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  1. #1
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    Procede and Cobb Stacking Central

    All, I decided to create a dedicated thread to the topic. Since Shiv has disregarded all requests on this topic, we can use this as a central database to share our vehicle's setups, Cobb ATR Maps for fueling and overall results and performance on this setup. We know the JuiceBox and Cobb have provided great results when stacked, I am sure the Procede is up to task as well. I do not have anything to contribute at the moment but soon plan to as I start playing with this setup. @JoshBoody , @jpsimon , @The Ghost, Please provide all of your input on this subject as well as results, fuel setup/scaling in the Cobb mapping and everything else related so that we can move this subject forward.
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

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    Honestly I was going to ask why so many people stack with the JB instead of the Procede.

    And why is this being ignored?

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    Because Terry released maps, it's basically easy mode. Buy Cobb, load bms maps, change jb4 settings, enjoy proper backend and fancy features, happy happy.

    If he hadn't done it someone would have, maybe, maybe not. The tune fischer is quite large so that person who tried would have probably been cast out initially. Lol.

    Good luck guys, repped

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    Good luck with this guys, interested in results.
    Click here to enlarge
    MOTIV750, MOTIV P-1000 PI, MOTIV/FUEL-IT! low pressure fuel system, AEM EMS/COBB AP, Aquamist HFS-3, ETS FMIC, SPEC stage 3+ clutch/SS flywheel, BC Racing coilovers and VMR wheels wrapped in Hankook RS3s.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Because Terry released maps, it's basically easy mode. Buy Cobb, load bms maps, change jb4 settings, enjoy proper backend and fancy features, happy happy.

    If he hadn't done it someone would have, maybe, maybe not. The tune fischer is quite large so that person who tried would have probably been cast out initially. Lol.

    Good luck guys, repped
    And so I take it Shiv is too cool to do so?

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    Actually... his service, albeit annoying, time consuming, etc... makes him money and saves customers money. But yeah he's totally too much of a man to let Cobb help him, or give away the .bin for people to program themselves with the right tools freely... haha.

    Ohh and alleged special table changes not in atr/atp. Which if true I hate him for not making them public and sitting on memory addresses.

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    PTF Pro eTune by Dzenno / COBB S1+ E50
    Alpina B3 Flash / ETS FMIC / ER CP / DCI

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    glad to see more and more people are experimenting with this setup
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

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    I'm currently still on map 0, trying to get it working 100% on ATR - only. I've spent hours reading and tweaking to get boost to hold correctly.

    This is WAY easier on the procede - set the boost for RPM explicitly, and it hits it, all the time, without any other indirect settings.

    I really want the cylinder logging enabled, which is why I'm trying flash-only first. Once I get the flash-only working, I can toggle between the two, going to COBB when I change a significant setting (turbo, fuel, etc) to verify other cylinders, then go back to the procede for the snappiness.

    Last, the first impression of the COBB, is that it is well put together and the base maps are nice, but the throttle mapping is much, much more to my liking with the procede. The COBB mapping feels slugging (I'm using stock throttle mapping too).

    More to come and please keep sharing.
    Change is constant

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    Also, I began working on a procede stacked-map.

    Using Terry's advice, I attempted to remove all timing and OL fueling from the procede, and use it only for boost and throttle. I took my already tuned and proven procede map, zero'd the timing maps, set the AFR table to 50 across the board (I believe this is still "stock"), however I didn't know what to do with the OL fueling tables. I don't know what a pass-through/do nothing value is. Ideas?
    Change is constant

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by The Ghost Click here to enlarge
    Also, I began working on a procede stacked-map.

    Using Terry's advice, I attempted to remove all timing and OL fueling from the procede, and use it only for boost and throttle. I took my already tuned and proven procede map, zero'd the timing maps, set the AFR table to 50 across the board (I believe this is still "stock"), however I didn't know what to do with the OL fueling tables. I don't know what a pass-through/do nothing value is. Ideas?
    Same advice I have given to those who run our ProcedeFlash: Start off by cutting OL fuel values in 1/2 and adjusting from there. Chances are that, with your flash, you raised you DME boost targets to 12-13psi which is still less boost than you are actually running. So you will want/need some amount of positive OL fuel values to keep trims reasonable. Also set all the values in the AFR offset table to 50 since you won't need any AFR adjust once you raise your DME boost targets.

    Other than that, some interesting comments in this thread Click here to enlarge

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    I'm in for this combo as well.......

    Joshboody has been a good resource and Shiv just confirmed what Josh is doing as a starting point.

    My understanding is to change the AF table values in Procede to 50 which is the stock setting. Cobb manages the fueling from there.

    Watch your fuel trims and adjust them accordingly via the Procede Open Loop table as necessary.

    I too like the simplicity and accuracy of the Procede boost control, so that remains intact.

    For those of use invested in the PWM kit, you still retain the methanol control you have always enjoyed with Procede and it's built in failsafe functions.....so that is a plus.

    I'm not quite sure about timing though - I would imagine that Cobb controls that directly as well but I am not sure if you would make changes directly to the Cobb timing table or use the Procede's CPS offsetting?

    The major downside is that you still cannot log timing on all 6 cylinders via the procede logs and I don't think you can datalog on Cobb while the Procede is active due to canbus limiits? Click here to enlarge

    Have I got this right so far? Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    Same advice I have given to those who run our ProcedeFlash: Start off by cutting OL fuel values in 1/2 and adjusting from there. Chances are that, with your flash, you raised you DME boost targets to 12-13psi which is still less boost than you are actually running. So you will want/need some amount of positive OL fuel values to keep trims reasonable. Also set all the values in the AFR offset table to 50 since you won't need any AFR adjust once you raise your DME boost targets.

    Other than that, some interesting comments in this thread Click here to enlarge
    Many of us are slightly irritated or frustrated with you. We have spent thousands on your products, don't want to switch, and just want a flash map for larger than stock turbos to run with your product that can be flashed at home. You don't respond to those requests and leave us to figure it out on our own. Many don't want to ship their ECU across country to flash and unflash, reflash.

    1) In Feb 2012 you were still insisting no flash was needed, and procede was fine for fuel control even on a single turbo setup - "There's a small group of folks out there who are trying very hard to convince others that only a flash can control fuel properly. I've never agreed with them because actual testing that I'VE ACTUALLY DONE suggested otherwise. ="Procede Fuel Control" thread

    2) In June 2012 you mentioned adding the flash to your single kit. "We clean up the ignition mapping, change the load targets slightly and modify the AFR target table which means we don't have to apply as much (or any) wideband bias. The upside for that is that logged AFR values are now actual, not "corrected". The massaged timing tables provide more timing stability which is important at these higher power levels." and, "The Procede still adjusts AFR targets, timing and fuel pressure. Both on and off meth to difference degrees. But offset are smaller since the DME has been reflashed to follow a more appropriate ignition advance and lambda tables." from [SIZE=1.5] Vishnu/FFTEC Single Turbo: Released! [/SIZE] thread.

    3) August 2012 - You mention the procedeflash is available for upgraded twins by shipping the DME. "If you need a higher fuel ceiling and higher rev limits, we can reflash your DME accordingly for $100. The higher DME boost targets combined with the PROcede OL Fuel adjustments gives it a much higher fuel ceiling than either approach alone. Same tuning approach used in our 700+hp single turbo kits. The RB turbos will run out of steam before your fuel system does." - from Procede and RB Turbos thread.

    4) August 2012 - You say to wait a few months for a cheaper at home solution from you, and that you will post up the week of August 20th 2012, the addresses for the tables that need to be adjusted for Cobb users. "If mailing a dme isn't feasible, one option is to wait a few months for another at-home solution. It should be more affordable/flexible that current at-home options. Regardless, next week I'll post up addresses for the tables that need to be altered for those running Cobb tunes. It will have to be up to the guys at Cobb to make these tables accessible via their tuning software." - same Procede and RB Turbos thread - (727917)

    5) Now we have seen some evidence for months that others are able to make the adjustments with cobb on their own or with another tuner.

    It would be nice to see you follow through on both the home flash option and/or the option for people with Cobb, instead of leaving many of your good customers to watch as people experiment with a Procede + Cobb stack, or others enjoy nice logs with another tuner.

    Scott
    Click here to enlarge
    Rob Beck Turbos, PROcede Rev. 3, Procede Fueling Flash (via OpenFlash Tablet), PPS Methanol System (DO12/Aquamist Flow Sensor), DCI, Quaife LSD, BMW Performance Suspension, Autobahn Exotics Exhaust, Helix FMIC, AR Design Downpipes, BSH Catch Can, Forge Diverter Valves, P3cars Vent Boost Gauge, Alufelgen CSL Reps, Lux 5.1 H8 Angel Eyes, HPB HID Fogs, LTBMW M3 Side Skirts, BMW M3 Rear Spoiler, BMW Front Aero Lip, BMW Pedal Kit, BMW M Shift Knob, Autotecknic Matte Black Grilles.

  14. #14
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    I hope this helps the guys with bigger turbos as well but my personal agenda is higher concentrations of E85 on stockers.
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    Same advice I have given to those who run our ProcedeFlash: Start off by cutting OL fuel values in 1/2 and adjusting from there. Chances are that, with your flash, you raised you DME boost targets to 12-13psi which is still less boost than you are actually running. So you will want/need some amount of positive OL fuel values to keep trims reasonable. Also set all the values in the AFR offset table to 50 since you won't need any AFR adjust once you raise your DME boost targets.

    Other than that, some interesting comments in this thread Click here to enlarge
    Thanks. I'm actually hitting 18psi on the OTS e30 maps, but good advice. I'll leave OL to a similar value that I had with the procede flash.
    Change is constant

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    Here's a thread from sometime ago with details. I read over it and still accurate. There's a few wording mistakes and I've learned more since of course, but still the basics. http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...ocede-Cobb-ATR

    Very simply:
    Set load around 155
    Value 50 for AFR bias
    Cut OL by 1/2 to start
    Use CPS in map1 for off meth
    Tune AFR and timing in ATR
    Maybe reduce VANOS x-axis load points based on load table

    once peeps can get a base tune, we can discuss some of the nuances to optimize the setup.
    Last edited by JoshBoody; 04-13-2013 at 12:11 PM.

  17. #17
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Because Terry released maps, it's basically easy mode. Buy Cobb, load bms maps, change jb4 settings, enjoy proper backend and fancy features, happy happy.
    We made the process fairly easy and adopted it early. We even sell the AP (and beat any price on them) making it sort of a one stop shop sort of a deal. Click here to enlarge

    Anyway happy to offer advice as time allows. The main "trick" of this is to decide how much load you want to run on the DME side and then how to set the fuel scalars and piggyback to accommodate that. Certain aspects of how the JB4 is programmed might make it better suited than the procede for stacking. For example all JB4 sensor offsets (o2 bias, open loop, cps, etc) are a function of actual boost vs. DME observed boost. As a simple example if the DME is observing 13psi and actual boost is 13psi the JB4 will have a zero open loop offset in place despite your settings. But once actual boost goes to 14psi the JB4 will give only a small amount of the offset as boost is only 1psi higher than factory. This makes the system a lot more dynamic, and tuning in part throttle and odd load targets smoother and easier.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 04-13-2013 at 12:36 PM.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    I have a Procede rev 3 sitting in my closet couldn't sell it cause it was vin locked, but I do miss certain features on it. Im currently running cobb pro tune with my HFS-4. I would actually love to see what the difference on how it feel if it were stacked. Also I miss gauge hacking, NLS, 2step, and the fail safe for meth that the PROcede offers. Wish this was an easy fix to stack but right now after reading all this sounds a but complicated. So I guess Ill have to wait until people who are more tech/tuning savy iron this out.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 3-Serious Click here to enlarge
    I have a Procede rev 3 sitting in my closet couldn't sell it cause it was vin locked, but I do miss certain features on it. Im currently running cobb pro tune with my HFS-4. I would actually love to see what the difference on how it feel if it were stacked. Also I miss gauge hacking, NLS, 2step, and the fail safe for meth that the PROcede offers. Wish this was an easy fix to stack but right now after reading all this sounds a but complicated. So I guess Ill have to wait until people who are more tech/tuning savy iron this out.
    Buy the AP from us and I'll send you our backend flash map. No changes are really needed. Just install and go. Click here to enlarge
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  20. #20
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by scottp999 Click here to enlarge
    Many of us are slightly irritated or frustrated with you. We have spent thousands on your products, don't want to switch, and just want a flash map for larger than stock turbos to run with your product that can be flashed at home. You don't respond to those requests and leave us to figure it out on our own. Many don't want to ship their ECU across country to flash and unflash, reflash.

    1) In Feb 2012 you were still insisting no flash was needed, and procede was fine for fuel control even on a single turbo setup - "There's a small group of folks out there who are trying very hard to convince others that only a flash can control fuel properly. I've never agreed with them because actual testing that I'VE ACTUALLY DONE suggested otherwise. ="Procede Fuel Control" thread

    2) In June 2012 you mentioned adding the flash to your single kit. "We clean up the ignition mapping, change the load targets slightly and modify the AFR target table which means we don't have to apply as much (or any) wideband bias. The upside for that is that logged AFR values are now actual, not "corrected". The massaged timing tables provide more timing stability which is important at these higher power levels." and, "The Procede still adjusts AFR targets, timing and fuel pressure. Both on and off meth to difference degrees. But offset are smaller since the DME has been reflashed to follow a more appropriate ignition advance and lambda tables." from [SIZE=1.5] Vishnu/FFTEC Single Turbo: Released! [/SIZE] thread.

    3) August 2012 - You mention the procedeflash is available for upgraded twins by shipping the DME. "If you need a higher fuel ceiling and higher rev limits, we can reflash your DME accordingly for $100. The higher DME boost targets combined with the PROcede OL Fuel adjustments gives it a much higher fuel ceiling than either approach alone. Same tuning approach used in our 700+hp single turbo kits. The RB turbos will run out of steam before your fuel system does." - from Procede and RB Turbos thread.

    4) August 2012 - You say to wait a few months for a cheaper at home solution from you, and that you will post up the week of August 20th 2012, the addresses for the tables that need to be adjusted for Cobb users. "If mailing a dme isn't feasible, one option is to wait a few months for another at-home solution. It should be more affordable/flexible that current at-home options. Regardless, next week I'll post up addresses for the tables that need to be altered for those running Cobb tunes. It will have to be up to the guys at Cobb to make these tables accessible via their tuning software." - same Procede and RB Turbos thread - (727917)

    5) Now we have seen some evidence for months that others are able to make the adjustments with cobb on their own or with another tuner.

    It would be nice to see you follow through on both the home flash option and/or the option for people with Cobb, instead of leaving many of your good customers to watch as people experiment with a Procede + Cobb stack, or others enjoy nice logs with another tuner.

    Scott
    He's the world's fastest something alright...

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    Ok, after a several road sessions, I have my Cobb map nearly mirroring my proven procede map. The boost curve is near identical, the AFRs the same (procede 0.5:1 leaner), both e60, and timing the same until 5500rpms where the procede ramps from 12.5 to 15.x at redline (Cobb stays near 12 deg).

    Next step is to slowly add timing to the top end to mirror the procede curve, to get the same top-end pull. The maxed fuel trims I was seeing with my procede flash are gone now (max in high teens) that I undid that and went to the Cobb.

    At this point, I don't know if I'll re-enable the procede as the maps are both close. Perhaps I will just to get it working and have an alternate setup for the track for 2-step.

    I've attached the two logs (both long 4th gear). This was good for 435whp/440wtq (the log is from the dyno session).
    Attached Images Attached Images   
    Change is constant

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Buy the AP from us and I'll send you our backend flash map. No changes are really needed. Just install and go. Click here to enlarge
    If I didn't have a Cobb and proceed already that's exactly what I'd be doing! The proceed has been just sitting in my closet.

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    Any more info?

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    PTF PROTuned | RB's | AMS FMIC | AR DP's | HPF Exhaust | CP-E DCI | Apex Arc 8's | 235/275 Star Specs |

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