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  1. #76
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The 328 doesn't have turbo lag but it also doesn't have independent throttle bodies. The E46 M3 is razor sharp, no new M motor will match it.
    My point is, until you drive the new m, you can't say it won't be responsive, why just bc it's turbo? Ok.... Let's see. U and many others are basing thier opinions of bmw's m turbo engines based on thier non m counterparts.
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  2. #77
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    My point is, until you drive the new m, you can't say it won't be responsive, why just bc it's turbo? Ok.... Let's see. U and many others are basing thier opinions of bmw's m turbo engines based on thier non m counterparts.
    BMW themselves already stated the turbo motors can't match the previous NA M motors. What exactly can be done to the new M3 that will make it leaps and bounds more responsive than the turbo motors BMW has already shown? What is there I need to drive to see? I'm speaking of the M counterparts.

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  3. #78
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    Where did BMW specifically say the throttle response on the new turbo motor won't match the current NA motors?
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  4. #79
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    Where did BMW specifically say the throttle response on the new turbo motor won't match the current NA motors?
    http://www.bimmerboost.com/content.p...-their-own-car

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  5. #80
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    Sounds to me like they are working towards the same response....saying "we're getting damn close" on a car that isn't released yet.....maybe they will be there? The fact they are working on it shows to me they see its importance and will not let the new engines lose that. Sorry, I see what your saying, but this doesn't worry me one bit. People act as if the new turbo m motors will be the end of m bmw's, I just don't believe it.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    Sounds to me like they are working towards the same response....saying "we're getting damn close" on a car that isn't released yet.....maybe they will be there? The fact they are working on it shows to me they see its importance and will not let the new engines lose that. Sorry, I see what your saying, but this doesn't worry me one bit. People act as if the new turbo m motors will be the end of m bmw's, I just don't believe it.
    It's them admitting the motors don't have the same response as a turbo motor simply won't compared to an independent throttle body NA motor. It's just the nature of the motors a turbo motor will have lag. They can bump compression to try to minimize it but it will always be there. Just like how the 911 turbo will never match the GT3 no matter if they use VTG turbos or not.

    I don't think it will be the end of BMW's or a bad car. It just won't be the same.

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  7. #82
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    My point is, until you drive the new m, you can't say it won't be responsive, why just bc it's turbo? Ok.... Let's see. U and many others are basing thier opinions of bmw's m turbo engines based on thier non m counterparts.
    I have driven an X5M - that has a "real M motor" - it's not even close to as responsive as my M3. Tons of torque down low, yes - but it's again, not even close - not on the same page/book/etc... I guess it's an opinion, but I am nearly certain it will be true for the next gen M3

  8. #83
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    The x5m isn't a good example....that car is even less of a m car than the 1m.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    The x5m isn't a good example....that car is even less of a m car than the 1m.
    I know - point is, it has an "S" motor - created by M GMbH. I can see the M3 being a "miniature" M5 - as it has been in the past. They aren't going to get rid of the lag, there will always be some. NA is as good as it gets, that's the thing. By no means do I think the X5M is a proper M car (same with the 1M) - that's the other half of the problem with this nonsense.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    I know - point is, it has an "S" motor - created by M GMbH
    Exactly and it offers nowhere near the response. None of these new motors will, it's not possible.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Idiotic comment. Same junk rehashed but I'm not sure if you really believe this or not. Yeah, what a weak motor that exceeds anything else done on the E9X platfom and is making retarded power.
    that comment doesnt even make sense, put the drink down before you get into more trouble

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    that comment doesnt even make sense, put the drink down before you get into more trouble
    You need to take time off from the forum. Please take a break before I make you.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    that comment doesnt even make sense, put the drink down before you get into more trouble
    You're hopeless man. How doesn't it make sense? the S65 is the most powerful engine available for the E9x platform, both modded and stock.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It's them admitting the motors don't have the same response as a turbo motor simply won't compared to an independent throttle body NA motor. It's just the nature of the motors a turbo motor will have lag. They can bump compression to try to minimize it but it will always be there. Just like how the 911 turbo will never match the GT3 no matter if they use VTG turbos or not.

    I don't think it will be the end of BMW's or a bad car. It just won't be the same.
    I know you were talking N/A here, but let us not forget the ultimate lag of an centri SC. Come on sticky, you would rather have a turbo on that monster of yours. The response is a fact of the motor, not turbo/non turbo. Put a turbo on an E46 and immediate response will be the same, but more power will be had of course. Same with the E92 m3. Your right that the newer motors are a different breed/feel. I think that if BMW built a turbo power plant with N/A response in mind we would see that instant jab followed close by a face rippling surge.

    Don't forget when you are comparing N54 to S65, there are 2 less cylinders and over a liter less displacement. N54 is detuned from the factory compared to S65, and both are on par with each other in aftermarket power abilities. I don't ever see the S65 even hanging with the new TTv8's once the aftermarket really gets their hands on them.

    But, I think BMW should take a page from Porsche and the GT3. There is always a group that doesn't want the turbo surge and larger power capability, but the instant bang on throttle of a highly tuned N/A motor. Id like to see an N/a version M3 as well.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DFM Click here to enlarge
    You're hopeless man. How doesn't it make sense? the S65 is the most powerful engine available for the E9x platform, both modded and stock.
    Wait, so, 2 less cylinders and over a liter less displacement and the N54 still is right up there with the S65 when modded with larger turbos. The n54 is detuned comparatively speaking versus s65 from factory. a lower end tune puts it right in the neighborhood. And what about stock engine/turbo/drivertrane when modded the s65 hangs? Didn't know that N/A s65's put down what a full bolt on w/ good tune n54 can.

    Also, just want to point out that while the modded s65 does hold a higher power level now, that is with a built internal engine and if I recall the 700+rwhp n54's are stock. Apples and oranges man. Lets build the N54, not just the bottom end-add a set of cams that can breath and increase the size of those pea-shooter valves it has and really run some boost.
    | 1997 Estoril M3 - TURBO - |
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    | GT3582R | 8.5:1 forged internals | ARP stuffs | SS oring block & Elring HG | Fully balanced & blueprinted 3.3L S52 |
    | Nick G custom tune | 46mm Precision gate | 62# injectors | Dual 255's |

    Goal to be the first GT35r E36 to: 30 psi, 140+ mph, < 6 second 60-130

  16. #91
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rt turbo Click here to enlarge
    I know you were talking N/A here, but let us not forget the ultimate lag of an centri SC. Come on sticky, you would rather have a turbo on that monster of yours.
    If you read the S65 Gintani Turbo thread I say exactly this, do not disagree. I would ultimately rather have a positive displacement big ole twin screw but that won't happen.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rt turbo Click here to enlarge
    The response is a fact of the motor, not turbo/non turbo. Put a turbo on an E46 and immediate response will be the same, but more power will be had of course.
    This is due to the S54 being a razor sharp NA motor with very high VE. These BMW turbo motors are not the same thing. It's not like they are taking an S54 and turboing it or taking an S65 V8 and turboing it. Direct injected, lower compression, lazier motors with torque curves that drop off. I would complain a lot less if they combined turbos with their previous M philosophy but alas they do not.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rt turbo Click here to enlarge
    Don't forget when you are comparing N54 to S65, there are 2 less cylinders and over a liter less displacement. N54 is detuned from the factory compared to S65, and both are on par with each other in aftermarket power abilities.
    Oh trust me I never forget to put this out and both ARE NOT on par currently.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rt turbo Click here to enlarge
    I don't ever see the S65 even hanging with the new TTv8's once the aftermarket really gets their hands on them.
    Why not? It's faster than they are on even with an SC on stock internals. By the time the TT V8's can hang with my car...

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rt turbo Click here to enlarge
    But, I think BMW should take a page from Porsche and the GT3.
    I agree Porsche does it the right way.

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  17. #92
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rt turbo Click here to enlarge
    Wait, so, 2 less cylinders and over a liter less displacement and the N54 still is right up there with the S65 when modded with larger turbos.
    It isn't, what are you talking about? And additionally the S65 psi per psi will always outperform it. Always.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rt turbo Click here to enlarge
    Didn't know that N/A s65's put down what a full bolt on w/ good tune n54 can.
    NA S65's have hit 441 whp so they sure can and they could hit more too. It's how you built it.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rt turbo Click here to enlarge
    Also, just want to point out that while the modded s65 does hold a higher power level now, that is with a built internal engine and if I recall the 700+rwhp n54's are stock. Apples and oranges man. Lets build the N54, not just the bottom end-add a set of cams that can breath and increase the size of those pea-shooter valves it has and really run some boost.
    No what you do to it there is no way for it to become a 4.0 liter V8 with 8500 rpm. The S65 does have a higher power level and it's much higher than people even realize. Let me get my clutches fixed and I'll show you.

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