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  1. #51
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge

    It is generally my policy not to post charts. Those are the sole property of my customers and it is up to them to share their information. Either way, I don't find dyno charts particularly instructive in evaluating an electronics package. First off, they only tell you how the motor performs at max power in a very idealized setting. Second, the variability between dynos is so great that its hard to compare apples to apples. Third, the talent of a tuner is to make a motor useable across a wide range of conditions - including startup, partial load, transient operation and variable atmospheric conditions. At Barber Motorsports Park this weekend, a 150ish HP Buell was racing very competitively against 190+ hp Suzukis. Clearly in this case, peak power did not define the overall performance of these racing vehicles.

    -Neel
    1st of all I am totally in awe of both your knowledge and your ability to express yourself. However a 150 hp Buell being competitive w/a 190 hp Suzuki does not necessarily support the point you were trying to make UNLESS the riders involved were of equal ability (& of course they rarely are). I spent a lot of time on roadcourses on a sportbike & got my butt routinely kicked by people on vastly inferior bikes but with overwhelmingly superior riding skills. I mean you are right that, "peak power did not define the overall performance of these racing vehicles", you just left out the fact that the rider is the biggest factor w/chassis set-up right behind it. To suggest that a Buell is even close to comparable to a GSXR 1000 (all other things equal) on a roadcourse is...well, laughable.
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    Click here to enlarge

  2. #52
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by azjimi Click here to enlarge
    1st of all I am totally in awe of both your knowledge and your ability to express yourself. However a 150 hp Buell being competitive w/a 190 hp Suzuki does not necessarily support the point you were trying to make UNLESS the riders involved were of equal ability (& of course they rarely are). I spent a lot of time on roadcourses on a sportbike & got my butt routinely kicked by people on vastly inferior bikes but with overwhelmingly superior riding skills. I mean you are right that, "peak power did not define the overall performance of these racing vehicles", you just left out the fact that the rider is the biggest factor w/chassis set-up right behind it. To suggest that a Buell is even close to comparable to a GSXR 1000 (all other things equal) on a roadcourse is...well, laughable.
    True, of course, driver skill is important, but I think his point had more to do with the power curve that was tuned for real world application rather than just peak power on the dyno.

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  3. #53
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    I'm surprised the FI S54 guys aren't eating this up

  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by black bnr32 Click here to enlarge
    I'm surprised the FI S54 guys aren't eating this up
    Most of them are all going the HPF route, this is more of a custom solution.

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  5. #55
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    1st of all I am totally in awe of both your knowledge and your ability to express yourself. However a 150 hp Buell being competitive w/a 190 hp Suzuki does not necessarily support the point you were trying to make UNLESS the riders involved were of equal ability (& of course they rarely are). I spent a lot of time on roadcourses on a sportbike & got my butt routinely kicked by people on vastly inferior bikes but with overwhelmingly superior riding skills. I mean you are right that, "peak power did not define the overall performance of these racing vehicles", you just left out the fact that the rider is the biggest factor w/chassis set-up right behind it. To suggest that a Buell is even close to comparable to a GSXR 1000 (all other things equal) on a roadcourse is...well, laughable.
    Perhaps I should give you a bit of background on why I made the claim that I did.

    I have been an engineer in the AMA Superbike paddock for over 5 years now. I have worked with Rockwall, Erion and the Honda Factory, now I am the electronics engineer for Michael Jordan Motorsports. In my career I have handled engine tuning for Jake Zemke, Aaron Yates, Geoff May, Aaron Gobert and a variety of other riders. My current engineering staff probably has more combined AMA wins and championships than anyone in the paddock. I have worked extensively with both Geoff May (Buell) and Jake Zemke (Suzuki) ; I can say with confidence my example was relevant and the comparison is not laughable at this level.

    So from my perspective, the Buell and the Suzuki are actually quite competitive on certain tracks; I am confident that results would have been quite similar if any of the top 5 riders were on that machine. Does that mean chassis and rider wasn't some of it? Of course not. But those factors alone, in this case, do not make up for the 25%+ power difference. Without going into a lot of detail in my example, I was saying that the power characteristics of the two motors was more significant than the peak power numbers, even when taking into account chassis & riders.

    Back on topic though, I find dyno charts unreliable in evaluating an engine management system. If there is a significant difference between two systems, the one making lower power has serious installation or setup issues and should not even be considered.

    -Neel

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    HPF solution

    Most of them are all going the HPF route, this is more of a custom solution.
    What's more, most people should be going to HPF route (AEM FIC piggyback.) For street cars running stock ECUs, this is the way to go.

    But for engine swaps and race cars, where stock dash compatibility is not an issue but the ability to have a lot of tuning flexibility is, this (the stanalone) route is far better.

    I've been really impressed with the response. We've had a lot of interest and I've met some really excellent people that we're excited to be building systems for!

    -Neel

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    But for engine swaps and race cars, where stock dash compatibility is not an issue but the ability to have a lot of tuning flexibility is, this (the stanalone) route is far better.
    Exactly, people need to understand this isn't a street car "kit" approach, this is for serious racing.

    That is not to say it could not be adopted for street use, but the HPF route is already tried and true.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    That is not to say it could not be adopted for street use, but the HPF route is already tried and true.
    Exactly. And let me point out that 4 of the S54 kits I've done replaced HPF kits that lacked necessary features such as anti-lag, knock control adjustment, motorsports-level traction control, closed-loop boost control and multi-fuel map capability. I know the HPF kit very well; also the defect rate of the AEM FIC that has been used by them is well documented. I am an AEM dealer and they have some excellent products. We built a conceptually similar kit to the HPF S54 kit for Suzuki Hayabusas; it was discontinued after we had several mechanical failures with the AEM circuit boards and connector interfaces. I know they have changed these and they've been improved.

    I'd liken the difference to a bookshelf audio system versus an individual component system. Not that the former can't sound good, but there's a point where you need flexibility and control that its can't provide. The kits we provide allow people to have completely standalone "blank slate" injection systems with the benefits of being free of the stock ECU constraints.

    Regards,

    Neel

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Hi found this forum yesterday and it has a ton of good info!

    I own a Z4 M - which comes with the s54. While there are heaps of s/c kits and turbo kits for the M3 there is nothing but 1 s/c kit for the Z4 because of the ECU we have. Its a different ecu to the m3 and is very similar to the m5 and new m3 ecu.

    Im not sure if the wiring harness is the same for the e46 m3 and Z4 m - if it is this ecu might be the first step towards a turbo Z4 M. Using the HPF manifold and custom pipe work it would be a great project.

    Also not sure if the AEM or similar set up would work with our DME. I cant find much info on any M5s or e9x M3s running a similar set up. Any insight would be great.

  10. #60
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by The__J__Factor Click here to enlarge
    Hi found this forum yesterday and it has a ton of good info!

    I own a Z4 M - which comes with the s54. While there are heaps of s/c kits and turbo kits for the M3 there is nothing but 1 s/c kit for the Z4 because of the ECU we have. Its a different ecu to the m3 and is very similar to the m5 and new m3 ecu.

    Im not sure if the wiring harness is the same for the e46 m3 and Z4 m - if it is this ecu might be the first step towards a turbo Z4 M. Using the HPF manifold and custom pipe work it would be a great project.

    Also not sure if the AEM or similar set up would work with our DME. I cant find much info on any M5s or e9x M3s running a similar set up. Any insight would be great.
    These are excellent questions and I have heard many guys with the Z4 M expressing concerns over the ECU. I think Neel would be more than qualified to handle to this as I am not familiar with the ECU in the Z4 M.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Also not sure if the AEM or similar set up would work with our DME. I cant find much info on any M5s or e9x M3s running a similar set up. Any insight would be great.
    The AEM FIC might work, but the setup can be pretty tricky. The unit basically fools the engine into thinking everything is okay while adding fuel and retarding timing on boost. The problem is these ECUs often have torque calculations and will shut the fly by wire throttle if it sees an overtorque error. So you have to first find someone to reflash the stock ECU to prevent that from happening. Also, the lambda spoofing the AEM FIC offers doesn't work with the Bosch sensors in the Z3 (or at least didn't about 2 years ago) so you'll likely get errors. Again, you need to find someone to disable this in the stock ECU. There are people out there but the problem is you can't be 100% sure it will work until you try; so its possible to be stuck with a big bill and no results.

  12. #62
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    Exactly, the dme is complicated and there doesnt seem to be a lot of work arounds. Going aftermarket standalone is also costly because of the custom wiring.
    If the wire harness are the same for all s54s then the Vipec could be really helpful or at least minimize install costs.
    Obviously not sure how much other electrical functionality would be lost by ditching the dme in a z4 compared to a m3. Doubt ill be the one to test it though lol

    Thanks
    - Jerome

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    Perhaps I should give you a bit of background on why I made the claim that I did.

    I have been an engineer in the AMA Superbike paddock for over 5 years now. I have worked with Rockwall, Erion and the Honda Factory, now I am the electronics engineer for Michael Jordan Motorsports. In my career I have handled engine tuning for Jake Zemke, Aaron Yates, Geoff May, Aaron Gobert and a variety of other riders. My current engineering staff probably has more combined AMA wins and championships than anyone in the paddock. I have worked extensively with both Geoff May (Buell) and Jake Zemke (Suzuki) ; I can say with confidence my example was relevant and the comparison is not laughable at this level.

    So from my perspective, the Buell and the Suzuki are actually quite competitive on certain tracks; I am confident that results would have been quite similar if any of the top 5 riders were on that machine. Does that mean chassis and rider wasn't some of it? Of course not. But those factors alone, in this case, do not make up for the 25%+ power difference. Without going into a lot of detail in my example, I was saying that the power characteristics of the two motors was more significant than the peak power numbers, even when taking into account chassis & riders.

    Back on topic though, I find dyno charts unreliable in evaluating an engine management system. If there is a significant difference between two systems, the one making lower power has serious installation or setup issues and should not even be considered.

    -Neel
    Well, all I know is Geoff May on his Buell finished 11th in the superbike standings. He is the highest Buell and his best finish is 6th @ Barber. Seven of the bikes above him in the standings are GSXR 1000's & all but one are Japanese 4 cyl. bikes. Would Josh Hayes & Tommy Hayden still be on top if they were riding Buells? You seem to think maybe, I kinda doubt it, and we will actually never know, but anything is possible & you certainly know more about it than I do. I know I would love to see the top 5 guys try each bike at each track to see how they stack up, but it's not likely to happen.
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    Click here to enlarge

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    So, I take, this unit may be a good choice for a 600 whp SC set up, yes?

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    So, I take, this unit may be a good choice for a 600 whp SC set up, yes?
    Yes it will.

    Regards,
    Neel

  16. #66
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    Yes it will.

    Regards,
    Neel
    But what about for a street car?

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    But what about for a street car?
    Our policy is we do not support OBDII compliance, and any kits we sell are for off-road use. We can (and have for other markets) built piggyback systems that work excellent for street cars. We do many pre obdII swaps that run great on the street. However, for an OBDII E46 intallation the check engine light, EML light, Rev limit lights are all on and cruise control won't work. There are people who can reflash the stock ECUs to deal with the the warning light issues.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    Our policy is we do not support OBDII compliance, and any kits we sell are for off-road use. We can (and have for other markets) built piggyback systems that work excellent for street cars. We do many pre obdII swaps that run great on the street. However, for an OBDII E46 intallation the check engine light, EML light, Rev limit lights are all on and cruise control won't work. There are people who can reflash the stock ECUs to deal with the the warning light issues.
    So for example, can an S54 swap be done as OBDI?

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    So for example, can an S54 swap be done as OBDI?
    Well, the only way to make something OBDI from a legal point of view is to certify them. But if by OBDI you mean the swap will integrate with the stock vehicle wiring, control the check engine light and allow the car to pass a tailpipe sniffer, yes.

    -Neel

  20. #70
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    But if by OBDI you mean the swap will integrate with the stock vehicle wiring, control the check engine light and allow the car to pass a tailpipe sniffer, yes.
    This is what I was looking for Click here to enlarge Thank you.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    Our policy is we do not support OBDII compliance, and any kits we sell are for off-road use. We can (and have for other markets) built piggyback systems that work excellent for street cars. We do many pre obdII swaps that run great on the street. However, for an OBDII E46 intallation the check engine light, EML light, Rev limit lights are all on and cruise control won't work. There are people who can reflash the stock ECUs to deal with the the warning light issues.
    Neel, is this all? That sounds completely reasonable for street cars that won't require emissions testing.

  22. #72
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by black bnr32 Click here to enlarge
    Neel, is this all? That sounds completely reasonable for street cars that won't require emissions testing.
    Yes, but when he says they won't work does that mean they will be on looking like a Christmas tree or simply not functioning?

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  23. #73
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    I think the answer depends a fair bit on the car.
    A white 335i will be far from fully functional at a self diagnostic level, but a black bnr32 will have 100% of stock look and function.
    Dan

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    haha...you bet!

    i'm referring to the e46 m3 only

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by The__J__Factor Click here to enlarge
    I own a Z4 M - which comes with the s54. While there are heaps of s/c kits and turbo kits for the M3 there is nothing but 1 s/c kit for the Z4 because of the ECU we have. Its a different ecu to the m3 and is very similar to the m5 and new m3 ecu.
    I'm sure you are already aware of this but still worth a look for a Z4 M owner: http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...5477#post65477

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