce chances to detonate. again, that is a function of your tune/gas. If you were knocking at 300rwhp, something in your setup was performing properly.
    Last edited by rt turbo; 11-20-2010 at 01:06 PM.
    | 1997 Estoril M3 - TURBO - |
    Click here to enlarge
    | GT3582R | 8.5:1 forged internals | ARP stuffs | SS oring block & Elring HG | Fully balanced & blueprinted 3.3L S52 |
    | Nick G custom tune | 46mm Precision gate | 62# injectors | Dual 255's |

    Goal to be the first GT35r E36 to: 30 psi, 140+ mph, < 6 second 60-130

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    Bad idea. The stock ECU is not a turbo unit and does not have the kinds of compensations or abilities to properly manage a boosted motor. People do this all the time, but think of the absurdly high failure rate of aftermarket turbo motors. Tuning is everything with these. We have a stock compression ratio M52 right now making mid 3's with only 7psi of boost but its a roadrace car.
    LOL, really dude? the dme's of these motors have actually been found to be quite capable. They are powerful units and we have seen 700+rwhp out of them ON STOCK BOTTOM END! Have you heard of Nick G, trm, etc? They all have been very successful with these dmes. The thing your not considering is that alot of aftermarket ecus dont have capabilities of tuning vanos. Hell, Im saying this and I run an aftermarket ecu.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    There is no excuse for the high failure rates with these motors. It happens because people tune for the dyno and don't have a grasp on the real world, but they think if they live on the dyno that's all they need.
    l
    I agree here. I always tune on the street and bring to the dyno to verify. Dynos just dont produce accurate load that will be seen on the street. However, it is safer than making high mph pulls on the street.
    | 1997 Estoril M3 - TURBO - |
    Click here to enlarge
    | GT3582R | 8.5:1 forged internals | ARP stuffs | SS oring block & Elring HG | Fully balanced & blueprinted 3.3L S52 |
    | Nick G custom tune | 46mm Precision gate | 62# injectors | Dual 255's |

    Goal to be the first GT35r E36 to: 30 psi, 140+ mph, < 6 second 60-130

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    Not the right way to go....

    LOL, really dude? the dme's of these motors have actually been found to be quite capable. They are powerful units and we have seen 700+rwhp out of them ON STOCK BOTTOM END!
    Yes, really dude. The capabilities of the stock DME are actually the main problem - they are not capable of making the proper adjustments to manage a force-induction motor. You can make 1000hp with a stock DME. You can make 1000hp by ditching all the electronics and running a blow-through carburetor setup and a magneto. And what does a stock bottom end have to do with anything electronic? But engine management isn't about dyno numbers or even how well it works with some street tuning.

    I'm not talking about the ability to make horsepower. I'm talking about the ability to compensate for variable loads and environments. The "power" of the stock ECU is irrelevant. The functionality is what matters here, and the stock ECU control strategy is not meant for above ambient manifold pressures or the kinds of intake temps you see with a forced induction application. So they can't compensate - or more accurately, aren't even designed to deal with the situation. Some installers cut costs by fooling the stock ECU with a wider-range MAF and different injectors, with NO integrated boost control strategy. No less than a dozen cars tuned on stock ECUs end up in my shop every year because they blew up after a great "street and dyno" tune. Even if the car is tuned conservatively so there aren't issues, you'll be far less than optimized for good performance in many situations.

    Have you heard of Nick G, trm, etc? They all have been very successful with these dmes.
    Yes, and its the aftermarket DME re-tunes that I end up replacing with standalones. I've said this before - a car almost NEVER ends up in our hands for a fresh install. They find their way to us with a reprogrammed stock ECU, rising rate fuel regulator, piggyback or some other tuning measure installed on them first that isn't working out very well.

    The thing your not considering is that alot of aftermarket ecus dont have capabilities of tuning vanos.
    And another thing I've gone on record saying is there's NO reason to ever install an ECU in a BMW application that doesn't run VANOS. The prices for VANOS-capable ECUs have come down to the point where its a major mistake to purchase an ECU that doesn't.

    People have used stock ECUs, piggybacks, ECUs that don't support VANOS and other compromise solutions for many years, and I don't doubt they will continue to. Its my experience that these solutions are neither good for performance or cutting costs in the long run.

    -Neel
    Neel Vasavada
    Apex Speed Technology
    2947 S Sepulveda Blvd
    Los Angeles, CA 90064
    310.314.2005 (p)
    310.496.0951 (f)
    www.apexspeedtech.com
    info@apexspeedtech.com

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