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  1. #1
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    Dont Drink the Puprle Kool-Aid? Meth related discussion

    "Donít Drink the Purple Kool-Aid
    Turbo gurus, blindly following false prophets, preach the doctrine of "You Canít Run Them Too Rich" and demand that you slay the infidel detonation by richening things ad infinitum. They should have read Sir Harryís Book, The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine, but as they say, those who do not know history are destined to repeat the same mistakes. Sir Harry Ricardo proved once and for all that you can richen things up to a point but, beyond this, detonation is going to rear itís head no matter how much fuel you throw at it and, in fact, the extra fuel may increase the tendency to detonate! Going rich beyond the well-defined 12.5:1 boost maximum power air fuel ratio is going to cost you power.
    Studies in the early part of the Second World War proved conclusively that as you add water you can lean out your overly rich mixtures as you raise your boost pressures. As Sir Harry Ricardo stated..."By the introduction of water...the fuel/air ratio could be reduced once again; in fact, with water injection, no appreciable advantage was found from the use of an over-rich fuel/air mixture". So much for those whose perspective begins with their birth date.

    I Donít Want To Learn...Just Give Me The Answers! Click here to enlarge
    1. Maximum Torque occurs at a 13.2:1 Air Fuel Ratio.
    2. Transitional Fueling and Maximum Boost Air Fuel Ratios are about 12.5:1.
    3. Water Injection is most efficient with a 50/50 water alcohol (or methanol) mixture.
    4. Methanol, as an additive, is not a practical choice as it is prone to pre-ignition in higher than 50/50 percentages.
    5. Denatured (ethanol) alcohol, typically 95% pure, is available in paint, hardware, and Home Depot type stores in gallon containers for about $10.00. Expensive but available everywhere. Isopropyl alcohol can be used but it is often 30% or more water by content.
    6. Water Injection allows ignition timing to be more aggressive or closer to stock. In other words boost does not automatically mean retard your timing.
    7. Excessive amounts of ignition retard will cause a loss of power and overheating.
    8. Water to Fuel ratios should be based on weight and not volume.
    9 . Water weighs 8.33 lb per gallon.
    10. Alcohol weighs 6.63 lb per gallon.
    11. Air weighs .080645 lb per cubic foot. It takes about 150 cubic feet of air per 100 horsepower. It takes about 12 lb of air per 100 horsepower.
    12. Water or Water / Alcohol to Fuel Ratios are between 12.5% to 25%. This means Air to Fluid Ratios are between 11.1:1 and 10.0:1 with water injection.
    13. Atomization of the water mixture is directly related to it effectiveness. Finer droplets cool the inlet charge better and with less mass they navigate the inlet plenum easier for more equal water distribution.
    14. Donít flow water through an intercooler.
    15. Atomized water, just like fuel , does not like to make turns thus making accurate distribution something to think about. This is why port fuel injection is the norm. Water is a fluid just like your fuel. Using two staged nozzles at high pressure is the best practical solution. Using individual port nozzles is a bit complicated for a large # of cylinders and makes control difficult.
    16. The introduction of water will allow higher boost pressures to be run without detonation. Higher pressures will increase torque. Itís always about torque.
    17. Racing high octane gasoline should be used for all forms of competition and for higher than normal boost levels. Water injection as well as charge cooling should be used with racing gas. 91/92 Octane pump gas simply will not cut it. Water spray cooling of the intercooler is a good idea.
    18. Fuel Injectors operate in the 1 Millisecond range (.001 second) and are not capable of long term usage for H20 as they will corrode or rust shut in a very short period of time.

    20. Fuel Injection pumps cannot be used for water injection. Water is conductive. Gasoline is not. Water will corrode an efi pump shut in a very short period of time.
    22. Water injection has a cooling effect on the engine head, valves, and cylinder. Exhaust temperatures (EGT) are largely unaffected at recommended water / fuel ratios.
    23. The cooling of potential hot spots in the combustion chamber defeats pre-ignition, the most destructive form of uncontrolled or unplanned combustion.
    24. Higher static compression ratios will require a higher percentage of water or water / alcohol.
    25. No, water does not burn. We are not combusting the hydrogen in the H2O.
    26. At around 13.2:1 or fuel air ratios of .75, EGTís will peak.

    27. People will try to selectively edit their way to get you to use water injection by stating "One can basically double the power output of an engine using water/methanol" and "It was used effectively in Formula 1 before being banned for adding too much power". This is pure bunk. Water or water/alcohol/methanol does not make power...superchargers and turbochargers make power. The cooling effect of the water injection only allows you to run higher boost pressures and leaner mixtures without engine damage. The increased density or higher pressure ratio is what makes the power, not the water. The last time we checked water wasn't a very good fuel. Water Injection definitely does not give "a 5-15% increase in fuel economy" as some marketers clain.

    28. Ferrari suspended water in their fuel during their 1980ís Formula1 period. We donít recommend that you try this...although Acetone will mix with water."



  2. #2
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    Nice read LM. Good refresher.
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

    Other people eat shit and die.

    I'm not racist, I hate everybody equally; especially fat people.


    Click here to enlarge

  3. #3
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    nice

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    Good notes
    Click here to enlarge

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    Nice read!

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    i think #4 is one of the most important notes on there.

  7. #7
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    Or you can simply log your car and find many of those facts to be bull$#@!.

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    Laloosh, did you ever get the Lebonte failsafe issue I was reading about on the other site figured out? Last I read it wasn't the tune, but, probable ifs-30 failure? This would help considering I'm making a decision on it and I know you speak your mind freely. thx.

  9. #9
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    Nice to kinda clear the $#@! storm that's been flying around.

  10. #10
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    very nice post
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    "Don’t Drink the Purple Kool-Aid Turbo gurus, blindly following false prophets, preach the doctrine of "You Can’t Run Them Too Rich" and demand that you slay the infidel detonation by richening things ad infinitum. They should have read Sir Harry’s Book, The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine, but as they say, those who do not know history are destined to repeat the same mistakes. Sir Harry Ricardo proved once and for all that you can richen things up to a point but, beyond this, detonation is going to rear it’s head no matter how much fuel you throw at it and, in fact, the extra fuel may increase the tendency to detonate! Going rich beyond the well-defined 12.5:1 boost maximum power air fuel ratio is going to cost you power. Studies in the early part of the Second World War proved conclusively that as you add water you can lean out your overly rich mixtures as you raise your boost pressures. As Sir Harry Ricardo stated..."By the introduction of water...the fuel/air ratio could be reduced once again; in fact, with water injection, no appreciable advantage was found from the use of an over-rich fuel/air mixture". So much for those whose perspective begins with their birth date.
    i didnt write it, some with a alot more knowledge that anyone i met, on any board did.. so go figure..

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    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlargeClick here to enlarge Click here to enlarge
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  13. #13
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    So they're saying 50/50 is the best mix ? , When I did 50/50 mix my car felt like I've never even installed meth , 80/20 was much better 95% felt like a rocket

  14. #14
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    50/50 by weight, not volume
    Click here to enlarge

  15. #15
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    0o0o0oo0oo0o0 so what's the valume then ? for 1 gallon ?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by n54BoostOnCoke Click here to enlarge
    0o0o0oo0oo0o0 so what's the valume then ? for 1 gallon ?
    Just pour in more meth than water, like 2/3.

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    more water for better IAT cooling, more meth for more octane... FWIW I run 100% meth and the car likes it.
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

    Other people eat shit and die.

    I'm not racist, I hate everybody equally; especially fat people.


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  18. #18
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    That was all written by someone who clearly stopped learning/trying new things in the 1980s. Mostly fact, some fiction -- could be dangerous for someone to blindly follow...

  19. #19
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spdu4ea Click here to enlarge
    That was all written by someone who clearly stopped learning/trying new things in the 1980s. Mostly fact, some fiction -- could be dangerous for someone to blindly follow...
    You usually have a pretty good grasp on the technical, why not address those points specifically especially what you consider dangerous?

  20. #20
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spdu4ea Click here to enlarge
    That was all written by someone who clearly stopped learning/trying new things in the 1980s. Mostly fact, some fiction -- could be dangerous for someone to blindly follow...
    explain otherwise, tell us what you know, tried since your testing in the 80's.

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    1. Maximum Torque occurs at a 13.2:1 Air Fuel Ratio.

    Way way way oversimplified. Inefficient heads will generally like to be a little richer. Or perhaps you get more power going slightly richer but with more timing. Or maybe you get more power going with more boost and richer. There are tons of variables that affect engine power (boost, ignition timing, cam timing, afr, rpm, etc) -- saying "$#@! it, lets run 13.2 all the time" isn't going to be optimal (let alone safe).



    2. Transitional Fueling and Maximum Boost Air Fuel Ratios are about 12.5:1.

    At least he used "about" this time...



    3. Water Injection is most efficient with a 50/50 water alcohol (or methanol) mixture.

    There is no mention of how he defines efficiency, but I'm going to assume he's talking about making maximum power on his bonneville turbo motorcycles running race gas. For that, 50/50 is probably about right. On 91 octane 100% meth will kick 50/50's ass all day.



    4. Methanol, as an additive, is not a practical choice as it is prone to pre-ignition in higher than 50/50 percentages.

    When your base fuel has a MON of 116, then sure, an "additive" with a MON of 105 might well increase knock at high ratios. When your base fuel has a MON of 85 -- this isn't the case.



    5. Denatured (ethanol) alcohol, typically 95% pure, is available in paint, hardware, and Home Depot type stores in gallon containers for about $10.00. Expensive but available everywhere. Isopropyl alcohol can be used but it is often 30% or more water by content.

    Fine if you're just using it to lower IATs, but I certainly wouldn't want to interchange Isopropyl alcohol (RON 108) with methanol (RON 119) if you're relying on the meth as additional fueling (HPF m3's)



    6. Water Injection allows ignition timing to be more aggressive or closer to stock. In other words boost does not automatically mean retard your timing.

    It wards off preignition. What you do after that goes back to point #1 -- change cam timing? ignition timing? boost? AFR? depends on the car/setup and will almost certainly be found out through trial and error.



    7. Excessive amounts of ignition retard will cause a loss of power and overheating.

    Excessive excess sucks



    8. Water to Fuel ratios should be based on weight and not volume.

    It makes no difference as long as you're consistent. Liquids do not expand/contract enough to matter, so saying you want 50% water by weight will ultimately be the same as saying you want 56% water by volume. Air Fuel ratios should always be based on weight because the volume of air changes dramatically with atmospheric conditions.



    9 . Water weighs 8.33 lb per gallon.

    Maybe at Bonneville -- 8.34 lbs here @ sea level. You must have been on the committee that decided a pound of reefer would only be 448g



    10. Alcohol weighs 6.63 lb per gallon.

    Which alcohol?



    11. Air weighs .080645 lb per cubic foot. It takes about 150 cubic feet of air per 100 horsepower. It takes about 12 lb of air per 100 horsepower.

    Per minute. CFM /= F^3



    12. Water or Water / Alcohol to Fuel Ratios are between 12.5% to 25%. This means Air to Fluid Ratios are between 11.1:1 and 10.0:1 with water injection.

    Again, that might be handy for those running Race gas and 50/50, but not useful for those using meth as a fuel (engines running on pure meth are in the 5-6:1 range)



    13. Atomization of the water mixture is directly related to it effectiveness. Finer droplets cool the inlet charge better and with less mass they navigate the inlet plenum easier for more equal water distribution.

    I suspect he's full of hot air on the distribution part, but yes finer is better.



    14. Donít flow water through an intercooler.

    Damn, and I just bought a liquid/air IC too Click here to enlarge



    15. Atomized water, just like fuel , does not like to make turns thus making accurate distribution something to think about. This is why port fuel injection is the norm. Water is a fluid just like your fuel. Using two staged nozzles at high pressure is the best practical solution. Using individual port nozzles is a bit complicated for a large # of cylinders and makes control difficult.

    This is true, and seemingly contradicts your earlier point about finer sprays making turns better



    16. The introduction of water will allow higher boost pressures to be run without detonation. Higher pressures will increase torque. Itís always about torque.

    You were doing so well until you opened your mouth about torque... Power is what matters 99.9% of the time.



    17. Racing high octane gasoline should be used for all forms of competition and for higher than normal boost levels. Water injection as well as charge cooling should be used with racing gas. 91/92 Octane pump gas simply will not cut it. Water spray cooling of the intercooler is a good idea.

    Click here to enlarge

  22. #22
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    ^ That's what I'm talking about Click here to enlarge Nice post.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spdu4ea Click here to enlarge
    17. Racing high octane gasoline should be used for all forms of competition and for higher than normal boost levels. Water injection as well as charge cooling should be used with racing gas. 91/92 Octane pump gas simply will not cut it. Water spray cooling of the intercooler is a good idea.
    Oh and yes, I roll my eyes at this as well.

  24. #24
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    Nows thats a good post. It does seem however that you agree with a lot of what was stated.

    But since im not the OP, i posted it for just what you did, the conversation on the topic

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