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  1. #51
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Now regarding the S54 vs S65. I do not believe that BMW updating the S54 would have been a smart decision. Even with the S65 people complain about it's lack of torque and low end. I do not know if updating the S54 would have been a good decision. As well all know the S54 is capable of 500+ hp in NA racing form, but is that what the M3 needs? I think so. I think you're right. I guess I just changed my own mind within this sentence. I gave it enough thought to change my mind, you're absolutely correct. I will not edit this.
    The V8 was the right move for the car. The racing V8 is awesome. BMW just went cheap on materials and parts. The S65 is better than the S54 but it isn't engineered to a higher standard.

  2. #52
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    The N54 wasn't released as an M engine & it magically didn't become an M engine when it got put in the 1M. The N54 is a very good engine, but it only becomes an S65 beater when we add a tune that basically doubles the OEM boost levels, add some safe timing and other bolt-ons (intake, aftermarket FMIC & catless DPs).

    The N54 is def a road motor, not an M motor. What I mean by that can easily be illustrated by taking an E92 M3 to a track with a 335is (both can be MT or DCT), but the M3 will smoke the 335is. Even besides factoring the M3s better drivability (suspension, LSD), the S65 is better designed for a track -- It's N/A and won't overheat after ~3 tough laps (while the N54 will) and inherently is designed as a track motor (high revving, N/A motor, being N/A there's NO lag and power input is direct). M motors, and motorsport motors in general, are all best when they can be kept N/A -- Most recent interpretations in the Z06 LS7, the E9x M3 S65, the motors in the Porsche GT3s, etc. Turbos are great for road cars, Why? A lot of them will never see the same abuse a tracked car's motor will, it greatly increases MPG (can use a smaller displacement motor to get similar power, off boost MPG, etc).
    Why don't more people get this?

    Calling the N54 a masterpiece is honestly insulting to the real BMW masterpieces.

  3. #53
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Why don't more people get this?

    Calling the N54 a masterpiece is honestly insulting to the real BMW masterpieces.
    By no means am I calling the N54 a "bad motor", but their is no chance in hell I'd consider the N54, or the S63/S63 Tu motors "M Motors". The N54 (and the S63s) are both aftermarket, high HP tuners wet dreams, turbo motors that will be able to easily crank out a bunch of additional HP by just turning up the boost. Meanwhile, all previous N/A M Motors were exactly that -- Street legal Motorsport engines that provided the driver the closest interpretation of what it'd be like to own a BMW racing car.

    Unfortunately, the combination of BMW's "Efficient Dynamics" mindset, looking to remain on top in sales & deliver a product that the high income clientele (who have no interest in the M3's heritage and what the car stands for) will buy over multiple times in a generation. But like I said, these are the people who complained about the E9x M3's "lack of low end TQ" and would rather have the power band of the N54/N55, just in a car with the "M" badging on the trunk. AND because money can influence every decision, that is now the direction that BMW is taking.
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  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    AND because money can influence every decision, that is now the decision that BMW is taking.
    This is it. Dollars rule now, the pride is gone.

  5. #55
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    As I was walking today, something occured to me. Thinking about this thread, where BMW is going, and the past. Check this out right. This may sound like complete crap but hear me out. I think right now, the current BMW's are not terrible. Could be a lot better but are not terrible. Thinking back to the E36 days, they had to live up to the hype of the E30. Did it really in the US? Did US E36 M3 really live up to its name? I mean the US S50/52 were terrible compared to the Euro E36 M3's S50/52 engine. A bored and stroke 2.8l is all it was. That got me thinking about now. Adding boost is similar to what was done to the US E36 M3. All they did was increase the bore, add some stroke, and walla, we have an M engine. Was that correct? I don't think so and in fact despise the US E36 M3 for that reason. I just believe we're living in the mid 90's and this is what the new E36 is. Remember, in the US, Chevrolet had a ZL1 packaged Camaro, funny, the Mustang Cobra R released in 1995, the big 3 Japanese had their best during this period. It's seeming to me like a complete repeat of the E36 days. Maybe we will have another E46 M3 after this slump. Who knows, but I do know that until that time comes. Until BMW starts to build, I'm not going to wait. I am going to just continue loving my E46 M3 and look forward to purchasing the next best M.

    I will agree to say that BMW is focusing on sales and that money is what is driving BMW. However, the cars to me at least, are still pretty damn good. For years BMW's cooling systems have lacked, their electronics are too complicated, and weight has increased. Hopefully I am correct when I say, soon the weight will begin to decrease. Let's hope. I'm not ready to move up to Porsche yet. GT3's are still unaffordable for me at the moment so I am left with this.

    I do wish that BMW would allow M Division to build what they want specifically for their target audience as opposed to having big brother BMW over their shoulder every time they build something.
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  6. #56
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    I think right now, the current BMW's are not terrible. Could be a lot better but are not terrible.
    This is the point. Are the cars junk? No, but not up to classic standards that they themselves set.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Did it really in the US? Did US E36 M3 really live up to its name? I mean the US S50/52 were terrible compared to the Euro E36 M3's S50/52 engine.
    Not terrible, just weaker. In the US S52 defense it turned out to be a strong forced induction platform with many more options for supercharging and turbocharging thanks to not having the ITB's.

    It was still an awesome car.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    All they did was increase the bore, add some stroke, and walla, we have an M engine. Was that correct?
    It's more than just adding boost right? It's actual physical engine part changes.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    However, the cars to me at least, are still pretty damn good.
    They are good cars. They just don't stir the soul any longer. So they no longer have my interest.

  7. #57
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    BMW is changing it's focus. That's the bottom line. And instead of focusing on building quality, phenomenal well built German automobiles that are focused on the driver experience, they're starting to focus on overall sales, profits & market share. While BMW is going in this direction, Mercedes Benz (and Audi to a lesser extent) have started to play BMW's game and focus on making significantly better driver's cars (specifically in the AMG & S/RS Branches of each respective brand).

    I don't care about BMW's history and the "dark times" it went through with the differences between the European & US markets, we're in 2013. There is no reason why BMW should fail to deliver what we've come to expect from them: M cars that absolute dominate their market niche (the 3, 5 + 6 series), providing the ultimate driver's experience.


    While the next gen M3 be a very good driver's car? Yes. Will it be a true representation of what an M3 "is" & live up to the heritage of the badge? Absolutely not.
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  8. #58
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    This is the point. Are the cars junk? No, but not up to classic standards that they themselves set.



    Not terrible, just weaker. In the US S52 defense it turned out to be a strong forced induction platform with many more options for supercharging and turbocharging thanks to not having the ITB's.

    It was still an awesome car.



    It's more than just adding boost right? It's actual physical engine part changes.



    They are good cars. They just don't stir the soul any longer. So they no longer have my interest.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    BMW is changing it's focus. That's the bottom line. And instead of focusing on building quality, phenomenal well built German automobiles that are focused on the driver experience, they're starting to focus on overall sales, profits & market share. While BMW is going in this direction, Mercedes Benz (and Audi to a lesser extent) have started to play BMW's game and focus on making significantly better driver's cars (specifically in the AMG & S/RS Branches of each respective brand).

    I don't care about BMW's history and the "dark times" it went through with the differences between the European & US markets, we're in 2013. There is no reason why BMW should fail to deliver what we've come to expect from them: M cars that absolute dominate their market niche (the 3, 5 + 6 series), providing the ultimate driver's experience.


    While the next gen M3 be a very good driver's car? Yes. Will it be a true representation of what an M3 "is" & live up to the heritage of the badge? Absolutely not.
    Mind you, this first portion is all subjective. I agree with what you both are saying. However, to me, BMW is still leagues ahead of them both. Yes Mercedes produces a great 6.2 liter engine and Audi produces a mediocre 4.2. However, the Audi's after years and years of working their Quattro systems still have not discovered a fix for their understeer. Every Audi, every magazine article, every review you read about will mention their tendency to understeer. From every Audi A model to their highest RS model with the exception of the R8. If Audi actually pushed their engine behind the front axles, I would be more intrigued to purchase an Audi. This is not the case.

    When it comes to Mercedes, I do not see a beautiful machine. Never have and probably never will. Once again this is all opinionated and subjective, but, I do not see a reason for their hype. Are the BS cars fast in a straight line? Yes, around corners? Yes. Does that come at a high cost? Yes. However, they are not appealing to me. The side profile is of a Honda Accord and power does not do it for me. I would much rather save $30-40k and buy a used 997 GT3 as they are currently in the $60-70k range. The BS cars to me are just hopped up German muscle cars whereas BMW's such as the Lime Rock Edition M3 are what I am looking for in a car. It has taken me a while to figure out what I specifically need in a car. It must be comfortable, somewhat lightweight (max cap of 37-3800 lbs) and must be something built in low numbers so I can truly appreciate it. Cars like the M3 LRE, 1M, E46 M3 ZCP, 911 GT3, GT3RS, and quite a few others, are the cars that appeal to me the most. I feel as though, I'm not old enough (25) to appreciate the Mercedes in its entirity. I see Mercedes as just a more luxurious and expensive Camaro SS or GT500.

    Moving on, while searching for my next car which I plan to purchase in the next 10 years or so, I was doing research on BMW. Trying to see if maybe I can see what their next step in design, chassis, and overall construction will be. I started with a specific name. A name that every BMW enthusiast hates. A name that no BMW enthusiast wants any part of. Chris Bangle. I wanted to see what his envision was when he set out to recreate BMW. I learned quite a lot in doing this research. Please do not let ADD kick in as I know a lot of you will find this information rather dry and boring.

    Before I begin this long hopefully informational post let me explain why I started with Chris. My favorite BMW's are from 2001-2006. The best selling 3 series of all time up to 2007 was the E46. As a matter of fact, if it wasn't for BMW's push for an increase in production to increase sales, the E46 would still more than likely be the best selling 3 series model ever. But, this never happened and the E92 quickly swept the E46 off its feet. Anyway, the E46 is beautiful, elegant, and has a very German and proper BMW build. No one will attest to that. No one. The E46 is seriously one of the best looking BMW's ever.

    A man by the name of Eric Goplen designed the E46 and his goal was to maintain what BMW stood for. He set out to be consistent with the dual front grills, twin headlamps, and gorgeous styling similar to the E30 and E36 predecessor. He does his work, or did until 2008, for BMW Design USA. This is where he saw the E46 take shape. The E46 has very classical lines which in some angles resemble the 2002 in a way. These same lines that we enthusiast see as beauty in the beast, are the curves which we have all grown and love as like I said, resemble the BMW classics.


    Insert Chris Bangle. Chris Bangle's approach, was to attempt to"recreate" the BMW dream. I see Chris Bangle being the sole reason why BMW has been failing since 2006. Check this out. This is a direct quote on the official BMW design site.

    "Bangle liked to provoke customer with unconventional styling: cars from that era often looked cheaper than their actual price tag, they stunned with novelty of detail, provocative use of new but often obviously economical materials; luxury did not interest Bangle"

    This was Bangle and BMW's first mistake. Styling wise, the cars were everything but economical and had a high quality look and feel for their respective time frames. The E46 in my honest opinion, has an extremely comforting, relaxing, and driving enthusiast inspired interior. So in terms of the E92, this is where the failure began. Chris Bangle is the one who chose to start from scratch with BMW's styling.

    This is a huge fail in my honest opinion. The ball is seemingly beginning to slow down this downward slope. With Adrian Van Hooyadonk replacing Chris Bangle, I am beginning to see his work fixing the "Bangle Butt" era. Looking at cars such as the gen 2 Z4. Look at how beautiful that car is. It really is a modern day 507 roadster. Absolutely stunning. This is what defines BMW as a manufacturer. This is why I see Mercedes and Audi not being on the same level as BMW even now. Audi's are beautiful. I will agree on that. The new RS5 had me jumping out of my seat. But is it really all that great? No, because when I would want to enthusiastically drive it, I would be forced to deal with the understeer. That's something I have never felt in any car I have owned. It would definitely make me reconsider.

    Now, with all this design talk, where does that put us? Well, this leaves us at M Division. We all know that BMW's design studio builds a concept, then builds a production concept, then builds the real thing, and then they hand over a production model to M Division. M Division has to work with what they are given. Now, I love M cars just as much as the next guy but if you're handed a $#@!ty product to work with; can you really polish a turd?

    Chris Harris said in the video I posted earlier this week "engines do not make M cars special, infact it's the chassis that makes an M car special". The best chassis are not necessarily the lightest but yet the ones that can take the car to the next level. Insert GTR or for instance, the E92 M3 has handling capabilities out of the factory far beyond any M3 prior to it. The 1M Coupe has been a hate it or love it M car and has an incredibly capable chassis. They may not be completely aluminum or lightweight anymore but M Division is doing what they can with what they have. It really begins to make sense as to what is going on over there in Munich.

    To end this long drawn out rather boring speech, M Division is doing what they can with what they have. As I said earlier, BMW is focusing more so on sales as their design changes surely do prove this fact; with Adrian van Hooydonk at the head of the table, I am certain things are about to change for the better. He is the mastermind behind the elegant gen 2 Z4. As beautiful as that car is, I plan to see a lot more beautiful BMW's to come.

    This link provided has all the information on all BMW designers to date. From the originals all the way up to the E92 series BMW's. There's a lot of information on what the desingers were trying to do with the next model and definitely shows how Chris Bangle, $#@!ed BMW for the next few years possibly decades.

    http://bmwism.com/bmws_designers.htm

    Even more drawn out over enthusiastically, here is what I want. I want the window switch moved back to the center console, M cars to go back to a traditional all aluminum chassis, and naturally aspirated 100hp/liter M cars. That's what I want back. Until then, I want a GT3 or 911 GT2. But of course, I cannot afford either so I will wait to see what happens in the near future.
    Last edited by Steve B. CBR; 03-12-2013 at 07:45 AM.
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  9. #59
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    However, to me, BMW is still leagues ahead of them both.
    How so? Mercedes especially is killing BMW in the enthusiast segment.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Are the BS cars fast in a straight line? Yes, around corners? Yes. Does that come at a high cost? Yes. However, they are not appealing to me. The side profile is of a Honda Accord and power does not do it for me.
    SLS AMG Black Series and Honda Accord... twins. Your point is based on looks when they have how many different Black Series cars? The Accord comment makes absolutely no sense.

    Yep, Mercedes offers higher end enthusiast cars. BMW... doesn't.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    I see Mercedes as just a more luxurious and expensive Camaro SS or GT500.
    This doesn't make any sense.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    A name that no BMW enthusiast wants any part of. Chris Bangle.
    I don't mind Bangle all that much. He was involved with the E46 which IMO is the most beautiful 3-Series of all time.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Chris Harris said in the video I posted earlier this week "engines do not make M cars special, infact it's the chassis that makes an M car special".
    Well Chris Harris is an idiot as an M car is about the whole package including the motor hence the special "S" designation for M motors. There is only 1 M car which does not have a real M motor and therefore is not a real M car. Coincidentally it is a car Harris likes.

  10. #60
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    How so? Mercedes especially is killing BMW in the enthusiast segment.



    SLS AMG Black Series and Honda Accord... twins. Your point is based on looks when they have how many different Black Series cars? The Accord comment makes absolutely no sense.

    Yep, Mercedes offers higher end enthusiast cars. BMW... doesn't.



    This doesn't make any sense.



    I don't mind Bangle all that much. He was involved with the E46 which IMO is the most beautiful 3-Series of all time.



    Well Chris Harris is an idiot as an M car is about the whole package including the motor hence the special "S" designation for M motors. There is only 1 M car which does not have a real M motor and therefore is not a real M car. Coincidentally it is a car Harris likes.
    http://cache.gawker.com/assets/image...2/original.gif

    I wasn't talking about the SLS AMG and Accord Coupe looking a like. See the link above. Change your mind yet? Google Accord and C63 Coupe. Plenty of images comparing the two side by side. I'm at work so I cannot pull up the pictures I really want to. Also, there's only 2 BS cars currently manufactured. 3 total unless I missed one. The CLK, C, and SLS?

    I am sure I sound like a youtube racer or even a mag lover but I can't show you videos of me driving these cars. Let's bring ourselves back down to Earth here Sticky. I can't afford the SLS and never care if I am ever able to so that car will be removed from my brain indefinitely. That car has huge shoes to fill as the original 300SLR was a dominant force. BMW has never created an expensive supercar so why start now? Mind you the price for a SLS is outrageous and it's in territory no BMW has ever been in before. Once again, why start now?

    You own a great BMW. Why do you not see this? Your BMW is leagues ahead of the AMG. What seriously makes the AMG so much better? Watch this video. Gives a great example of the GT3 RS, Mercedes C63, and M3 GTS. All in the same price range. Because it makes more power? How old is the E92 now compared to the C63 BS? For a car that costs nearly double you really think it's that much better? Your car may not be faster with a tune or with full bolt ons vs one equally equipped, but it sure as hell will do a fine job.



    What makes the AMG so much better? Have you ever driven the AMG? Please explain to me because I do not see it. I do not see a special car not even one bit. In case you miss it, Chris Harris owns the GT3 in this video.
    Last edited by Steve B. CBR; 03-12-2013 at 08:05 AM.
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  11. #61
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    I wasn't talking about the SLS AMG and Accord Coupe looking a like. See the link above. Change your mind yet? Google Accord and C63 Coupe.
    Have you seen a C63 Black Series in person?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    I can't afford the SLS and never care if I am ever able to so that car will be removed from my brain indefinitely.
    So what if you can't afford it? Mercedes-Benz AMG still makes it while BMW makes... um, nothing equivalent.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    You own a great BMW. Why do you not see this? Your BMW is leagues ahead of the AMG. What seriously makes the AMG so much better?
    I own the last great M car but it's not as good as I expected it would be. It still let's me down in several areas but it is a better drivers car than the C63 AMG that is for sure.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    What makes the AMG so much better? Have you ever driven the AMG? Please explain to me because I do not see it. I do not see a special car not even one bit. In case you miss it, Chris Harris owns the GT3 in this video.
    I really have little respect for Chris Harris so what he thinks is irrelevant to me.

    What makes AMG so much better? They have embraced the enthusiast role to an ever higher degree whereas BMW has pushed away from it for cheap models and sales. That's pretty much what it boils down to.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Have you seen a C63 Black Series in person?



    So what if you can't afford it? Mercedes-Benz AMG still makes it while BMW makes... um, nothing equivalent.



    I own the last great M car but it's not as good as I expected it would be. It still let's me down in several areas but it is a better drivers car than the C63 AMG that is for sure.



    I really have little respect for Chris Harris so what he thinks is irrelevant to me.

    What makes AMG so much better? They have embraced the enthusiast role to an ever higher degree whereas BMW has pushed away from it for cheap models and sales. That's pretty much what it boils down to.
    Why does BMW need to make a SLS fighter? As I said, BMW has never made a supercar. Their closest was the M1 which in all honesty, failed. I am sure BMW is more than capable of building a true SLS fighter but why?

    How has the E92 let you down? Please explain. In what areas does the C63 excel? For this case, let's consider the standard C63 as it's more of a competitor to the E92 because of the price difference. A second hand clean E92 sells for $40-50k. Even a BS CLK is still in the $75-90k range. Let's keep price point in our minds here. My next car as I said will be in the $60-70k range so I am open to all criticism from owners with good experience. I am seriously considering the E92 M3 for my next car along with the 1M, 911 GT3, 997 Turbo, and some others. None of which I have actually driven. For me, the C63 is not a true drivers car. The biggest selling point for the C63 is the 6.2l engine and realistically the fact that the large barge does pretty well on a road course. Other than that, when you look at the over $100k price tag, and other market options; there's so much more that can be had for either cheaper or for the same price. This logic is what brought me to purchase my E46 M3. I could have purchased a much quicker C6 Corvette, but the cheaper interior, the complete lack of comfortable seats, and the harshness (coming from an ex 350Z/370Z owner), is what completely turns me off. I've driven a 06 C6 Z06 and was not impressed to say the least. Power is definitely not all that I care about. My biggest concerns are heritage, aesthetics, and that smile you get when you go WOT long after the first time.

    Sadly, no I have not seen a C63 BS. Too much moving around from country to country to catch one out in the wild.
    Last edited by Steve B. CBR; 03-12-2013 at 09:11 AM.
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  13. #63
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Why does BMW need to make a SLS fighter? As I said, BMW has never made a supercar. Their closest was the M1 which in all honesty, failed. I am sure BMW is more than capable of building a true SLS fighter but why?
    How about BMW just makes something that is a real drivers car on a higher level? Anything? They are having record sales and record profits. What is it going to take to get a real drivers car from the maker of the Ultimate Driving Machine? The fact they are racing a Z4 M but not selling one is a joke in of itself.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    How has the E92 let you down? Please explain. In what areas does the C63 excel? For this case, let's consider the standard C63 as it's more of a competitor to the E92 because of the price difference. A second hand clean E92 sells for $40-50k. Even a BS CLK is still in the $75-90k range. Let's keep price point in our minds here.
    What is the GTS priced at? The E92 M3 is superior as a drivers car to the C63 AMG. The E92 M3 has let me down in several areas namely in the quality of materials used. Lack of dry sump also sucks for a "track day" car supposedly. It's just turned into more of a GT.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Sadly, no I have not seen a C63 BS. Too much moving around from country to country to catch one out in the wild.
    Well you won't confuse it for an accord:

    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Why does BMW need to make a SLS fighter? As I said, BMW has never made a supercar. Their closest was the M1 which in all honesty, failed. I am sure BMW is more than capable of building a true SLS fighter but why?
    I can no longer take anything you say as credible or thought out? In what way did the M1 fail?? Not only is it one of the rarest BMW's you could own, but it is everything that BMW's M Division became: The M1 gave birth to the M Division, made a market niche in BMW that never had existed prior to it's development. From the M1 directly came the E28 M5 (the original M5, which had the same M88 motor as the M1) and the E30 M3, both which started production in 1985 (~4 yrs after the M1 ended production and BMW identified the market potential for making road going race cars).

    The GT cars that BMW is currently releasing, THOSE are failures. The M1 was an absolute success, giving birth to the Division that created some of the best going road cars over 40+ yrs). Personally, I would much rather see a new gen M1 (to directly compete with the R8, and maybe even get Lamborghini Gallardo, Porsche Turbo, Ferrari 458 & Mercedes SLS buyers something to reconsider). BUT it would need to be a TRUE M motor -- A high revving, naturally aspirated V8/V10/V12 (OMG) motor that creates ~100 HP/L of displacement, mated to a 6-speed and DCT. Combined with an incredible chassis that can provide comfort when driven on public roads, but can also tear up a road course. The M Division needs a flagship that it can call it's own, and while I agree that the M Division doesn't need to make an M_ to compete with every AMG/S/RS model made (perfect example, a 7 Series M would be an absolute waste of time, money and R&D; just as much of a waste the X5 & X6 M's already are). But an M1 would be exactly that: everything the M Division currently is, embodying everything the M Division has stood for, and everything that the M Division will be going into the future. THE END.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    I can no longer take anything you say as credible or thought out? In what way did the M1 fail?? Not only is it one of the rarest BMW's you could own, but it is everything that BMW's M Division became: The M1 gave birth to the M Division, made a market niche in BMW that never had existed prior to it's development. From the M1 directly came the E28 M5 (the original M5, which had the same M88 motor as the M1) and the E30 M3, both which started production in 1985 (~4 yrs after the M1 ended production and BMW identified the market potential for making road going race cars).

    The GT cars that BMW is currently releasing, THOSE are failures. The M1 was an absolute success, giving birth to the Division that created some of the best going road cars over 40+ yrs). Personally, I would much rather see a new gen M1 (to directly compete with the R8, and maybe even get Lamborghini Gallardo, Porsche Turbo, Ferrari 458 & Mercedes SLS buyers something to reconsider). BUT it would need to be a TRUE M motor -- A high revving, naturally aspirated V8/V10/V12 (OMG) motor that creates ~100 HP/L of displacement, mated to a 6-speed and DCT. Combined with an incredible chassis that can provide comfort when driven on public roads, but can also tear up a road course. The M Division needs a flagship that it can call it's own, and while I agree that the M Division doesn't need to make an M_ to compete with every AMG/S/RS model made (perfect example, a 7 Series M would be an absolute waste of time, money and R&D; just as much of a waste the X5 & X6 M's already are). But an M1 would be exactly that: everything the M Division currently is, embodying everything the M Division has stood for, and everything that the M Division will be going into the future. THE END.
    The M1 failed because it was a rushed product. Lamborghini was supposed to be codeveloping the planned supercar. When that fell through BMW rushed the car to M so they can begin to develop the M1. Ask any real M enthusiast what the M1 is/was. Not to mention by the time they got the production version in, the racing version had to be changed constantly for racing and was never a good enough competitor.

    If you want to really sit down and consider what started M. It was most definitely prior to the M1. It was the 3.0 CSL. The 3.0 CSL originally would power the M1, but changes were made later on in the late 70's to this. The M1 was the right car at the wrong time. Yes, I said the M1 failed as have many others. I strongly suggest you read up on all BMW's to understand more about what happened. I do research on automotive history on a daily basis and have done so for years. Here's some photos of my own to uplift your spirits on my BMW heritage.

    Also, since my books are not online, I strongly urge you to read this link. Very well representative of what happened with the M1 program from start to finish.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/features...the-m1-feature

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    How about BMW just makes something that is a real drivers car on a higher level? Anything? They are having record sales and record profits. What is it going to take to get a real drivers car from the maker of the Ultimate Driving Machine? The fact they are racing a Z4 M but not selling one is a joke in of itself.



    What is the GTS priced at? The E92 M3 is superior as a drivers car to the C63 AMG. The E92 M3 has let me down in several areas namely in the quality of materials used. Lack of dry sump also sucks for a "track day" car supposedly. It's just turned into more of a GT.



    Well you won't confuse it for an accord:

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...es201113-1.jpg
    BMW has been racing non homologated cars for years. It wasn't just the Z4. It dates back to the M3 GTR as far as I remember. I am pretty certain that was the first time they did. However, in that time, they actually made 4 of them total. Maybe we will see a homologated Z4M. Maybe. The GTS in Euros, is priced right with the BS. You get so much more (actually less) with the GTS. A full roll cage, true DCT, no options, everything focused on lightweight. The BS is heavier than the normal C63. Supposed to be the other way around. Mercedes, you're doing it wrong.

    Also, the whole debate on what happened is why I blame Chris Bangle. His design efforts are what ultimately led BMW's tour de force with increasing sales and production. His designs were to change that BMW dna. That's what I do not like about the Bangle era. That's why I am beginning to see a light for BMW. I have seen the light for some time now, but it's getting brighter by the minute. It started with the beautiful new Z4.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    BMW has been racing non homologated cars for years. It wasn't just the Z4. It dates back to the M3 GTR as far as I remember.
    The M3 GTR was within the rules at the time and WAS HOMOLOGATED. And that V8 basically let us know what to expect for the E9X which obviously would get a V8 and BMW would go racing with it. With the Z4 they aren't even making an effort to have a car you can buy based on it.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Also, the whole debate on what happened is why I blame Chris Bangle. His design efforts are what ultimately led BMW's tour de force with increasing sales and production.
    Styling isn't BMW's problem. It's what beneath the skin. The cars actually have become superficial.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The M3 GTR was within the rules at the time and WAS HOMOLOGATED. And that V8 basically let us know what to expect for the E9X which obviously would get a V8 and BMW would go racing with it. With the Z4 they aren't even making an effort to have a car you can buy based on it.



    Styling isn't BMW's problem. It's what beneath the skin. The cars actually have become superficial.
    The E46 M3 GTR was most definitely not within the rules. It wasn't until the following season they homologated the car, then scrapped the program.

    What is the E46 M3 GTR?
    The E46 M3 GTR is a special competition-based version of E46 M3 that was designed to
    compete in the American Le Mans Series. Changes to the ALMS regulations
    ultimately rendered the model ineligible for competition, though not before a
    small number of street-legal iterations were produced in early 2002 in order to
    satisfy the original ALMS rules (which stated that an equivalent street version
    had to be offered to the public on at least two continents within 12 months).

    http://www.bmwmregistry.com/model_faq.php?id=19


    Rivals such as Porsche pointed out that this car was more of a prototype as no V8 engine was available in the road-going BMW E46, which is in violation of the spirit of Gran Turismo. In 2001, ALMS regulations stated that cars must be for sale on two continents within twelve months of the rules being issued. To fulfill this rule, BMW put 10 road going GTRs on sale after the 2001 season, for 250,000 euros (then $218,000) each.
    The ALMS rules were altered for 2002 to state that 100 cars and 1,000 engines must be built for the car to qualify without penalties. Although BMW could have raced the V8 with the new weight and power penalties under these new regulations, they chose to pull out of the ALMS, effectively ending the short-lived M3 GTR's career.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M3#M3_GTR_2
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    The E46 M3 GTR was most definitely not within the rules. It wasn't until the following season they homologated the car, then scrapped the program.
    Sorry, you are wrong. The M3 GTR was within the rules as the rules stated the cars must be for sale on two continents within 12 months of the rules being issued. BMW did this making 10 street legal GTR's effectively following the homologation rules.

    The rules were then changed for the 2002 season and they scrapped the racing program in 2002, not 2001, which is the season in which they followed the homologation rules.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Sorry, you are wrong. The M3 GTR was within the rules as the rules stated the cars must be for sale on two continents within 12 months of the rules being issued. BMW did this making 10 street legal GTR's effectively following the homologation rules.

    The rules were then changed for the 2002 season and they scrapped the racing program in 2002, not 2001, which is the season in which they followed the homologation rules.
    Why not read or post the full article quote. They started racing with a V8 M3. No V8 M3 was built at that time. At the end of the season 2001, they built 5 total. Not 10 as wikipedia states, I have factual data on that from BMW in Munich.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Why not read or post the full article quote. They started racing with a V8 M3. No V8 M3 was built at that time. At the end of the season 2001, they built 5 total.
    What do I need to read I know this from memory. Yes, they started racing with a V8 M3 because you have 12 months to homologate the car after the rules are issued which they did...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    What do I need to read I know this from memory. Yes, they started racing with a V8 M3 because you have 12 months to homologate the car after the rules are issued which they did...
    They put the GTR's for sale, AFTER the season.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    They put the GTR's for sale, AFTER the season.
    Man what part are you not getting about them having 12 months to meet the conditions specified which they did? So you were incorrect they DID race a homologated car.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Man what part are you not getting about them having 12 months to meet the conditions specified which they did? So you were incorrect they DID race a homologated car.
    In the beginning of the 2001 season, there was no M3 GTR road car. In 2002, they scrapped the program. BMW never raced a homologated car. EVER!!!!
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    In the beginning of the 2001 season, there was no M3 GTR road car. In 2002, they scrapped the program. BMW never raced a homologated car. EVER!!!!
    Um, how did they not race a homologated car when they followed the rules for homologation to the letter? What are you talking about?

    The Z4 GTE on the other has no road going variant.

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