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    Is it safe to run MS109 with my ESS VT2 ?

    I've been doing some reading and it seems that the stoich for ms109 is 13.4. If our superchargers were tuned for pump gas 14.64...would ms109 make us run lean without a different tune? Or does the ecu on the S54 compensate ? I just purchased 10 gallons and now I'm not sure I should use this stuff. Any of you guys with experience using MS109 without a special race gas tune, I would love your input. Thanks

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    14.64/13.4 = 1.09
    So you will be running about 9% leaner.

    I'll admit that I don't know how the BMW DME tuning works. That is black magic stuff that nobody likes to talk about.....

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    I know... especially the Z4M ECU, freak of natureClick here to enlarge I can eventually use vp100 which has the same stoich as 93 with 10% eth. The problem is I bought 10 gallons of ms109 and wanted it mainly for knock control with my new pulley I installed today. THe pulley was only suppost to add 1psi...but I ended up with 2 more for a grand total of 9 psi. I decided to run it with 93 octane and it's a monster. I hear ms109 will add some serious power so I would like to know if anyone is using it. I spoke with a few people, and they said just mix it at 20% ms109 to 80 % 93octane. I should have a dyno tomorrow, and I will post the results. Thanks for the reply.

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    Yes you can absolutely run it especially if you installed a smaller pulley with no ECU changes. I would simply pour it in the tank on my Supercharged E46 M3 (S54) and made an additional 30+WHP, the boosted S54's love it, I don't recall seeing any real difference in my AFR's as well.
    08 E92 M3 - DCT
    Bolt Ons - Best ET 11.88 Best Trap Speed 119.8 MPH
    60-130 MPH (3 shifts) 10.71s
    Gintani Stage 2+ Supercharger 60-130MPH (3 shifts) 7.06s
    11.45 @ 131.6 MPH
    579WHP @9.3psi

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    If you added 2psi with no changes to the tune I think it's a very good idea that you run higher octane fuel like MS109. Your car is not running at 14.64 AFR's right now, you are probably around the 11.8 area from the ESS dyno's I have seen. I don't think running ms109 will change your AFR's much if any at all.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DLSJ5 Click here to enlarge
    Yes you can absolutely run it especially if you installed a smaller pulley with no ECU changes. I would simply pour it in the tank on my Supercharged E46 M3 (S54) and made an additional 30+WHP, the boosted S54's love it, I don't recall seeing any real difference in my AFR's as well.
    Exactly.

    You won't have any issues running MS109. Plus, if that tune is as good as it is supposed to be you should be able to run a variety of fuels with the ecu protecting you by pulling timing when necessary.

    The car will like the higher octane fuel especially with boost.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DLSJ5 Click here to enlarge
    Yes you can absolutely run it especially if you installed a smaller pulley with no ECU changes. I would simply pour it in the tank on my Supercharged E46 M3 (S54) and made an additional 30+WHP, the boosted S54's love it, I don't recall seeing any real difference in my AFR's as well.
    You did it or you have seen it? I would love to see that, I know it was posted my Mspired on the Fanatic's forum as well. BMW DME tuning is such a mystery that I would love to learn more about. Someone show me a link, dyno video ect. I want too see it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Adgar Click here to enlarge
    You did it or you have seen it?
    He stated in his post "I would simply pour it in the tank on my supercharged E46 M3 and made and additional 30+ whp." Click here to enlarge

    I'm sure he has can post up his old dynos if he still has them.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
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    Thanks guys! I was concerned because the ms109 has a lower stoich at 13.4 as opposed to pump at 14.7 which in theory would yield a leaner mixture unless the tune has provisions. Sticky..your correct, I was informed that the tuning will allow for many variations of fuel stoich. It seems like this is the only site one can get accurate info without the B.S. I did in fact add 5 gallons of ms109 to 2 or 3 gallons of 93 and the car was like a tazmanian devilClick here to enlarge AFR's also showed the ECU adding fuel as opposed to 93 octane. I just got my car back from ESS a few days ago and I have to say, I don't recognize the car in a good way! My car was in Phoenix for 4 months for prototype vt2-500...it was worth the wait. I'm getting a dynojet session on monday for some numbers. I will post the results....promiseClick here to enlarge Cheers guys, and thank you

    Joe

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fr8tdog Click here to enlarge
    It seems like this is the only site one can get accurate info without the B.S.
    It's true and what separates use from the rest Click here to enlarge

    Tears of joy, tears of joy.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    He stated in his post "I would simply pour it in the tank on my supercharged E46 M3 and made and additional 30+ whp." Click here to enlarge

    I'm sure he has can post up his old dynos if he still has them.
    Mental block, still need proof......

    Many people have said poring up to 98 octane fuel in the tank of a car with a stock S54 motor will create more power. I researched this a while back on M3forum and discovered a GT1 tool was need to verify that timing would advance. I never found solid proof. Now, the idea that the factory DME has the ability to self tune or make major adjustments in timing and and air fuel ration functions with increased PSI and more octane is hard for me to believe. Sorry... HPF warned their users to not use fuels that are not for the HPF tune.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Adgar Click here to enlarge
    Many people have said poring up to 98 octane fuel in the tank of a car with a stock S54 motor will create more power.
    It will, the ecu will advance timing. It does need some time to adjust though.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Adgar Click here to enlarge
    I never found solid proof.
    You can search through the documents on the factory DME and see the parameters on which it adjusts. One of them would be fuel quality so it is simply logical. The proof is in the design itself. I honestly don't think anyone has a dyno on 91 octane and then empties their tank and does a dyno on race gas. I can tell you this much though, if you do look for dynos on race gas they tend to be higher than on pump by a slight margin. The same parameters that adjust the timing in SC setups also work when NA. It isn't hard to believe, it is how it works.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Adgar Click here to enlarge
    orry... HPF warned their users to not use fuels that are not for the HPF tune.
    Well of course. They are boosting 11.5:1 compression, little to no margin for error. In the factory cars, they will even work on 87 octane as the ecu will protect the motor. In the boosted cars, you don't have this luxury. Do not use lower octane fuel when boosting high compression as there is no amount of timing retard that will save you if you are knocking which you will.

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    I'll post up some dyno's later.

    Speaking of race gas, I need to go pick some up right now for tomorrow's Mexico runs Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MSpiredM3 Click here to enlarge
    I'll post up some dyno's later.

    Speaking of race gas, I need to go pick some up right now for tomorrow's Mexico runs Click here to enlarge

    shold be a fun weekend for all then.. did you get everything situated?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Adgar Click here to enlarge
    You did it or you have seen it? I would love to see that, I know it was posted my Mspired on the Fanatic's forum as well. BMW DME tuning is such a mystery that I would love to learn more about. Someone show me a link, dyno video ect. I want too see it.
    HPF uses a completely different way of tuning, if you simply pour higher octane fuel in, it will not add additional timing than what they tuned it for on the AEM unit. However, for safety reasons it will pull timing or boost if it detects knock. The factory S54 with a Supercharger will adapt to higher octane fuel. I did it plenty of times, as have others, the car made more on the dyno, and in Mexico was a good deal faster, 60-130 MPH was at least .5 seconds faster as well.

    On a stock car you will not see the power gains that you would on a FI car, because when you add the blower you have to pull back timing quite a bit in comparison to a NA setup to run on pump 91 -93 octane fuel, therefore there is a lot of timing the ECU can add back in with race fuel.
    08 E92 M3 - DCT
    Bolt Ons - Best ET 11.88 Best Trap Speed 119.8 MPH
    60-130 MPH (3 shifts) 10.71s
    Gintani Stage 2+ Supercharger 60-130MPH (3 shifts) 7.06s
    11.45 @ 131.6 MPH
    579WHP @9.3psi

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    And coming straight from the horses mouth...that being ESS, my tuner and kit developer, said race gas will definitely add power. There are provisions built into the software as well as the factory ECU's ability to advance timing. My car was tuned on 91 (more like 90 octane) in 105f temps at 1500 ft elevation. On the dyno you can see the timing being pulled. Roman even said " when you get back home where you can get 93 octane, you can install this included pulley for and additional 1 to 1.5 psi. Well, I ended up with more like 2-2.5 and wow! does it feel good. I wanted the race fuel just in case the new pulley added more boost...which it did. I ran my car with the 93 octane only and new pulley with no issue and then added the ms109 at 5 gallons ms109 to 2.5 gallons 93 and let me tell you...there is absolutely NO question I gained more power. My dyno from ESS in AZ with 91 octane, 1500ft elevation, 105f temps put down 410rwhp with timing being pulled up top. I will have a dyno done on Monday morning with the new pulley and a mix of ms109 and 93. Should be interesting.........I have stock headers as well.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Adgar Click here to enlarge
    Mental block, still need proof......

    Many people have said poring up to 98 octane fuel in the tank of a car with a stock S54 motor will create more power. I researched this a while back on M3forum and discovered a GT1 tool was need to verify that timing would advance. I never found solid proof. Now, the idea that the factory DME has the ability to self tune or make major adjustments in timing and and air fuel ration functions with increased PSI and more octane is hard for me to believe. Sorry... HPF warned their users to not use fuels that are not for the HPF tune.
    Adrian, I have run MS 109 in my car several times and notice a difference. One of th last times we met up, I was running straight MS109 and the car was running really strong. The stock DME does advance timing with added octane.

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    The guys are right, you can use MS109 and ESS tune should be good enough to do the right thing! Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge



    EURO 04 M3 Current Mods:GC DAs, Eibach Sways, PF RTAB's, RE RCAs, INTRAVEE II, Black Roundels, ///MFEST Badges, Depo's, Screen protector for NAV display, VCSL Bumper + Race Lip & CF Trunk & CF Rear Diffusor, DIETZ TV in Motion, SS= V1 Headers + catless pipes + X-Pipe + SS Sport Exhaust, Z8 Starter Button, Lamin-X, OEM CSL interior, OEM CSL Steering, OEM CSL Intake, OEM CSL Roof, MSS54HP + OEM CSL Tune, BBS CH's, LIGHTWERKZ, 355mm ST40 BBK, BW Oil Cooler....

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    fr8tdog

    This is an interesting thread. If I remember you are running a Z4M, correct?

    I have been lead to believe that the ECU on the Z4M is way different than what is on a E46 and is very close to the E90 series ECU.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Shipkiller Click here to enlarge
    fr8tdog

    This is an interesting thread. If I remember you are running a Z4M, correct?

    I have been lead to believe that the ECU on the Z4M is way different than what is on a E46 and is very close to the E90 series ECU.
    If it is an S54 I don't see why the engine management would be radically different.

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    I don't think that applies to the Z4Ms. We have a newer, faster ECU than the E46 M3, which is why so few tuning mods apply to our cars; the tuners didn't bother cracking the ECU for such a small market. Ours are also capable of 200m calculations/sec, just like the S65.

    I have to remember where I received this info. When I do, I will post the raw data.

    But the reason I posted was to remind ft8tdog that if we Z4M drivers have a different, faster ECU, it is highly possible that the stock ECU programming will adapt to higher octane fuel better than the ECU in the E46. This statement is NOT a slam on the E46. I love that car... I almost bought one.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Shipkiller Click here to enlarge
    I don't think that applies to the Z4Ms. We have a newer, faster ECU than the E46 M3, which is why so few tuning mods apply to our cars; the tuners didn't bother cracking the ECU for such a small market. Ours are also capable of 200m calculations/sec, just like the S65.

    I have to remember where I received this info. When I do, I will post the raw data.

    But the reason I posted was to remind ft8tdog that if we Z4M drivers have a different, faster ECU, it is highly possible that the stock ECU programming will adapt to higher octane fuel better than the ECU in the E46. This statement is NOT a slam on the E46. I love that car... I almost bought one.
    I believe that only applies to the earlier model M3's and that 2003.5 and up M3's have the newer DME

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    Sounds like a research project.
    Click here to enlarge

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    I've been told by BMW tech's and ESS that the Z4M ECU is quite different from the E46. In fact the ECU on the Z4M is a very difficult animal for custom tuning. Beside the very! weak demand for an HPF Z4M, I believe the other reason is the nightmare of a tune it would be. I would love to put an HPF stage 4 on this little roadsterClick here to enlarge HPF Chris....need a test rat Z4M for stage 4??? haha. cheers guys.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fr8tdog Click here to enlarge
    I've been told by BMW tech's and ESS that the Z4M ECU is quite different from the E46. In fact the ECU on the Z4M is a very difficult animal for custom tuning. Beside the very! weak demand for an HPF Z4M, I believe the other reason is the nightmare of a tune it would be. I would love to put an HPF stage 4 on this little roadsterClick here to enlarge HPF Chris....need a test rat Z4M for stage 4??? haha. cheers guys.
    I think this is interesting enough to pursue in further detail. Any details on the ECU itself? Is it a different ECU entirely?

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