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    JB4 as boost controller only?

    Terry, would it be possible to use the JB4 with no bias on any inputs/outputs, solely as a boost controller? And would it be further possible to use the Req. Boost values (or wgdc) from the DME to set the boost control point?

    In this way, would it be possible to run external wastegates either on a single or twin turbo N54, because the DME is getting the boost it asks for; just not in the way it thinks? And the DME could handle fueling/timing completely through the flash via Cobb/whatever. Understanding in this scenario that you'd be sacrificing any of the map-switching and auto-tuning benefits of the JB4, and you'd have to re-flash to change boost settings. Essentially, the JB4 would be doing nothing but replacing the idiotic stock boost control system on external wastegate systems.

    Is this a mode that could be programmed and sold by you on the JB4?

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    What you want won't work. But the JB4 ISO was designed to control an external wastegate. I've just yet to finalize the software. Some day someone will drop off a single turbo car (or we're add one to our stable), and we'll write that part of the code. Once written you can use the JB4 for boost, fuel, and cps (timing), for boost only along with your flash of choice, or boost & fuel along with the BMS flash as we do now for RB cars.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 05-20-2013 at 06:37 PM.
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    If the JB4 were used for boost only, would it bias the values the DME sees at all, or would the DME see everything as-is and the JB4 just controls the wastegate(s)?

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    If you go in and zero out the o2 bias & fp bias, zero out cps or don't install the wires, and remove the solenoid connections so it can't control boost, then the JB4 will report actual boost to the DME up until the factory boost target at which point the JB4 will clamp the boost signal at that level, unless actual boost goes over the JB4 target, in which case the JB4 will start to report higher than actual target back to the DME for throttle management. A few guys run the JB4 with an external controller but they just run a fixed boost level across the board and enter that value both in the JB4 and their external controller so boost hovers around the JB4 target. Sloppy but workable short term.

    Generally speaking, for it to work right the JB4 needs to be controlling boost. Some day soon we'll offer that functionality. Until then I don't think there are any good options. The procede in theory is setup for external wategate control for FFTEC's kit but I don't know if that would work with another kit or whether or not they would share the firmware. You'd have to check with them.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 05-20-2013 at 06:57 PM.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    If you go in and zero out the o2 bias & fp bias, zero out cps or don't install the wires, and remove the solenoid connections so it can't control boost, then the JB4 will report actual boost to the DME up until the factory boost target at which point the JB4 will clamp the boost signal at that level, unless actual boost goes over the JB4 target, in which case the JB4 will start to report higher than actual target back to the DME for throttle management. A few guys run the JB4 with an external controller but they just run a fixed boost level across the board and enter that value both in the JB4 and their external controller so boost hovers around the JB4 target. Sloppy but workable short term.

    Generally speaking, for it to work right the JB4 needs to be controlling boost. Some day soon we'll offer that functionality. Until then I don't think there are any good options. The procede in theory is setup for external wategate control for FFTEC's kit but I don't know if that would work with another kit or whether or not they would share the firmware. You'd have to check with them.
    If the DME set boost is slightly higher than the JB4 target (set load target at say, 200 across the board in the DME) then set the JB4 @ 18psi, then the DME would see the real value the entire time, and the JB4 would accurately control the boost @ 18psi without biasing or clamping any other values, right? And if it overboosted past 20psi, the DME would close throttle for safety just like its supposed to?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DallasBoosted Click here to enlarge
    If the DME set boost is slightly higher than the JB4 target (set load target at say, 200 across the board in the DME) then set the JB4 @ 18psi, then the DME would see the real value the entire time, and the JB4 would accurately control the boost @ 18psi without biasing or clamping any other values, right? And if it overboosted past 20psi, the DME would close throttle for safety just like its supposed to?
    Load 200 all across would be some sort of wacky boost curve between 16-20psi depending on RPM & air intake temperature. What the JB4 would do would depend entirely on what actual boost was doing vs. the DME target via whatever was controlling it.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Load 200 all across would be some sort of wacky boost curve between 16-20psi depending on RPM & air intake temperature. What the JB4 would do would depend entirely on what actual boost was doing vs. the DME target via whatever was controlling it.
    Terry, thanks for answering my questions. You can see where I'm trying to get, JB4 controlling boost only and modifying the values going to the DME as little as humanly possible. How do I get to there from here? Using a product like the JB4 to overcome the most glaring flash-tune limitation so far (external wastegate control) seems like a great way to solve that problem. I just don't want to introduce more problems at the same time. See where I'm going? And it works out great for you at the same time, you sell JB4's. Click here to enlarge Even if all their features aren't enabled...

    Thanks

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    You need to wait for us to write single turbo boost control algorithms for the JB4 for it to work properly.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    You need to wait for us to write single turbo boost control algorithms for the JB4 for it to work properly.
    Right, I assumed this was the case. But you think its possible, then, to have the JB4 doing nothing but boost? I.e. fuel and timing are controlled completely by the DME and the JB4 isn't biasing any inputs besides the MAP sensor as we discussed (clamping MAP value at the DME's expected boost level)?

    Related question: what happens when the JB4 clamps the MAP signal at some value lower than the actual value? Doesn't the DME put in less fuel than would be required? So the JB4 would bias the o2 sensors in that case to gain some extra enrichment to meet target AFR's etc? This is what I want to avoid; I want the DME seeing the unmolested signal in all cases. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

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    Basically what you want won't work. Or at least I can't offer you any help with it. Once the DME is not seeing actual boost levels everything on the tuning end must be accommodated via the piggyback for proper engine management. The closer to actual boost the DME sees the less has to be done. But scalar values, biasing, etc, all must be manipulated to make it work.
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    I never quite understood exactly what the OP was going for, but do I understand correctly that I could piggyback a JB4 on top of my Cobb and have the JB4 handle boost and 2-step/NLTS and leave the fuel and timing alone?

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    The flash and piggyback tuning need to both be modified to work together.
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    I can speak on the Procede... if you set piggy boost below DME then it will follow DME + about 1psi, so basically mirroring DME setpoint. I believe both JB and Procede return the DME setpoint back to the DME and manipulate when needed (like significant overshoot).

    I'm curious what's needed for external WG. Currently both piggies (I believe) control the solenoids directly at same frequency as DME. What needs to be changed for external WG? My thought is that a PWM signal would be sent to a pressure bleed valve... very similar to current setup, but regulating pressure instead of vac. Does the piggy hardware need to be changed or the software control? Procede controls with 3D WG table and static PID, so you basically just adjust these values for the software I thought.

    An EBC works very similarly I would think... throttle input, boost setpoint referencing DC table and PID based on actual. Is the difference the frequency?

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    You need to redesign the PID software to work for a traditional wastegate.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    You need to redesign the PID software to work for a traditional wastegate.
    Interesting and definitely PID is a set of formulas that's tough to grasp for me. But what I understand is that error and manipulated value would still be boost and WGDC. So I thought the only changes would be trial and error finding P, I, D. Can you just reference an EBC control, or is this kept confidential by manufacturers.

    so no change to the the hardware?

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    Terry to explain further, having had a procede on my car the whole piggyback thing is just leaving a bad taste in my mouth. I'm willing to accept that the DME can't control boost-actuated EWG's, so we need an external boost controller. The JB4 seems like it would be ideal since it can read what the DME is trying to do with the WG's and intelligently control boost based on what the DME wants.

    This would be a "minimally invasive" external boost controller, leaving nearly all engine management in the hands of the DME. We can argue about whether this is a worthwhile goal or not, but I'm wondering in this thread if its even possible, having the DME see all sensors and inputs with no biasing or clamping, and successfully using the JB4 as an EBC only.

    Thanks for your help!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Interesting and definitely PID is a set of formulas that's tough to grasp for me. But what I understand is that error and manipulated value would still be boost and WGDC. So I thought the only changes would be trial and error finding P, I, D. Can you just reference an EBC control, or is this kept confidential by manufacturers.

    so no change to the the hardware?
    First the change isn't overly difficult. Especially for Shiv as the Haltech already comes with boost control for a traditional wastegate. On the JB4 end I'd have to write that code from scratch. But I don't see it as taking more than a couple days. I just want the car here to ensure it's all perfect.

    With the factory setup PWM is increased to apply vacuum to the wastegates. With a single setup PWM is increased to bleed boost away from the wastegate. The PID algorithms used to target the correct PWM are very different. One of the reasons I want to play with a car locally is to see if I can use the factory solenoid in this capacity which would be very convenient. If we can't then I need to source a traditional solenoid, make a harness for it, adjust PWM frequency to match it, etc.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DallasBoosted Click here to enlarge
    Terry to explain further, having had a procede on my car the whole piggyback thing is just leaving a bad taste in my mouth. I'm willing to accept that the DME can't control boost-actuated EWG's, so we need an external boost controller. The JB4 seems like it would be ideal since it can read what the DME is trying to do with the WG's and intelligently control boost based on what the DME wants.

    This would be a "minimally invasive" external boost controller, leaving nearly all engine management in the hands of the DME. We can argue about whether this is a worthwhile goal or not, but I'm wondering in this thread if its even possible, having the DME see all sensors and inputs with no biasing or clamping, and successfully using the JB4 as an EBC only.

    Thanks for your help!
    Once single boost control is written for the JB4, running it on map 4 would do that. It would target whatever the factory boost target was programmed on the flash side, and would disable all biasing.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Once single boost control is written for the JB4, running it on map 4 would do that. It would target whatever the factory boost target was programmed on the flash side, and would disable all biasing.
    Thank you sir. Once you do this, It'd be sweet if someone in your area would buy a Doc Race HPF single manifold (or FFTEC manifold for that matter) put together a single turbo and let the JB4/Cobb run it. I think Vargas has proven the DME can handle big turbos and big power in general with just a flash, and I think the only difference between the single and twins as far as the DME is concerned is the boost control and the o2 sensors. Assuming (Hah!) that the o2 sensors in the HPF/FFTEC position work properly, the Cobb/JB4 setup should be able to run a single turbo as well as the Cobb (with PTF of course) has run the Vargas turbos. Which seems to be pretty well so far.

    Anything I'm missing here?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DallasBoosted Click here to enlarge
    Anything I'm missing here?
    Yes. The DME can only handle ~21.5psi. To run more than that they are fudging the analog input readings back to the DME just like we do with a piggyback. But I have no interest in fighting a piggyback crusade with you or anyone else. We use them because they allow us to do things that can't be done with a flash alone, provide safer and stronger tuning, with more features. Like anything though it must be properly tuned regardless of the approach used.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Yes. The DME can only handle ~21.5psi. To run more than that they are fudging the analog input readings back to the DME just like we do with a piggyback. But I have no interest in fighting a piggyback crusade with you or anyone else. We use them because they allow us to do things that can't be done with a flash alone, provide safer and stronger tuning, with more features. Like anything though it must be properly tuned regardless of the approach used.
    Right, thats a known limitation. For my purposes (admittedly, not the same purposes as everyone here, which is why I'm explaining) 18-20psi is plenty. Its also my understanding that Cobb is developing some code to remove that boost limit, but even if they don't, that amount of boost is fine for me. I'm more interested in the upgraded turbos not to run ultimate boost or make the most power but for reliability, less heat, and maintaining torque in the high end. If I could run 18psi flat across the rpm band with full boost at 3500-4000, that'd work great for my purposes. Ideally I'd want it to be near the middle of the road for the turbo(s), not maxed out making 18psi at redline like RB's or stage 2's due to the tiny housings.

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    Expensive project to run 18-20psi reliably. Just sayin.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Expensive project to run 18-20psi reliably. Just sayin.
    Not disagreeing, but not all of us are building drag cars.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DallasBoosted Click here to enlarge
    but not all of us are building drag cars.
    Lies.

    Jk, you make a good point.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    335i's aren't the best drag car so that's a good thing. 18-20 psi would be a fun ride with an efficient setup on pump gas, no quarrel there. Anyway it's trivial because if you do want more it's not like you're forever locked into having no options. I've always thought it better to have goals in lap time, et, hp, etc than psi though.

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