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  1. #326
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    You're kidding, As long as the logic it ATR is available, OTS Maps are the least important thing, especially because this is still a completely stock motor with a turbo system operating identical to OEM.

    Let's be real: if you can afford a ~$5k+ turbo system, you can afford the $500 it costs to PROtune
    Not everyone wants someone else's locked maps.

    It isn't a question of money.
    Change is constant

  2. #327
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
    And why is your car FI? oh right... Sorry but anyone that touts that line and has an SC M3 is automatically dq'd.
    Not really I'm capable of differentiating between power builds and driving respone/pleasure. Like a 911 Turbo versus a GT3 but apparently that's hard for you comprehend.

  3. #328
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    The small v8 in the m3 is good for neither response or power when you compare it to a similar built lsx. But we all have our reasons. It beats the n54 however in both, why do we care?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    The small v8 in the m3 is good for neither response or power when you compare it to a similar built lsx. But we all have our reasons. It beats the n54 however in both, why do we care?
    I have to disagree on the response part - power, yes for sure. I haven't seen many motors even close to an S54 or S65 as far as throttle response goes - and I have seen many. Tuned or not.

  5. #330
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    By response I meant low end torque, power responsiveness, not how quickly it revs. From a throttle response point of view the M's are great. Porsche comes close. Sport bikes destroy them all. Still not sure how this is pertinent to anything really, I digress.

  6. #331
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    The small v8 in the m3 is good for neither response or power when you compare it to a similar built lsx. But we all have our reasons. It beats the n54 however in both, why do we care?
    Not good for response or power? Uh better response than a high revving V8 with independent throttle bodies and mafless design with over 100 hp per liter... right. Click here to enlarge

  7. #332
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    I have to disagree on the response part - power, yes for sure. I haven't seen many motors even close to an S54 or S65 as far as throttle response goes - and I have seen many. Tuned or not.
    He has no clue what he's saying.

  8. #333
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    He has no clue what he's saying.
    This is kinda old news now as this was fancy in 2007, but I'll just leave this here. http://forum.lsxtv.com/showthread.php?t=241

    925hp at 9600 rpm on a 6L LSX. That works out to a bit over 100hp/liter, and it's N/A. It's in the 8's, where is your car at?

    Nope. I have absolutely no clue what I'm talking about. Stroke is the most important thing to high revving engines. But go ahead and continue talking about hp/liter like good ricers like it has anything to do with anything is racing. It's all about engine design and goals. Sticky has certain goals with his project, and wants to use a M3 base. That's cool, but an M3 the most responsive engine ever when comparing to other projects? Laughable.

  9. #334
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    925hp at 9600 rpm on a 6L LSX. That works out to a bit over 100hp/liter, and it's N/A. It's in the 8's, where is your car at?
    ALL Motor 8s with a 6MT Click here to enlarge
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  10. #335
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    This is kinda old news now as this was fancy in 2007, but I'll just leave this here. http://forum.lsxtv.com/showthread.php?t=241

    925hp at 9600 rpm on a 6L LSX. That works out to a bit over 100hp/liter, and it's N/A. It's in the 8's, where is your car at?

    Nope. I have absolutely no clue what I'm talking about. Stroke is the most important thing to high revving engines. But go ahead and continue talking about hp/liter like good ricers like it has anything to do with anything is racing. It's all about engine design and goals. Sticky has certain goals with his project, and wants to use a M3 base. That's cool, but an M3 the most responsive engine ever when comparing to other projects? Laughable.
    925hp on a N/A LSX? Nice! I don't even want to think about how crazy the cam they're running must be. Does it idle at 2000rpms? Click here to enlarge

    I'm confused as to what you mean when you say 'Stroke is the most important thing to high revving engines'. I've seen a lot of conflicting information over the years regarding stroke's importance. Many of the articles in the tech section on this site pretty much make it sound pointless; which I know not to be the case. My understanding is that increasing the stroke increases the amount of air drawn in on the intake stroke, but can be detrimental at higher rpms due to piston speeds. Is this correct? Trying to learn here, and like I said, I've seen a lot of conflicting info over the years; much of it I've seen proven wrong with a cursory glance at physics.

  11. #336
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    This is kinda old news now as this was fancy in 2007, but I'll just leave this here. http://forum.lsxtv.com/showthread.php?t=241

    925hp at 9600 rpm on a 6L LSX. That works out to a bit over 100hp/liter, and it's N/A. It's in the 8's, where is your car at?

    Nope. I have absolutely no clue what I'm talking about. Stroke is the most important thing to high revving engines. But go ahead and continue talking about hp/liter like good ricers like it has anything to do with anything is racing. It's all about engine design and goals. Sticky has certain goals with his project, and wants to use a M3 base. That's cool, but an M3 the most responsive engine ever when comparing to other projects? Laughable.
    One again wheel horsepower has nothing to do with it you're just talking about modifying for power, oh wow. I'm sure all the GT3 and Ferrari owners are lining up for LSX swaps. Living your life a 1/4 mile at a time much?

    No, you don't know what you are talking about. HP per liter on a 4.0 liter V8 shows high volumetric efficiency. Notice the M3 V8 racing in ALMS isn't running 8's? Notice it just smacked the Corvettes around? Of course you do, because yo know what you are talking about right? Hence why you mention wheel hp as if it has anything to do with the points made.

  12. #337
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    My understanding is that increasing the stroke increases the amount of air drawn in on the intake stroke, but can be detrimental at higher rpms due to piston speeds. Is this correct?
    Yes it increases piston speed guy doesn't know what he is talking about once again.

  13. #338
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    When going to very high revs, stroke is very important - to be short.

  14. #339
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    When going to very high revs, stroke is very important - to be short.
    Agreed. The article pretty much also says that the oversquare motor will outperform the square/undersquare in every scenario given the head/cam and gears are profiled to match accordingly. That is the part I'm not so sure about. It pretty much states that stroke does nothing except get in the way. Maybe I misread it, but I'm pretty well-up on my statics/dynamics Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    One again wheel horsepower has nothing to do with it you're just talking about modifying for power, oh wow. I'm sure all the GT3 and Ferrari owners are lining up for LSX swaps. Living your life a 1/4 mile at a time much?

    No, you don't know what you are talking about. HP per liter on a 4.0 liter V8 shows high volumetric efficiency. Notice the M3 V8 racing in ALMS isn't running 8's? Notice it just smacked the Corvettes around? Of course you do, because yo know what you are talking about right? Hence why you mention wheel hp as if it has anything to do with the points made.
    Not a simple comparison in ALMS, they "equalize" the cars and deliberately slow down fast cars via ballast and restrictors. There's not really any question that in a no-limits format the LSx engines are just flat out superior to the S65.

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  17. #342
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    ALMS is not a good example of M3 engine superiority because at the end of the day they are all just handicap racing just like thoughbred race horses.

    Some examples in different series

    Series organizer Stephane Ratel turned to the FIA, which put the matter in the hands of its technical consultant Peter Wright. Wright came up with a system that would allow fair competition between the cars. With Steffan Kosuch of DATAS, the performance of the Maserati was mapped, and then used real track data to equalize the cars. Air restrictor sizes were a key part of the equation, as was weight and, if the results still favored one car over another, the volume of fuel carried could also be changed. If, over two races, we see anything more than a half-second difference between the cars, then we act, Wright said at the time. We can generally get them to within a quarter of a second of each other.

    In the World Touring Car Championship contested by Chevrolet, BMW, SEAT and Alfa Romeo balance of performance used rev limits and weight handicaps. An FIA Bureau was set up, and new measures were being issued at each race. Balance of Performance had to accommodate saloon cars with hatchbacks, front-wheel drive with rear-wheel drive, H-pattern gearboxes with sequential, and most controversially, diesel power with gasoline.

    Some examples

    Lotus Evora
    -75kg (1120kg / -125kg from base)
    Porsche 911 GT3 RSR
    +0,4mm air restrictor (29,3mm / +0,7mm from base)
    +20kg (1220kg / -25kg from base)
    +100 height of the rear wing
    Front splitter extension & rear wing change

    Aston Martin Vantage
    -10kg (1185 / -60kg from base)
    Kevin
    2011 335is 7DCT/JB4 G5-ISO BMS Flash
    2013 135is 6MT - JB4 G5-ISO
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  18. #343
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    Omg lol. Long stroke is for high VE, that's what stroker kits are for. Short stroke for rpm. People buy gt3 and Porsches for racing, not necessarily quarter mile or high power. Displacement has nothing to do with high VE...

    I don't even know where to start with all the misinformation. Sticky, read this wiki on stroke ratio if you're confused. https://www.google.com/search?q=long...obile&ie=UTF-8

    And stop accusing people of not knowing what they are talking about, when they do, or you look dense. The m3 is not the best engine ever, nor is the lsx, nor is the n54. They all serve a purpose to someone. And I'm done.

  19. #344
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    When going to very high revs, stroke is very important - to be short.
    This. Followed closely by air velocity (being high).

  20. #345
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    By response I meant low end torque, power responsiveness, not how quickly it revs. From a throttle response point of view the M's are great. Porsche comes close. Sport bikes destroy them all. Still not sure how this is pertinent to anything really, I digress.
    How quickly something revs though is NOT what responsiveness is - nor is low end torque a measure of response. How quickly the revs sweep the dash is a function of gearing. How quickly the engine reacts to you pressing on the "gas" - that's responsiveness. Whereas there is lag on any engine (even NA) - the S motors are leap years ahead of most. Motorcycle engines are not even close either - I have had an R6 (fuel injected and buddy had carb - drove both) - which had a .6 liter engine making 120 HP at 14000ish RPMs (going off memory here) - but the throttle response wasn't near any NA M series I have driven either. And "low end torque" (at the crank)? Forget about it... Was it ridiculously quick? Yep. Could it pull from down low well? Yep. Could it sweep from idle to 14,000 RPM quicker than my S65 could? Yep. However, when I twist the throttle - did it respond like an S54 or S65? NO.

    Regarding low-end torque, the S65 makes 80% of peak torque from 2,000 RPM to redline. You make torque to the ground with gearing. Again - look at the C5 Z06 vs. the S65 powered M3 - yes, the LS makes more torque at the crank, but cannot use aggressive gearing due to it's relatively low redline. Basically, the S65 - to the ground makes more torque than the Z06 in 1st gear and matches it in 2nd.

    Click here to enlarge

  21. #346
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    This. Followed closely by air velocity (being high).
    Deleted post - didn't see your post..

  22. #347
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Omg lol. Long stroke is for high VE, that's what stroker kits are for. Short stroke for rpm. People buy gt3 and Porsches for racing, not necessarily quarter mile or high power. Displacement has nothing to do with high VE...

    I don't even know where to start with all the misinformation. Sticky, read this wiki on stroke ratio if you're confused. https://www.google.com/search?q=long...obile&ie=UTF-8

    And stop accusing people of not knowing what they are talking about, when they do, or you look dense. The m3 is not the best engine ever, nor is the lsx, nor is the n54. They all serve a purpose to someone. And I'm done.
    VE is not completely defendant on stroke - or vice versa, you know this right? You can have higher VE in an engine with less stroke than another - or vice versa. I am not sure what you are trying to say here - but depending on many factors, you may want to design an engine to be under-square (S54) or over-square (S65)... They are both high revving engines - and both have a very similar torque curve and VE.

  23. #348
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    VE is not completely defendant on stroke - or vice versa, you know this right? You can have higher VE in an engine with less stroke than another - or vice versa. I am not sure what you are trying to say here - but depending on many factors, you may want to design an engine to be under-square (S54) or over-square (S65)... They are both high revving engines - and both have a very similar torque curve and VE.
    That's exactly what I'm trying to say, engine VE is based on many things. Generally, for high rpm you decrease stroke. High VE, you increase stroke. Among many many other things from head design, cam timing for dynamic compression, scavenging, it's not related to displacement vs hp like sticky said "HP per liter on a 4.0 liter V8 shows high volumetric efficiency", VE is just the amount of air the engine pumps vs the theoretical maximum. Power output comes from more than that, fuel, timing, rpm... it's a general trend for na but not everything, like you said.

    For throttle response you're right. The S engines are a dream. The most responsive thing I've ever seen for throttle response was a sprint car running with ITB's on methanol. I've mentioned before how I used to race those. I really, really doubt any S engine can compare to that, look them up and tell me otherwise if I'm misguided. I raced the world of outlaws mini sprints at the shop I worked at, my opinions are from experience. But throttle response under free revving is also highly dependent on things other than VE as well, rotating assembly mass being one of them.

    Your previous post was very informative though. I have experience with only stock S engines, which are great, but I'd stop short of saying they are the "best" of what I've encountered. But unlike sticky, I'm perfectly ok with admitting I don't know, and haven't driven, everything.

  24. #349
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    When going to very high revs, stroke is very important - to be short.
    I wish my GF saw it this way...

  25. #350
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    LOL. Damn you, Dr Pepper on my keyboard now.

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