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View Poll Results: Your preferred Methanol Injection Kit

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  • CoolingMist

    3 5.00%
  • Aquamist

    31 51.67%
  • BMS Kit(s)

    22 36.67%
  • Other (Please mention which one)

    4 6.67%
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  1. #1
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    Exclamation Methanol Injection Coolingmist vs Aquamist vs BMS

    As title states... what are the pros and cons of each kit?

    I've been doing some research lately, and it appears that most agree that Aquamist is very good but extremely expensive.

    After talking to a Rep over on E90 he mentioned that Aquamist has no Failsafe when used with Cobb. "Cobb doesn't dynamically adjust boost in response to Meth Flow".

    He suggested using a Meth kit alongside JB4 and an FSB. Is this method reliable at sensing meth flow problems? If it can sense pump issues , can it also sense when meth is flowing through turbine but NOT making it to the engine?

    Excuse the questions, this is my first time with Meth and I need to make an informed choice.
    So choices are:
    • Coolingmist with progressive controller and FSB (BEST with Jb4).
    • Aquamist with Cobb (which I already have)
    • BMS Kit with JB4 / FSB failsafe (?)

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    Who told you aquamist doesn't have a failsafe with cobb? They're wrong.

    I have owned the Devils Own WW kit,

    and currently have the Aquamist HFS4, which (from my knowledge) is the only meth system that DOES have a failsafe and works great with Cobb.
    Last edited by Legionofboom; 03-07-2013 at 08:30 PM.




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    I dont understand people who say flash tunes can't be failsafed. Its easier and more elegant on a piggy setup, but its nothing a flow sensor and boost bypass solenoid cant fix for the flash-only guys.

    JB4/procede if you have a meth failure it cuts boost. On a flash if meth fails the flow sensor sends a 5v trigger to the bypass solenoid and vents vacuum to atmosphere making the car limp.

    Both save your engine from a meth failure. Which approach works better? I'd go piggy personally for that, but on paper the boost bypass would work too, but you'd get a 30FF code and CEL if meth fails.

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    It all depends on the level of integration you want. There is a basic failsafe available with the Cobb tuning. You set a flow limit and time delay and if flow falls below that limit after that time delay then a solenoid opens to reduce boost. It's not an ideal setup but it's better than nothing. Just keep the tuning a bit on the conservative side with it. On the hardware the Aquamist compression fittings are second to none. I prefer the CM 2.2g tank which houses the pump inside for a simple clean footprint. The electronics will vary based on how you're doing the tuning end (flash only, vs. piggyback).

    I won't bother going in to the JB4 integrated meth pitch but I've written about it before and find it to be a superior way to manage meth tuning.

    For the JB4 I would suggest either one of our tank kits (which has many parts from CM but is not a "CM kit" per say), or if you want to spend a bit more money and time installing the Aquamist kit w/ the turbine flow sensor. Both feed flow information in to the JB4 to allow proper progressive meth tuning and safety.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 03-07-2013 at 08:36 PM.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    It all depends on the level of integration you want. There is a basic failsafe available with the Cobb tuning. You set a flow limit and time delay and if flow falls below that limit after that time delay then a solenoid opens to reduce boost. It's not an ideal setup but it's better than nothing. Just keep the tuning a bit on the conservative side with it. On the hardware the Aquamist compression fittings are second to none. I prefer the CM 2.2g tank which houses the pump inside for a simple clean footprint. The electronics will vary based on how you're doing the tuning end (flash only, vs. piggyback).

    I won't bother going in to the JB4 integrated meth pitch but I've written about it before and find it to be a superior way to manage meth tuning.
    Heh we are on the same page it seems

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    Aquamist.

    The phrase "tune integration" has been turned into a buzzword by certain tuners to give the impression that their kit is somehow magically delicious. Aquamist uses a PWM flow system(once setup no worries on "loading" up on meth) and a failsafe that dumps boost as fast as the WGs can respond. It will trigger a P30FC but that's not a huge deal.
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    Thanks Terry!

    Now when it comes to the failsafe , which is a better & more reliable option.

    The FSB failsafe or the Turbine flow sensor you'd get with the Aquamist?

    Also, are all three meth kits able to withstand high temperatures and still work effectively? I ask because I often go to Las Vegas and drive very long distances in high temps...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    Aquamist.

    The phrase "tune integration" has been turned into a buzzword by certain tuners to give the impression that their kit is somehow magically delicious. Aquamist uses a PWM flow system(once setup no worries on "loading" up on meth) and a failsafe that dumps boost as fast as the WGs can respond. It will trigger a P30FC but that's not a huge deal.
    Can you pretend I have no idea what PWM flow system is and dumb your response a tiny bit lol

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Harvey_Spector Click here to enlarge
    Can you pretend I have no idea what PWM flow system is and dumb your response a tiny bit lol
    PWM stands for Progressive water meth.

    What he's saying is that no tune is build for it, which is why you have to add a FSB (fail safe box) to them, and the cobb needs a system that dumps boost if it seems any flow issues.




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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90SoFlo Click here to enlarge
    PWM stands for Progressive water meth.

    What he's saying is that no tune is build for it, which is why you have to add a FSB (fail safe box) to them, and the cobb needs a system that dumps boost if it seems any flow issues.
    So essentially, without an FSB you risk boost not being dumped fast enough after a failure in the Methanol Injection?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Harvey_Spector Click here to enlarge
    So essentially, without an FSB you risk boost not being dumped fast enough after a failure in the Methanol Injection?
    no it shouldn't be any different. The Aquamist controller is hooked up directly to the WG controls in the DME so once it's flow falls below your set value, it will dump the boost. The FSB is also monitoring flow, and will tell the JB4 if flow goes below a set limit and the JB4 in turn will dump boost.
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    PWM is pulse width modulation. It varies meth flow based on boost or injector duty cycle. The JB4 uses a simpler on/off setup that flows a predetermined amount of flow regardless of if it's too much or not enough. Don't take this the wrong way, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the way the JB performs, it's just that AM is better.The aquamist system monitors flow and if it falls out of range it will send the signal to dump boost, nothing external required.
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    Seems there is no general consensus. Main thing is tailoring it to your particular setup.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Harvey_Spector Click here to enlarge
    The FSB failsafe or the Turbine flow sensor you'd get with the Aquamist?
    They both serve the same purpose. A meth failsafe needs to have two basic components. First a means to detect if and how much fluid is being injected in to the motor, and second a means to detect whether that fluid is sufficiently supplementing octane. So you don't want to raise boost & advance until a sufficient amount of methanol is flowing and then while the methanol is flowing you want to be sure it's enough to prevent knock for the boost and advance you are running.

    Both the FSB and AM sensor provide fluid flow information to the JB4. The JB4 then uses CANdata to determine what effect that fluid is having on the overall tuning to determine whether the meth volume and quality is sufficient. For example if the meth mixture is weak then the JB4 will lower an internal long term trim to reduce the aggressiveness of the tuning as a function of fluid flow.

    Technically speaking the AM flow sensor provides more precise information with regards to flow. For example it can tell you say +-50ml/min while the FSB is more of a +-150ml/min resolution. But my opinion has always been precise resolution of the flow is not overly relevant given the software side is evaluating what effect that fluid flow is having on the engine tuning anyway. The FSB approach has fewer parts, theoretically more reliable, easier to install, costs less, etc. I have no issue suggesting the FSB in all applications including large turbo applications. But if you are old school and want to know the exact ml/min of meth flow, spend the $175 (?) to add on the AM flow sensor. You can add it on to any kit including the BMS kits.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Harvey_Spector Click here to enlarge
    As title states... what are the pros and cons of each kit?

    I've been doing some research lately, and it appears that most agree that Aquamist is very good but extremely expensive.

    After talking to a Rep over on E90 he mentioned that Aquamist has no Failsafe when used with Cobb. "Cobb doesn't dynamically adjust boost in response to Meth Flow".

    He suggested using a Meth kit alongside JB4 and an FSB. Is this method reliable at sensing meth flow problems? If it can sense pump issues , can it also sense when meth is flowing through turbine but NOT making it to the engine?

    Excuse the questions, this is my first time with Meth and I need to make an informed choice.
    So choices are:
    • Coolingmist with progressive controller and FSB (BEST with Jb4).
    • Aquamist with Cobb (which I already have)
    • BMS Kit with JB4 / FSB failsafe (?)
    1) HFS-4 has an integrated failsafe system. The kit comes with a turbine based flow sensor that supports 100% meth. It is integrated into the HFS-4 controller to monitor and detect flow conditions. It also has a tank level sensor for low tank level that is also part of the failsafe integration. The turbine flow sensor sees actual meth flow (i.e. turbine spins when meth is flowing giving signal back to the controller indicating flow). Once the failsafe triggers it sends a ground to the OEM boost control solenoids on the car effectively closing them. This in turn causes the wastegates on the turbos to open dumping all boost from the car virtually instantly. The failsafe prevents the car from going into boost until the flow condition is fixed (e.g. fill up on meth again as tank level was low, clogged nozzle (under flow), line came off (over flow) ).

    2) Aquamist compression fittings are leak free. This is due to the way they mate with the tubing. Meth leaks at the fittings are the #1 cause for headaches people face when dealing with flow issues on kits that don't use this style of fittings. Other kits come with push-lock style fittings that have an o-ring inside which gets dirty with time making them prone to leaks and allowing air bubbles to form in the lines reducing or taking out meth flow. Personally been there for 2 years replacing fittings, tracking down air bubbles and leaks, been there done that.

    3) FSB is an electronics device that monitors current at the pump. It doesn't see actual meth flow like a turbine based flow sensor does (i.e. there's no turbine). Being external to flow it calculates flow based on pump's electric current that powers it to estimate meth flow. I don't recommend this approach even for JB4 users. It is always better to have a turbine based flow sensor in the path of flow reporting actual flow than calculating it IMHO

    4) Cobb/flash tuning doesn't dynamically adjust boost or timing in response to meth flow today. This is not a required feature to reliably run methanol on any FI car including this one regardless of the underlying tune. As @rader1 mentioned progressive boost based on meth flow is more of a buzzword really. HFS-4 will dump boost when it sees any meth flow issues (overflow, underflow, low tank level). It uses boost control solenoids that the DME also uses to control boost on this car. If we can't rely on an OEM boost control device to control/dump boost when signalled then we're screwed anyway Click here to enlarge

    5) Cobb & Aquamist HFS-4 combo has no issues supporting the most aggressive tuning possible on this car. In case of meth flow issues all boost is dumped as described earlier to prevent issues running aggressive tuning without meth.

    6) You can run an HFS-4 kit with any tune on the market today and enjoy the built in failsafety without relying on the tune itself to provide it. It is a fully standalone system. This is the case with the Coolingmist kit too.

    7) Stay away from kits that don't have any failsafes. Its playing with fire. Always and under all circumstances have some form of a failsafe. A meth kit can be as simple as a pump+nozzle+hobbs switch but you can also have your fries without ketchup and your burger without cheese Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

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    I noticed Shiv chiming in on this thread indirectly:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Shiv
    Methanol flow graph shows just how repeatable actual methanol flow is when you treat it like a fuel system (ie, constant pump pressure through a PWM injection valve). This gives us the ability to have actual methanol flow (read from an actual turbine driven flow tube) follow airflow/boost closely. This keeps fuel trims and AFR stable despite pretty abrupt changes in boost pressure at high RPM when the engine is most likely to get checked down from over-fueling and misfire. This cannot be done with a conventional meth injection systems (DO, CM, etc,.) due to the limited dynamic range associated with variable speed pumps/injection pressure.
    So Shiv is basically saying he requires extremely precise control and flow data to achieve his single turbo tuning successfully. But when you look at his data you catch a glimpse of how the tuning is actually implemented. I've attached the datalog he posted with his comment above.

    Note how methanol flow immediately jumps up to 50% and remains there. Over the course of 2 seconds from 13 to 15 in the log boost drops from 24psi? to 12psi? (the log scaling is illegible), a swing of maybe 200whp, yet methanol flow goes down from 50% to 40%. So essentially, between 12psi and 24psi there is effectively the same amount of methanol being injected. In my opinion given the AFR and timing dip post shift he should probably inject that same amount of methanol at any boost level > 12psi and simply use the fuel pressure feedback to handle his fuel trims. But at the end of the day while he talks a big game on needing this "precise" control he clearly is not even using it himself in the most extreme single turbo example posted.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I noticed Shiv chiming in on this thread indirectly:



    So Shiv is basically saying he requires extremely precise control and flow data to achieve his single turbo tuning successfully. But when you look at his data you catch a glimpse of how the tuning is actually implemented. I've attached the datalog he posted with his comment above.

    Note how methanol flow immediately jumps up to 50% and remains there. Over the course of 2 seconds from 13 to 15 in the log boost drops from 24psi? to 12psi? (the log scaling is illegible), a swing of maybe 200whp, yet methanol flow goes down from 50% to 40%. So essentially, between 12psi and 24psi there is effectively the same amount of methanol being injected. In my opinion given the AFR and timing dip post shift he should probably inject that same amount of methanol at any boost level > 12psi and simply use the fuel pressure feedback to handle his fuel trims. But at the end of the day while he talks a big game on needing this "precise" control he clearly is not even using it himself in the most extreme single turbo example posted.
    How someone uses a kit says nothing about why one kit is better or worse quality than another. This thread was about fail-safety features (or lack thereof) in the outlined kits as well as comparisons on FSB vs AM turbine flow sensor flow detection. How another tuner uses a kit to suit their goals is outside the scope of this discussion. Some use no failsafes at all and others can't stand meth to begin with.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Aquamist has the best stand alone meth kit available, coupled with a jb4 it's even better. But coupled to a jb4 it's somewhat redundant because it's effectively as safe with the Cobb alone, and I hear they are working on some kind of feedback as well to quell the theoretical benefit debate (I like the theoretical benefits of the buzzword myself). If money is no object run the Cobb, jb4 and aquamist.

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    Such precise methanol injection is so irrelevant given the wide adjustment range of fuel trims. When you can swing 34% in either direction, that leaves a HUGE margin for error. Which is why folks like me can run basic kits on this platform injecting 800cc of methanol at a low psi with no ill effects.

    There is the issue of precise methanol distribution across cylinders, but once it mixes with the charge far enough away from the throttle body your bottleneck is the intake mani, and not the meth kit.

    Aquamist is quality hardware and you are getting what you paid for. However, the inferior kits many of us have run for years also get the job done admirably.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    How someone uses a kit says nothing about why one kit is better or worse quality than another. This thread was about fail-safety features (or lack thereof) in the outlined kits as well as comparisons on FSB vs AM turbine flow sensor flow detection. How another tuner uses a kit to suit their goals is outside the scope of this discussion. Some use no failsafes at all and others can't stand meth to begin with.
    You can failsafe a basic PPS kit with virtually the same approach as the hfs4.

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    Ok I’m going to explain the 4th option... mainly cause of the other thread discussion. I'm sure no one cares though

    Procede with Aquamist hardware:
    1. Meth pump is activated by a pressure switch.
    2. Fast acting valve (25hz) is controlled by Procede based on 3D mapping of rpm, boost… DC from 0 to 100%
    3. Tuning progresses between 2 maps based on actual meth flow. Similar to JB, but with a little more resolution in ignition timing I believe.
    The negative is that it is expensive and you are kinda stuck with a Procede for control... I'm sure Terry could put together a premium option directly controlling the FAV (or solenoid for lower cost). Much better than the IDC, boost, rpm options on a dial currently available with the AM controller.

    Out of the options the flash and Aquamist has the worst failsafe. The hardware is solid, but a mechanical failsafe is not doing much for you except working as a warning that meth has stopped while DME already handled any issues. With progressive tuning, the reaction is much faster and thus more failsafier Click here to enlarge

    Here’s an example. Below notice the tuning setpoints based on meth flow. I have my meth DC set from 20 to 70 depending on rpm/boost with injection starting around 9psi. Procede will fully transition maps based on DC setpoint and flow. At 100% DC my flow is around 29, as you can see in the log at 70% DC flow is 22… sorry didn't log DC on this one. Notice ignition correction channel which is CPS offset applying retard/advance.
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    tuning war with meth kits attached lol .sure the guy is confused as hell considering he said he know nothing about meth injection .think I saw you had cobb already ? if so hfs-4 is imo the best way to go and believe me I have done a ton of homework and have ran jb with fsb also .both are good but with cobb am is the only way to go.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cwarren Click here to enlarge
    tuning war with meth kits attached lol .sure the guy is confused as hell considering he said he know nothing about meth injection .think I saw you had cobb already ? if so hfs-4 is imo the best way to go and believe me I have done a ton of homework and have ran jb with fsb also .both are good but with cobb am is the only way to go.
    Meth kits are meth kits, people have their allegiances like they do tunes.

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    Regardless of which kit you purchase, the fundamental things you want are:

    1) Trunk mounted tank
    2) Pump mounted below tank level to induce gravity feeding
    3) A failsafe
    4) Compression fittings

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    Lines:
    Quick connects- cheap, effective, can leak on occasion
    Compression fittings- more expensive, less prone to leaks

    Failsafes:
    FSB= failsafe box. Basically, an electrical measurement of pump load. Has situations where it could potentially read flow when there is none, but unlikely.
    Flow sensor= mechanical flow sensor. Accurate metering of fluid flow, drawbacks include maintenance, it could get clogged and read low flow.

    Tunes:
    Cobb utilizes mechanical failsafes that vent boost pressure and lower boost after low flow triggers are tripped, failsafe is based on the kit mostly. Drawback is after low flow is detected, the engine is exposed to the lean mix for a small amount of time. Predetination is possible, but more theoretical. It's safe.
    JB has "integrated" failsafes, which means it also lowers boost, but can also increase fuel and remove timing (with cps) before the lean mix gets there. It's also safe, but you may not realize you have a flow concern, which could be a problem.
    Procede is the same as jb for failsafes, also safe. Real advantages of integrated failsafes are mostly academic at FBO power levels on our engine. Regardless of flash/piggy and regardless of cps or not, the car can detect predetination and adjust timing cylinder by cylinder the next revolution. That is a universal failsafe, and it's amazingly effective at what it does.

    PWM = pulse width modulation, the pump is basically ran full speed, and a solenoid opened/closed to meter flow through injectors, like normal fuel injection. More precise control. On most engines a breakthrough for tuning, for ours it's meh due to closed loop fueling. More academic gains, but nice still.
    Non PWM are more on/off switches. Fwiw, a meth kit will operate at 0% or 100% almost all of the time regardless of type. And this is meth, you want as much in your engine as you can get.

    No kit can address cylinder distribution, that's based more on atomization and manifold design. Properly functioning kits on our platform don't have issues here. Good luck.

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