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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    When you buy the Cobb from us to add the BMS flash map included in that is us reviewing your maps and making any tweaks that need to be made. Which is the same service PTF offers only they charge $250 for it. It just so happens that the JB4 is so good at learning things that rarely does much need to be changed other than adding or removing a degree of timing here and there, or adjusting flash map fuel scaling. Like I said I don't really understand why someone who has already paid for a Cobb unit would spend $250 more for just a map that has no resale value when you can get a JB4, everything it offers, and its custom tuning support for only $500. Other than the flash only nazis. But different strokes for different folks. There is plenty of business for everyone. Even Shiv.
    Your approach with the BMS Flash is quite different actually. Its not a high output customized map for a given car. Its something that works well in a stacked setup with the JB4. JB4 is quite good at auto-detuning boost when it perceives meth flow issues either indirectly through its FSB (meh) or directly via an external flow sensor (much better). Manipulating timing through CPS offsetting however can get sketchy as discussed before and in that sense I wouldn't say its "good" but I guess it can get you by if you play within its limits/range. As a counter argument to your 250 argument I'd say why would someone spend 500 on the JB for tuning features (outside its in-dash gauges) you can't customize without asking BMS/Terry for free development cycles and custom firmware? For instance, look at @cstavaru tuning his own RB car. He could do the same with a VTT Stage 3 car now too, free of charge for himself without waiting on a third party for help. All the skills required to tune an RB car can now be applied to tuning any other similar setup and all he paid for was a Cobb AP.

    In the end no solution on the market is perfect or 100% complete and that's just fact. Everyone works with the tools they feel work and suit their style best. Mudding up things with confusing nomenclature though is simply unnecessary and in a way funny (e.g. JB4 Flash via Cobb AP). Free country though Click here to enlarge

  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Your approach with the BMS Flash is quite different actually. Its not a high output customized map for a given car.
    That isn't true. We optimize the tuning for their particular vehicle, which involves making special flash mapping changes specifically for them if there is a benefit. Often there isn't. Sometimes there is. Depends on the circumstances.

    Generally speaking cars running certain common combinations like E50+ with factory turbos, or RB turbos + meth, we've tuned so many of them our existing maps for them are a perfect fit. In other cases like when tuning for specific pump fuels, high elevation, or some unique set of mods, we need to do an entirely custom setup for them. No biggie. It's included with our flash mapping. Where we almost never need to spend any time is on boost/throttle control as that is a fully adaptive system on the JB4 that requires almost no user intervention across a very wide range of boost targets and conditions.

    In terms of what they get for the money we don't have a per map charge. Right now we just continue working with them on whatever they need as long as they need it. How do you handle that aspect? I noticed it's $250 for the first map and $100 for each additional map? Can they continue to tweak that first map for 2 years? At what point does it become a second map? When they switch octane? I think we're probably seriously undercharging for the service right now to be honest. Especially when we need to price match the AP for $725 or whatever these online vendors sell them for.

    In terms of having to ask us for map changes, don't they do the same thing with your setup? Email you if they need a flash change? On the JB4 end they can user adjust several things on their own including switching boost and fuel profiles on the fly, etc, so normally once the back end flash mapping is set they only need to change that around if they make a drastic octane change (like going from 50% E85 to straight pump. When using E85 we normally suggest they use map 5 which will adjust fuel trims and boost to match the specific mix of E85 they use in case it changes, etc. How do you handle tuning for a car that runs E30 sometimes and E60 other times? Two maps? Is it $350 then? And we provide them with maps for straight pump as well as part of the service. With the AP they can load any map they want and I've asked Cobb to unlock our setup so anyone can open and tweak our flash maps on their own. As we get better at it we're finding better and better ways to make it user adjustable or self adjustable saving us and the customer time and energy.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 03-27-2013 at 10:05 PM.
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  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dirty Dog Click here to enlarge
    Grow up DZ. Your attacks on BMS make you look real cheap and desperate. Your still only a student when it comes to the N54. So you learnt a little from Shiv then Terry then COBB and now your a "PROtuner"....Click here to enlarge
    There's some truth here.

  4. #29
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    And if Shiv is teaching the class then that's a school with some low standards.

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    And if Shiv is teaching the class then that's a school with some low standards.
    We've all learned a lot from Shiv over the years but only a fraction of them are things we wanted to learn. Click here to enlarge
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    There's some truth here.
    And you know it.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    And if Shiv is teaching the class then that's a school with some low standards.
    Click here to enlarge


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    We've all learned a lot from Shiv over the years but only a fraction of them are things we wanted to learn. Click here to enlarge
    Well Said Click here to enlarge

  7. #32
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    This forum is nothing if not entertaining. D dishes it to Terry on occasion, Terry dishes it to D on others.

    The main reasons I stack OP are because 1) I'm a control freak and 2) I like to have all tuning options available to me. Also I'm lazy and like the gauges.

    Let me illustrate why I stack with a cps offsetting example. Dzenno downplays cps offset as being a bad way to control timing. I agree. So does Terry ironically, although he supports it. Shiv is the only tuner who swears by it and he's wrong here. However it is a great example of a tuning tool, while I would never *control* timing with it (that's best done by the dme on a true crank signal aka cobb), it is very useful for methanol failsafe systems for one popular example. Something the flash cannot do yet, but a piggyback can exploit if equipped. Just another tool.

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Thanks for all of the info, it shows how much I do not know about tuning. Looks like I better get to the learning

  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    That isn't true. We optimize the tuning for their particular vehicle, which involves making special flash mapping changes specifically for them if there is a benefit. Often there isn't. Sometimes there is. Depends on the circumstances.
    I went by what others told me when they asked for custom changes in their maps for their car. It was a while back so this is new to me. So if people ask for a custom throttle mapping or different octane what do you do in that case? Just paste in a timing you feel should work well? How many iterations do you do typically before deeming your flash map working well? How do you confirm these changes are good when you see just 1 cylinder? Do you datalog the flash on its own first?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Generally speaking cars running certain common combinations like E50+ with factory turbos, or RB turbos + meth, we've tuned so many of them our existing maps for them are a perfect fit. In other cases like when tuning for specific pump fuels, high elevation, or some unique set of mods, we need to do an entirely custom setup for them. No biggie. It's included with our flash mapping. Where we almost never need to spend any time is on boost/throttle control as that is a fully adaptive system on the JB4 that requires almost no user intervention across a very wide range of boost targets and conditions.
    This is where the key difference between our approaches lies. We have a car in Sweden running E50 with RBs putting down some impressive numbers without meth on both dyno and 60-130mph. On that same mix another car elsewhere preferred a different timing/boost/fuel setup. Sometimes VANOS is done differently and we recalibrate all others along with it to suit the car but not always for all out power but also driveability (which I've more than once heard was quite bad on the JB+flash stack). In addition to that we make our custom maps tailored to where they'll be used (e.g. street, drag vs road course) as many things outside of power can also be optimized for each one. In other words, quite a bit of attention is paid to each and every car we do and regardless of where the numbers never disappoint. In addition to that we guarantee gains and overall improvement in the tune once we're done or its money back, no questions asked.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    In terms of what they get for the money we don't have a per map charge. Right now we just continue working with them on whatever they need as long as they need it. How do you handle that aspect? I noticed it's $250 for the first map and $100 for each additional map? Can they continue to tweak that first map for 2 years? At what point does it become a second map? When they switch octane? I think we're probably seriously undercharging for the service right now to be honest. Especially when we need to price match the AP for $725 or whatever these online vendors sell them for.
    Answered some of this above. You are correct. The additional map is done when a major change in octane is done. It is also done when changing a key piece of hardware such as turbos and going with bigger units due to the amount of time/effort spent in calibration.

    In terms of people coming back asking for changes. I had a customer actually just this week who was in our first group buy come back to ask for a slight change to their map. @lawwailok I think is the username. It was throttle mapping related and I worked with him to get it adjusted, free of charge of course. This is almost a year later. We look at logs from past customers but also non-customers all the time too. No one is ever left to dry and we are available to tweak any map all the time.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    In terms of having to ask us for map changes, don't they do the same thing with your setup? Email you if they need a flash change? On the JB4 end they can user adjust several things on their own including switching boost and fuel profiles on the fly, etc, so normally once the back end flash mapping is set they only need to change that around if they make a drastic octane change (like going from 50% E85 to straight pump. When using E85 we normally suggest they use map 5 which will adjust fuel trims and boost to match the specific mix of E85 they use in case it changes, etc. How do you handle tuning for a car that runs E30 sometimes and E60 other times? Two maps? Is it $350 then? And we provide them with maps for straight pump as well as part of the service. With the AP they can load any map they want and I've asked Cobb to unlock our setup so anyone can open and tweak our flash maps on their own. As we get better at it we're finding better and better ways to make it user adjustable or self adjustable saving us and the customer time and energy.
    Yes, we work with them through our etuning process to get the maps calibrated. Given that the tuning aspect of the JB in the stacked configuration is primarily boost control the end user has no way customizing it at all. Outside of absolute boost targets, PID or any wgdc tables are exposed for calibration. So they're stuck with it until BMS finds time in their schedule (which can be never until enough demand is created in the market) to make the changes a given user wants to have from the JB4's boost control. For instance, PID and handling of very differently responding turbos such as Stage 3s doesn't allow the end user to adjust and fine tune JB4's boost control until firmware is adjusted first. Its auto tuning for boost will do a decent job in learning but it can only do so much until BMS programs the firmware. On the AP however, outside the current boost limit, you have many of the key boost control tables exposed. Some additions would be nice (e.g. wgdc based on gear for instance) but what's there is working very well for many.

    In terms of pricing already described above. Have you tried sending your maps saved as "Race" instead of "Pro". That should make them readable, no?
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 03-27-2013 at 11:35 PM.

  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    This forum is nothing if not entertaining. D dishes it to Terry on occasion, Terry dishes it to D on others.
    I guess that's one way we have fun sometimes LOL student/prof and all haha

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    The main reasons I stack OP are because 1) I'm a control freak and 2) I like to have all tuning options available to me. Also I'm lazy and like the gauges.
    Its fine being a control freak but since you don't care for timing in other than the 1st cylinder you're not OCD yet Click here to enlarge I'm a control freak and OCD! haha

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Let me illustrate why I stack with a cps offsetting example. Dzenno downplays cps offset as being a bad way to control timing. I agree. So does Terry ironically, although he supports it. Shiv is the only tuner who swears by it and he's wrong here. However it is a great example of a tuning tool, while I would never *control* timing with it (that's best done by the dme on a true crank signal aka cobb), it is very useful for methanol failsafe systems for one popular example. Something the flash cannot do yet, but a piggyback can exploit if equipped. Just another tool.
    Very well said. However to add to that we've got a nifty little piece of electronics to play with on IAT based offset to the T-MAP sensor that may find its way into the integrated failsafe one day if it works out well with the DME Click here to enlarge

  11. #36
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by avolt1234 Click here to enlarge
    Thanks for all of the info, it shows how much I do not know about tuning. Looks like I better get to the learning
    OP- first, identify your goals for the car. How much power do you want? Which mods do you see in your future? Are you willing to pay to have a custom map made for your car? Do you have e85 access? Those are the most important things to guide your choice imo.

    JB4 is ideal for light mods and 50% e85 mixes, and great with meth. It will beg for octane. It has a bunch of additional things it can do not engine control related.

    Cobb is great for dialing everything in perfect if you have the patience and skill. Their OTS maps (non custom maps) are going to provide similar gains to the jb4 but without the extra features. It is the only route for heavy e85 concentrations, and gives you access to a pro tune from protuning freaks which I've heard are great.

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Its fine being a control freak but since you don't care for timing in other than the 1st cylinder you're not OCD yet Click here to enlarge I'm a control freak and OCD! haha



    Very well said. However to add to that we've got a nifty little piece of electronics to play with on IAT based offset to the T-MAP sensor that may find its way into the integrated failsafe one day if it works out well with the DME Click here to enlarge
    Haha awesome! I'm glad you're constantly pushing the flash tunes. And you're right I'm not too OCD but it's a good trait for a tuner. Just because I don't see the other corrections doesn't mean they aren't taking place. I trust the dme to handle itself mostly. I run e85 so timing isn't a big concern to me from a detonation standpoint, mostly just a "how much do I have" standpoint lol.

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    1 out of 3 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Tuners, post some datalogs. I'd like to see some logs with "stepping" the throttle. Maybe 20, 50, 100%. Curious to see PTF's... I might be surprised.

    I really thought about this, and my conclusion (before seeing logs) is that pro-tune versus stacked... Simply, stacked drives better. Flash you have to get just right, but very easily this can be my tuning inabilities. Thinking about giving it another go, or giving Jake an inquiry out of curiosity. But the process seems a little involved.

    You can do everything (tuning wise) stacked as you can flashed, but stacked gives additional options, IMO safety (not a concern so far and may never be a concern), and I suspect better drivability.

    Lets see some logs...

  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    I went by what others told me when they asked for custom changes in their maps for their car. It was a while back so this is new to me. So if people ask for a custom throttle mapping or different octane what do you do in that case? Just paste in a timing you feel should work well? How many iterations do you do typically before deeming your flash map working well? How do you confirm these changes are good when you see just 1 cylinder? Do you datalog the flash on its own first?

    For instance, PID and handling of very differently responding turbos such as Stage 3s doesn't allow the end user to adjust and fine tune JB4's boost control until firmware is adjusted first. Its auto tuning for boost will do a decent job in learning but it can only do so much until BMS programs the firmware.
    Most things a user would want to adjust like throttle boost response are done on the JB4 end and they can change those directly. For setting boost / advance / afr curves I use my years of experience and judgement, along with cylinder 1 monitoring. I have certain curves I'm very comfortable with and they've served our customers well. Not to say we can't change things up if a customer has certain specific needs. To me the most important thing has always been having more flexible than stock safety system in place. So if there are repetitive timing drops at very high boost levels, or AFR is going above a certain level at a certain boost/rpm, or fuel trims maxing out, etc, I want the tuning to catch that and kick over to a failsafe. I can't achieve that with a flash tune at this time. To me safety is less about what happens when you're watching carefully and more about what is going on when you're not looking racing on a Friday night. I'd love to get cyl2-6 logging going like we have active in the F30/N20 tuning. It will happen one of these days.

    On base wastegate dutycycle, transitional variables, PID constants, etc, those are user adjustable with scalar variables. The JB4 builds a base duty cycle curve based on the dutycycle profile. So it's a pretty solid adaptive system. I would not expect a user to throw a JB4 on top of say Vargas Stage3 turbos on his own and be the first ones to dial that in. We would get things close on our end and ensure there were no bugs with them. Then we would incorporate that in to the JB4 just like we do for the stock turbo and RB turbo maps that are in there currently. Then it's smooth sailing for everyone.

    On the rest it's not really worth a comment other than to say we're happy to work with any customer to get the tuning to wherever it needs to be for their needs. Smooth to one person is lazy to another and responsive to another is uneven to the next. We'll help them sort it out whatever their criteria might be.

    In terms of pricing already described above. Have you tried sending your maps saved as "Race" instead of "Pro". That should make them readable, no?
    No need to repeat myself on the pricing points. On the map locking I've saved them as "race" and that works but only if I fill in the exact serial number for them. Not if I leave it all 0s. Which tends to be a pain in the ass as each time I want to send one out I have to save a special version and recall their serial number. Another problem is lately I've been running experimental tables from Cobb that are not in the user "Race" system so it's a bit of a cluster $#@! if users try to edit something. We've sent plenty race maps out despite that though. It's just always such a pita to deal with serial numbers and locked maps. I'm sure it will be resolved sooner or later.

    I presume you don't lock maps sent out so your customers can say remove a degree of advance or adjust a fuel scalar if they want on the fly?
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 03-28-2013 at 01:22 AM.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Tuners, post some datalogs. I'd like to see some logs with "stepping" the throttle. Maybe 20, 50, 100%. Curious to see PTF's... I might be surprised.

    I really thought about this, and my conclusion (before seeing logs) is that pro-tune versus stacked... Simply, stacked drives better. Flash you have to get just right, but very easily this can be my tuning inabilities. Thinking about giving it another go, or giving Jake an inquiry out of curiosity. But the process seems a little involved.
    Sounds like you're overestimating your tuning skill. Are you just taking guesses when tuning and just making sure you have clean logs, or are you actually making adjustments with intent? I'd recommend you get in a PROtuned car by a professional tuner and experience the difference.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    You can do everything (tuning wise) stacked as you can flashed, but stacked gives additional options, IMO safety (not a concern so far and may never be a concern), and I suspect better drivability.
    Not sure what additional safety you get from running stacked as opposed to strictly flashed?? And don't say meth because if you use a proper meth system with an independent failsafe (like the Aquamist HFS-3), then everything is good.
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    Benzy post some stepped logs, as i requested... I will also. Preferably attaching the csv. BT is fine, i can list the channels needed.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Benzy post some stepped logs, as i requested... I will also. Preferably attaching the csv. BT is fine, i can list the channels needed.
    If my AP wasn't in Texas getting repaired by COBB right now (busted screen), I'd have no problem doing that. But it looks like I won't get it until mid-next week since it just got there today (Wednesday).
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Not sure what additional safety you get from running stacked as opposed to strictly flashed?? And don't say meth because if you use a proper meth system with an independent failsafe (like the Aquamist HFS-3), then everything is good.
    I dont think there is any consensus here, dumping your WGs as a meth safety must be slower than dropping timing and closing throttle (which the piggies scare the DME into doing) AND dumping boost.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I presume you don't lock maps sent out so your customers can say remove a degree of advance or adjust a fuel scalar if they want on the fly?
    Good question!
    700 and change

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Most things a user would want to adjust like throttle boost response are done on the JB4 end and they can change those directly. For setting boost / advance / afr curves I use my years of experience and judgement, along with cylinder 1 monitoring. I have certain curves I'm very comfortable with and they've served our customers well. Not to say we can't change things up if a customer has certain specific needs. To me the most important thing has always been having more flexible than stock safety system in place. So if there are repetitive timing drops at very high boost levels, or AFR is going above a certain level at a certain boost/rpm, or fuel trims maxing out, etc, I want the tuning to catch that and kick over to a failsafe. I can't achieve that with a flash tune at this time. To me safety is less about what happens when you're watching carefully and more about what is going on when you're not looking racing on a Friday night. I'd love to get cyl2-6 logging going like we have active in the F30/N20 tuning. It will happen one of these days.
    Simplifying things for the end-user is great for sure. Many will/do find it easy to adjust say a map6 and its boost settings quite easy. However, many more have issues with overshoot/undershoot that they simply can't fix as they have no proper access to WGDC, PID tables to make the changes required unless they're made in the firmware which you only have access to. Any plans on making the firmware open source or at the least expanding the end user software to make it easier to adjust boost control at a more fine grained level than just saying [email]boost@RPM ? It'd help many of those, especially 6MT cars, that have issues with bogging. Almost all if not all piggyback-ed 6MT cars (stacked or not) bog still today. Some 6MT flash cars also can also experience bogging but it can be worked out given the boost control tables necessary to fix this particular issue are exposed. @cstavaru brought up an example of such a fix that worked on his car.

    Adding that timing correction logging to the JB4 is a must IMHO to tuning a high hp N54 with larger than stock frame turbos. One of "these days" sounds a lot sooner than "some day" Click here to enlarge Hopefully it happens before you tackle some big lungs so you can tune with all the visibility the platform inherently provides already.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Smooth to one person is lazy to another and responsive to another is uneven to the next. We'll help them sort it out whatever their criteria might be.
    Agree. This is why we customize every tune we do as well and work on it until the end result is as good as it can be given the customer's end goals. Not everyone wants an OTS approach to tuning their car. OTS maps are there as great base maps that work very well for many but for others they'd like to have something a bit more custom to their liking whether its power delivery, throttle mapping, etc.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    No need to repeat myself on the pricing points. On the map locking I've saved them as "race" and that works but only if I fill in the exact serial number for them. Not if I leave it all 0s. Which tends to be a pain in the ass as each time I want to send one out I have to save a special version and recall their serial number. Another problem is lately I've been running experimental tables from Cobb that are not in the user "Race" system so it's a bit of a cluster $#@! if users try to edit something. We've sent plenty race maps out despite that though. It's just always such a pita to deal with serial numbers and locked maps. I'm sure it will be resolved sooner or later.
    Its really simple to save a map with a customer's serial number in say that customer's folder and keep your master copy in another. If/when they come back you simply look at their serial in the previously sent map and copy/paste it over. Not even 20secs literally. How is that too hard? It'd definitely be more convenient not to have to do that and I guess that's coming. But in the meantime if a customer asks to have the unlocked version of their map it is certainly doable on your end.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I presume you don't lock maps sent out so your customers can say remove a degree of advance or adjust a fuel scalar if they want on the fly?
    Not sure why you'd presume that. All of our maps are always locked. The customers who asked for the maps to be unlocked we kindly have to refuse tuning. This is what every pro tuner listed on the Cobb's pro tuner page does. Providing our maps unlocked would mean giving away our IP gathered through many hours of R&D free of charge. That'd be similar to you open sourcing the JB4 firmware for instance. Should I presume you're open sourcing the JB4 firmware and opening up its boost control for the capable end-users to adjust/reprogram?

    As mentioned earlier, we simply work with our customers in adjusting anything it may be in their map until its done in accordance with their goals. There are no time limits, no limits to the number of emails we'll respond to, no limits to the number of iterations we'll do to get the job done. The only limit we have right now is a boost limit in the DME Click here to enlarge but there are ways around that too...

    Our services don't end after an hour or two on a dyno as it is with many tuners out there once they have someone's payment. No question/email was ever left unanswered. Many of our customers are on this and other forums actively participating. For one we're enthusiasts and enjoy this stuff day in day out. For two it'd simply be bad business practices for us not to go out of our way to help each one of them with whatever issues/concerns they may have at any given time with any of the work we've ever done with them. Again, if anything for any reason doesn't end up working out as expected on the customer's end its full money back, no questions asked, we suck it up in terms of our time invested and move on.
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 03-28-2013 at 10:43 AM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Benzy post some stepped logs, as i requested... I will also. Preferably attaching the csv. BT is fine, i can list the channels needed.
    Was just looking at a customers log this morning and noticed a funny step in it. Seems he forgot he had not floored the car part way through the run. Or doesn't know about the kick down. Click here to enlarge
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 03-28-2013 at 12:40 PM.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Not sure why you'd presume that. All of our maps are always locked. The customers who asked for the maps to be unlocked we kindly have to refuse tuning. This is what every pro tuner listed on the Cobb's pro tuner page does. Providing our maps unlocked would mean giving away our IP gathered through many hours of R&D free of charge.
    I don't really follow the logic. The service they are buying is evaluating their car and adjusting their mapping as needed to maximize their performance, safety, and/or whatever other various tuning objectives they have. No two cars are going to be alike, right? I would only see a locked map scenario if you are just giving each customer the same basic map with only minor tweaks and didn't want them to compare notes. Once you get the mapping close they should be able to make minor tweaks on their own if they want/need. Just my opinion.

    On the JB4 end it's a little different as the firmware and the mapping are combined in to one file. We can't easily separate the two. The Haltech/procede model might be a better example. The firmware is locked meaning you can't make your own haltech box and flash it. But the tuning maps are open to the end user for adjustment.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Was just looking at a customers log this morning and noticed a funny step in it. Seems he forgot he had not floored the car part way through the run. Or doesn't knock about the kick down.
    Looks good, nice control. I like throwing a couple steps in when logging… really shows any weaknesses at part throttle, which plays into drivability.

    Overall I think I was fairly successful tuning with ATR, but stacked just offers a little better control for me and I suspect this is true for most… thus the request to view some PTF stepped logs… I know Terry can dial it in. If I saw similar control with Cobb then I would consider attempting again myself (or potentially purchasing) a strong unstacked tune as comparison/curiosity. But I’m skeptical in part throttle boost control and torque interventions.

    I still get some torque intervention, like in one of the logs below and I think this can be tuned out (or limited by increasing torque limits)… but I kinda stopped refining and just enjoying now. The little bit that does interfere is not really noticeable.
    Attached Images Attached Images   

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I don't really follow the logic. The service they are buying is evaluating their car and adjusting their mapping as needed to maximize their performance, safety, and/or whatever other various tuning objectives they have. No two cars are going to be alike, right? I would only see a locked map scenario if you are just giving each customer the same basic map with only minor tweaks and didn't want them to compare notes. Once you get the mapping close they should be able to make minor tweaks on their own if they want/need. Just my opinion.
    I know what you mean. Look at it this way, people come to us to get a tune and forget about their own "tweaking" and what not. Vast majority of the people want simply a consistent fast car and don't actually care even the last bit about logging. We work with them until its up to their expectations and work with them at any time to have the map adjusted if/when required. They don't need to worry about tweaks. e-tuning always starts with a base/starter map for a given octane and each map is done by following the same tuning principles but end results are never the same when it comes to actual table values and what we do in each tune. Things like different wastegate setups, fuel, timing, vanos, throttle mapping are all adjusted to suit a given car its conditions, octane and modifications. As part of the process we have also many times assisted them in advice in fixing the issues on their cars just like we do on the forums when/where we can.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    On the JB4 end it's a little different as the firmware and the mapping are combined in to one file. We can't easily separate the two. The Haltech/procede model might be a better example. The firmware is locked meaning you can't make your own haltech box and flash it. But the tuning maps are open to the end user for adjustment.
    Maybe that's where the problem/limitation is on the JB4. It'd be beneficial to separate them and make the architecture of the thing more modular so that end users can actually adjust the JB4 boost controller setup to their liking. In a stacked approach JB4 is just doing boost control as you zero out the fuel and CPS settings. Given the tuning aspect of it centers around boost control (given that is its largest selling point) why not refactor a couple things and expose an advanced settings tab in the user software for those ready/willing to calibrate their boost control better and potentially fix issues such as bogging on the 6MTs?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Looks good, nice control. I like throwing a couple steps in when logging… really shows any weaknesses at part throttle, which plays into drivability.

    Overall I think I was fairly successful tuning with ATR, but stacked just offers a little better control for me and I suspect this is true for most… thus the request to view some PTF stepped logs… I know Terry can dial it in. If I saw similar control with Cobb then I would consider attempting again myself (or potentially purchasing) a strong unstacked tune as comparison/curiosity. But I’m skeptical in part throttle boost control and torque interventions.

    I still get some torque intervention, like in one of the logs below and I think this can be tuned out (or limited by increasing torque limits)… but I kinda stopped refining and just enjoying now. The little bit that does interfere is not really noticeable.
    Josh, no need to worry. Given your nature we simply wouldn't be interested in offering any of our services for your car but maybe another experienced tuner can help you?

    I see you're enjoying your car on stock turbos and "12" psi. I thought you said you were more adventurous and went for 15 recently? That's disappointing man Click here to enlarge

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