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  1. #51
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    I agree. The price matters very little at this time. Just put them out, if they cost 2k, yeah, way more than i'll buy, but someone will and its a supply demand situation just like everything else. If they aren't happy with their sales at their price point, I'm sure they will adjust it. Can't complain about the price of a product too much that is first to market with a small volume forecast. If they are truly over priced, someone will come along, improve the design by making it a little more smooth or aggressive and drop the price a bit. Thats how it works. If you come out bottom dollar, its actually a hindrance to competition and competition is good for us consumers. Should be happy there is a highly priced option in the market as it results in a trickle down of different options, prices and creates a wider audience in the long run.
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  2. #52
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    @m54b25

    What is an estimated price? Please send me more info via PM




  3. #53
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    If they are truly over priced, someone will come along, improve the design by making it a little more smooth or aggressive and drop the price a bit. Thats how it works.
    That is exactly how it works.

  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    My opinion is that they are worth whatever the market pays for them.
    Well the market won't be paying more than $1000 for them (individual buyers might though -- the same types that buy Dinan stroker kits for the S65 LOL), because they could probably go to Brian Crower and get a custom grind done for less.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    That is exactly how it works.
    Mostly, but also it can deflate the perceived demand thereby increasing perceived risk.

  5. #55
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    Well the market won't be paying more than $1000 for them
    Does for Schrick cams so not sure what you are basing this on. Clearly not precedent.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    Mostly, but also it can deflate the perceived demand thereby increasing perceived risk.
    Um, no.

    If these work well and provide solid gains they will sell themselves. A lot of you are overly negative critical when official details aren't even released yet. I'm glad I'm not a tuner as the forums would frustrate me.

  6. #56
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Does for Schrick cams so not sure what you are basing this on. Clearly not precedent.
    N54 owners pay for Schrick cams? Please show me. I've yet to see a single dyno with aftermarket valvetrain work on the N54 (DZenno's kickass foray into head-land notwithstanding).




    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Um, no.
    Um yes, if no one buys a part because it is overpriced, it CAN deflate the perceived demand. Company X looking for aftermarket opportunities sees no one buying these cams and don't run a legit study to figure out why; it appears on the surface that there's no market for cams on this platform which increases the perceived risk. That's just basic econ man.

    Many companies, like Vargas, actually research the platform and find the correct answer may not always be the obvious one. (like HPF ignorantly assuming the N54's ECU and control system worked just like the E46 and disregarding all warnings to the contrary; not that there's something magic about the platform).

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    If these work well and provide solid gains they will sell themselves. A lot of you are overly negative critical when official details aren't even released yet. I'm glad I'm not a tuner as the forums would frustrate me.
    I'm not being overly negative or critical. I'm just stating the facts. I really hope the cams are priced in the right range and make substantial power gains (and from early info, they did make good power, 15-20% is pretty impressive)

  7. #57
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    N54 owners pay for Schrick cams? Please show me. I've yet to see a single dyno with aftermarket valvetrain work on the N54 (DZenno's kickass foray into head-land notwithstanding).
    I can't do anything about guys who get dynos or not but the point is check Schrick pricing and get back to me.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    Um yes, if no one buys a part because it is overpriced, it CAN deflate the perceived demand. Company X looking for aftermarket opportunities sees no one buying these cams and don't run a legit study to figure out why; it appears on the surface that there's no market for cams on this platform which increases the perceived risk. That's just basic econ man.
    Ok your theoretical speculation on paper which is not based on anything and speaking on behalf of all N54 owners is cool and all but why don't you just let Renntech do their thing and wait for details before raining on anyone's parade?

    It appears there is no market to you based on, um, what? Clearly Renntech has more experience with cams on this motor and is looking at the cams again exactly as stated so THEY see something. Additionally, if you look at the N54 torque curve it certainly seems the stock cam profile is not designed for max peak power or with aftermarket turbos in mind.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    I'm not being overly negative or critical. I'm just stating the facts.
    I've yet to see a fact I see subjective speculation.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    I really hope the cams are priced in the right range
    The right range is not what forum posters want them priced at to meet THEIR finances.

  8. #58
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    What is the labor to get these in and out of the engine? 8 hours if you know what you are doing?

    Cams + Headwork + Install = price of stage 3s no?

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    if its just the cams and not a head removal 8 hours sounds about right. If you are removing the head as well, it would be considerably more because youd have to remove or at least dislodge the turbos.
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    If you really want a product, don't talk down the price before it's released or much is even know about it. Let the vendor put it out there, then beat them up. That's the smarter move. If you talk it down before it's even on their priority list, all you're going to do is push it DOWN the priority list. That's why we've been waiting years for real turbo upgrades and other things. Between copy cats and people $#@!ing about price it's amazing some vendors have jumped in at all on this platform.

    Market forces will decide the price.

  11. #61
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    Upgraded valvetrain+head porting+ cams.... Someone should just sell a top end kit + 7700 rev limiter. I'd like to see that happen Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    If they are truly over priced, someone will come along, improve the design by making it a little more smooth or aggressive and drop the price a bit. Thats how it works. If you come out bottom dollar, its actually a hindrance to competition and competition is good for us consumers. Should be happy there is a highly priced option in the market as it results in a trickle down of different options, prices and creates a wider audience in the long run.
    Well, if we take the VAC Stage 3 head as an example, which is priced WAY high at the upper border of the price range, you get a product which has huge potential but ends up being quasi non-existent in the end user market. And yet no other company has taken advantage of this situation and developed a more reasonably priced alternative. Which is a shame.My take is that on the N54 it's just too "easy" (hp per $) to gain power by upping boost some, compared to "real" engine modifications like they're common for NA engines.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    My take is that on the N54 it's just too "easy" (hp per $) to gain power by upping boost some, compared to "real" engine modifications like they're common for NA engines.
    I noticed that really quickly after I bought my N54.
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  14. #64
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    My take is that on the N54 it's just too "easy" (hp per $) to gain power by upping boost some, compared to "real" engine modifications like they're common for NA engines.
    The OEM motor + turbos offer a LOT of room for gains by just increasing the boost, timing & fueling. We've all just been spoiled & now that it's moving onto real mods (not just basic bolt-ons), everyone in the N54 community is taken back by how much it costs to heavily mod an N54 (Vargas Turbos, Aftermarket Cylinder Heads, Cams, Pistons, Rods, etc etc etc).
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  15. #65
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BavarianBullet Click here to enlarge
    If you really want a product, don't talk down the price before it's released or much is even know about it. Let the vendor put it out there, then beat them up. That's the smarter move. If you talk it down before it's even on their priority list, all you're going to do is push it DOWN the priority list. That's why we've been waiting years for real turbo upgrades and other things. Between copy cats and people $#@!ing about price it's amazing some vendors have jumped in at all on this platform.

    Market forces will decide the price.
    'Market forces' also can kill an aftermarket too. Click here to enlarge And I've not seen a single person putting the product down. But I agree with what you're saying.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I can't do anything about guys who get dynos or not but the point is check Schrick pricing and get back to me.
    This is case in point to what I was talking about, even though that's a bit unfair on my part. But the core of it is what I'm saying. Click here to enlarge


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    ...but why don't you just let Renntech do their thing and wait for details before raining on anyone's parade?
    I'm not raining on anyone's parade. My tone isn't intended to be negative, it's a fact-based discussion about cams and the N54.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It appears there is no market to you based on, um, what?
    That's not what I said. At all. Please re-read.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Clearly Renntech has more experience with cams on this motor and is looking at the cams again exactly as stated so THEY see something. Additionally, if you look at the N54 torque curve it certainly seems the stock cam profile is not designed for max peak power or with aftermarket turbos in mind.
    True, they are looking, and that's awesome. I qualified my statements and made it plainly obvious; I rarely speak in absolutes. Though I disagree on the N54 torque curve issue. The torque curve is more indicative of small turbine housings and poor exhaust-wheel flow, notice how Shiv's dynos don't show a torque band drop like that and how RBs extend the curve out a lot further (we'll see when the Vargas Stg3s pop up). Sure there will be gains on the cams (15-20% is pretty awesome), but I don't think we'll see a choke point for a while.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I've yet to see a fact I see subjective speculation.
    I've been very objective actually. Doing technology trade studies and R&D programs is part of my job. I know how companies view markets, and those with steep initial investment requirements (like custom cam design) have tighter reins (generally speaking) regarding risk assessment.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The right range is not what forum posters want them priced at to meet THEIR finances.
    Agreed. It's what buyers will pay for it, which generally is reflected by forum posters (since they are also buyers), but definitely not always 1:1 like that, you're right.

  16. #66
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    The OEM motor + turbos offer a LOT of room for gains by just increasing the boost, timing & fueling. We've all just been spoiled & now that it's moving onto real mods (not just basic bolt-ons), everyone in the N54 community is taken back by how much it costs to heavily mod an N54 (Vargas Turbos, Aftermarket Cylinder Heads, Cams, Pistons, Rods, etc etc etc).
    Considering the amount of work that Vargas put into his turbos and knowledge of how much more expensive a proper TT build is than a single build; no one has any room to complain about them. I don't think pricing is released yet, but Tony is definitely not slapping a BMW tax on his product (and neither did Rob).

    And since Shiv can't seem to get a reliable single setup out there, we don't know exactly where the choke point for headflow is going to be. We're definitely not there yet, though. Not to say that cam/headwork won't do great things, but it's not holding the platform back, say like HPFPs Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    I'm not raining on anyone's parade. My tone isn't intended to be negative, it's a fact-based discussion about cams and the N54.
    Then I wonder why it seems negative. Probably because you are being critical without even having any official to work with. It certainly doesn't sound positive.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    That's not what I said. At all. Please re-read.
    You said it appears on the surface there is no market for cams on this motor? What am I missing?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    Though I disagree on the N54 torque curve issue. The torque curve is more indicative of small turbine housings and poor exhaust-wheel flow,
    No, it's also the cam profile and fairly poor heads.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    notice how Shiv's dynos don't show a torque band drop like that
    Because the single shifts the powerband to the right. That doesn't mean he won't experience the same torque drop just that the rpm that it will happen at has changed. It's not like he couldn't get gains with a specific cam profile to that turbo setup.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    I've been very objective actually. Doing technology trade studies and R&D programs is part of my job. I know how companies view markets, and those with steep initial investment requirements (like custom cam design) have tighter reins (generally speaking) regarding risk assessment.
    It doesn't matter what your job is what facts have you stated?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    buyers will pay for it, which generally is reflected by forum posters (since they are also buyers), but definitely not always 1:1 like that, you're right.
    I don't think one forum poster speaks for the potential market or pricing as a whole. You may feel one way and that's fine but that doesn't mean it is how everyone feels. My feeling is if a product is tested, shows solid gains, and is something that would be of benefit then I'll consider if that is worth the asking price. I have a feeling it would be.

  18. #68
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    everyone in the N54 community is taken back by how much it costs to heavily mod an N54
    I'm not surprised.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I'm not surprised.
    Neither am I. I just think it's way to early in the N54's aftermarket development to get excited about cams. To parallel, the S54 has gone from basic stock motor turbo kits to heavily built, fully forged motors and are now JUST starting to investigate turbo cams for it now. The N54 really needs to get over its fueling system short comings (in addition to high power DI tuning), investigate a higher flow intake manifold with better TB placement and preparing for built motors & determining what's the best CR for turbo upgrades like the Vargas Stage 3s or a proper Single Turbo.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    N52 top end is a bit different with Valvetronic.
    the flow forming is for weight, rather than power production?, much less weight in them when they're entirely hollow by filling tubes with high pressure water?

    it's not like they're a component which sees incredible stress levels, as long as they're balanced and light weight?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    If it does cause some rough idle the VANOS tables can always be tweaked to help smooth is out... of course, some people like a rough idle Click here to enlarge

    In all reality these things shouldn't cost more than about $450 a piece.
    $450 per camshaft? $900/pair? that'd be upper mid priced but still very reasonable... i'm used to seeing $500 for a PAIR of honda cams.. or $600 for a pair of evo cams ETC.

    i'd prefer a smoother idle, car's going to be unpleasant as is haah

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Oh BMW owners and their thoughts on what aftermarket products should cost are always amusing.

    We have, oh, how many cam options on the market versus an LSX or Mustang V8?
    yeah but V8's have a slight bump requiring 4 cams rather than two, and even at $450-$500, they're approaching upper end of pricing

    I'd think $1000-$1500 is still 'reasonable' considering the market, and that's the price of other BMW cams..?

    as much as a $1000 price tag would be a no-thought purchase.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It's an engine and not made out of special Ultimate Driving Machine pixie dust but they are WAY more complex to tune and build than other motors due to how they are engineered and the electronics. Ask me how I know.
    genuinely curious, how is it more complex than VVTI, which is noted to be VERY simlar to vanos? and entirely tuneable

    or mitsubishi's mivec (which is also continuously variable valve timing), seen on the 4b11 and IX 4G63 and entirely tune-able?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Why is tuning and building parts for these motors always so much easier in text on forums than in practice? We have geniuses here who should be running big BMW tuning companies.
    I would if i had the machinery, time.... and most of all, didn't need a day job haha

    it's a dream of myself and one of my mech engineer friends.. not necessarily specifically BMW though, but .. well, i own one >_>

    if i win lottery, if i win lottery Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    Upgraded valvetrain+head porting+ cams.... Someone should just sell a top end kit + 7700 rev limiter. I'd like to see that happen Click here to enlarge
    well for starters a VAC stage III is $2500 for what realistically is a basic port+polish+multi angle/unshroud and cleanup with a whole bunch of other bullet point fluff

    you could go to your local machine shop that spends it's time building high-spec race engines and get the same for half that price.. and spend the remaining $1000-$1500 making that up in springs, valves, retainers etc. to safely handle the increase. - custom valves should run you $50,75-100+ depending on the material, and there's 24 of them... titanium valves for a GT-R run $100 a piece, and of course you can go up to $125-$150+ lol i'd say $1500-$2k for decent upgrades to all the components (not going top-shelf) would be a fair price, so $3500 or something - it's going to be an INCREDIBLY long time until off the shelf valves/springs etc. are available

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    Well, if we take the VAC Stage 3 head as an example, which is priced WAY high at the upper border of the price range, you get a product which has huge potential but ends up being quasi non-existent in the end user market. And yet no other company has taken advantage of this situation and developed a more reasonably priced alternative. Which is a shame.My take is that on the N54 it's just too "easy" (hp per $) to gain power by upping boost some, compared to "real" engine modifications like they're common for NA engines.
    yeah that's because you can get the SAME JOB custom from a machine shop for half the price VAC asks. Cams are one thing, that's custom, new, uncharted territory.. head work in this case, is simply head work.

    I don't see why anyone would offer an off the shelf/ship-it-to-you pre-worked head for such high money when it won't be any cheaper (in fact likely more expensive) than a custom job with MORE STUFF from a reputable machine shop...

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Neither am I. I just think it's way to early in the N54's aftermarket development to get excited about cams. To parallel, the S54 has gone from basic stock motor turbo kits to heavily built, fully forged motors and are now JUST starting to investigate turbo cams for it now. The N54 really needs to get over its fueling system short comings (in addition to high power DI tuning), investigate a higher flow intake manifold with better TB placement and preparing for built motors & determining what's the best CR for turbo upgrades like the Vargas Stage 3s or a proper Single Turbo.
    i don't think there's ever a 'too soon' for a shop to make a product... filling a gap in the market that doesn't even exist is just investing for the future imo.. yes it's not what should be the priority, but it's still forward motion giving people who want to upgrade this component the option to Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    Touche.
    However, my opinion still is that if these cams ever come to market and it's more than $1K for a pair it's too much.
    I agree, a cam, is a cam, is a cam. Besides, once they come and are shown to make power, they can be copied for very cheap. Even more incentive to keep prices low because there isn't much incentive for someone to undercut you.
    Change is constant

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    Only posting because I just watched it last night:

    Copies are cheap to make. Cam development is fast on most other platforms...

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