Close

Page 4 of 9 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast
Results 76 to 100 of 207
  1. #76
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    119,478
    Rep Points
    32,154.9
    Mentioned
    2109 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    322


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3_WC Click here to enlarge
    The front portion was aluminum.

    BMW reasoning for going all steel, it was too difficult and too costly to repair aluminum frame. In other words, a cop out. They are not in the business of repairing bent frames on cars.
    I agree 100%, Efficient Dynamics is BS.

    Do you have any articles on the frames?

  2. #77
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    119,478
    Rep Points
    32,154.9
    Mentioned
    2109 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    322


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    When I was researching Porsches it was the same thing. It'll be badass, I have a good feeling about it. In a couple years everyone will be raving about it. I guarantee it.
    Porsche is doing a better job than BMW. Their new models actually ARE lighter and more efficient. Notice they haven't felt the need to go all turbo and still improve? Hmm...

  3. #78
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Clarksville, TN
    Posts
    3,903
    Rep Points
    2,483.6
    Mentioned
    44 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    25


    Yes Reputation No
    Excatly but the current Porsche owners were $#@!ing that the new models were going to suck and how much better the 996s were and all that.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Porsche is doing a better job than BMW. Their new models actually ARE lighter and more efficient. Notice they haven't felt the need to go all turbo and still improve? Hmm...
    2011 335is DCT, JB4 + MHD BEF, stage 2 LPFP, e50 + 50/50 meth, FBO, MT ET Streets when needed


  4. #79
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    119,478
    Rep Points
    32,154.9
    Mentioned
    2109 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    322


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    Excatly but the current Porsche owners were $#@!ing that the new models were going to suck and how much better the 996s were and all that.
    Those guys were idiots. I remember getting into an argument with one about the interior and I got banned because I said his 996 interior looked like crap in comparison to the 997. Which it does. Making comments that his penis was small and he couldn't get it up probably didn't help but hey, go out in style.

  5. #80
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    6,684
    Rep Points
    3,343.8
    Mentioned
    226 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    34


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    But look at all the 2,000 HP Supras, Dodge Vipers, Porsche Turbos & GTRs that are all using air/air intercooling. Body layout is a big factor that plays into high HP cars like the the Ford GT & Lambo Gallardo that are forced into going air/water (air/air on those mid-engine cars would a nightmare between IC placement & piping).

    Air/Air vs. Air/Water can be debated endlessly, but it depends on your application. Air/air is going to be significantly more effective on a road car where there's consistently passive airflow going through the FMIC, which would be a more appropriate application on the M3. If you're just building a car to go as fast & quick as possible over a 1/4 mile or full mile, the air/water is going to make the most sense (especially when you can add ice chest & special fluids that'll really assist in the IAT cooling)
    Water has a higher heat capacity than air (in so many words), that is why it is used to cool the engine of your car, it's ability to absorb heat. Provided you mount the heat exchanger for the WTA cooler somewhere that is receiving a constant source of air when moving, it can have a higher efficiency than an ATA cooler. You can also use ice in the water reservoir.

    Only problem is, a WTA setup is slightly heavier because of the pump, heat exchanger and lines required. However, water has a specific heat 4x higher than air (roughly), so some of that weight can be offset by increased cooling.

    One thing to keep in mind, which seems to be missed, is tuning. I'm sure with OEM tuning WTA cooling will be plenty to go around the road course without incurring limp as the car will definitely be tuned within the turbos efficiency maps minimizing heat. With aftermarket tuning however, run meth or E85, nothing new.
    Click here to enlarge

  6. #81
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Simi Valley, CA
    Posts
    8,129
    Rep Points
    9,106.3
    Mentioned
    644 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    92


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by redlineryder Click here to enlarge
    water/air > air/air all day every day. Check out the Ford GT's that are pushing 1000hp+ they are still using the stock water/air intercooler because it does such a great job. If the new m3 includes this like the m5 it will be great, no more intercooler upgrades needed.
    Personally, I've never been a air/water fan. Over complication with an efficiency drop with regard to cooling. Sometimes the packaging makes it a requirement but a good air/air with properly laid out piping is preferable IMHO. I once built a ~650whp turbo car with a large air/water core, and a 5 gallon water reservoir in the trunk. There was a pump about the physical size of our meth pumps used to circulate water. I'd pack it with pounds of ice before each drag run. After the run the ice would have turned in to warm water. It was such a pain in the ass and added a ton of weight. On the street it took forever for the water to cool down with the dedicated radiator.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  7. #82
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    9400' ASL, Colorado
    Posts
    886
    Rep Points
    1,301.6
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    14


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Porsche is doing a better job than BMW. Their new models actually ARE lighter and more efficient. Notice they haven't felt the need to go all turbo and still improve? Hmm...
    Yes, more power with fewer emissions, and their cars continue to get lighter with each generation.

    I think maybe his point about Porsche though is that everyone complains about the next models. Some guys think the last true 911 was the 993, just like some don't look past the E30 M3, even though the modern cars outperform the early cars in every measurable benchmark.
    Current: '00 S2000
    Previous: '15 M235i xDrive | '15 Macan S | '15 WRX STi | '06 Cayman S | '12 E92 335is w/JB4 | '10 STi

  8. #83
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    6,684
    Rep Points
    3,343.8
    Mentioned
    226 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    34


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Personally, I've never been a air/water fan. Over complication with an efficiency drop with regard to cooling. Sometimes the packaging makes it a requirement but a good air/air with properly laid out piping is preferable IMHO. I once built a ~650whp turbo car with a large air/water core, and a 5 gallon water reservoir in the trunk. There was a pump about the physical size of our meth pumps used to circulate water. I'd pack it with pounds of ice before each drag run. After the run the ice would have turned in to warm water. It was such a pain in the ass and added a ton of weight. On the street it took forever for the water to cool down with the dedicated radiator.
    If I had to guess I'd think they went with a very large radiator up front and no room for air to air fmics that could do the job "right" even if you tried aftermarket options

    Another thing to realize is that 1/4 mile is where you're under full boost for only a couple seconds and in most cases turbos are being pushed way out of their efficiency. This isn't what BMW is intending the M3 for. At the road course you're not always under boost and you're giving that water time to cool through the heat exchanger in between on-boost runs.

    And we all know when it comes to Germans they typically overengineer the heck out of everything...and, this is the next M3 we're talking about. I'm sure it won't disappoint.
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 01-25-2013 at 01:15 PM.
    Click here to enlarge

  9. #84
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    119,478
    Rep Points
    32,154.9
    Mentioned
    2109 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    322


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by whoosh Click here to enlarge
    I think maybe his point about Porsche though is that everyone complains about the next models. Some guys think the last true 911 was the 993, just like some don't look past the E30 M3, even though the modern cars outperform the early cars in every measurable benchmark.
    The Porsche guys somewhat have a point but the 991/997 have gotten so good there is nothing to complain about as they remain true to form.

    BMW on the other hand...

  10. #85
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,177
    Rep Points
    801.6
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    9


    Yes Reputation No
    I agree, not into air water for a front engined car personally. Since you have another cooling circuit you will never get air as cool as air/air, but it does have a higher resilience to heat soak and a smaller core/piping volume. People choose air/water for the response basically, not for cooling capacity since air/air will get colder in most cases.

  11. #86
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Clarksville, TN
    Posts
    3,903
    Rep Points
    2,483.6
    Mentioned
    44 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    25


    Yes Reputation No
    With this being said, once you put meth on the car it doesn't matter except for the added weight of the system correct? You'll have the befefit of response from the WTA system and the meth will make up for what the system lacks in charge air cooling?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    I agree, not into air water for a front engined car personally. Since you have another cooling circuit you will never get air as cool as air/air, but it does have a higher resilience to heat soak and a smaller core/piping volume. People choose air/water for the response basically, not for cooling capacity since air/air will get colder in most cases.
    2011 335is DCT, JB4 + MHD BEF, stage 2 LPFP, e50 + 50/50 meth, FBO, MT ET Streets when needed


  12. #87
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    4,198
    Rep Points
    1,802.9
    Mentioned
    102 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    19


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    On the street it took forever for the water to cool down with the dedicated radiator.
    This is my biggest problem with an air/water setup. It works great until the water temps get out of the efficiency range, at that point you're either going to have be really gentle with the car to get the temps to stabilize & go back down (which doesn't happen very fast).


    IN addition, it just has so many more headaches (and costs) if something breaks (pumps) or starts leaking (coolant cores, plumbing, etc).
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
    Akrapovic DP | Helix FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | Walbro 450LPH Fuel Pump


    "The moment money becomes your motivation, you are immediately not as good as someone who is motivated by passion and internal will." -A. Senna

  13. #88
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    6,684
    Rep Points
    3,343.8
    Mentioned
    226 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    34


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    This is my biggest problem with an air/water setup. It works great until the water temps get out of the efficiency range, at that point you're either going to have be really gentle with the car to get the temps to stabilize & go back down (which doesn't happen very fast).


    IN addition, it just has so many more headaches (and costs) if something breaks (pumps) or starts leaking (coolant cores, plumbing, etc).
    That's exactly it. How quickly do you heat soak an air/air vs. water/air cooler with an efficiently setup tune from the turbo point of view? What's there to say an air/air fmic will do a great job when we all know how "great" they really are on the N54 when the turbos are pushed past their efficiency range. 1-2 runs down the 1/4 and you're heat soaked.

    This comes down to tuning as well. On the road course you simply can't expect to run the same tune as at the 1/4 mile and get the ultimate results in both places. The car simply needs to have different tunes for best results. Same goes for the street. You take into consideration the when/where/how every time you do any tune for any given setup in order to do the right thing for a given setup or otherwise you're simply not "setup" right.

    Same goes for many other things on the car, starting with tires, then suspension, etc etc.
    Click here to enlarge

  14. #89
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,177
    Rep Points
    801.6
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    9


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    With this being said, once you put meth on the car it doesn't matter except for the added weight of the system correct? You'll have the befefit of response from the WTA system and the meth will make up for what the system lacks in charge air cooling?
    Most people who run meth do it without an IC. But yeah, it would be better with air/water than air/air using meth since you got better response.

  15. #90
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    4,198
    Rep Points
    1,802.9
    Mentioned
    102 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    19


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    That's exactly it. How quickly do you heat soak an air/air vs. water/air cooler with an efficiently setup tune from the turbo point of view? What's there to say an air/air fmic will do a great job when we all know how "great" they really are on the N54 when the turbos are pushed past their efficiency range. 1-2 runs down the 1/4 and you're heat soaked.
    I said it in an earlier post (73), you need to identify what you're doing with the car:
    • Air/Air setup is best for a car that sees street use/road course driving (the M3, Porsche Turbos, GTR). Because of the higher amount of passive airflow during driving, an air/air will be more effective at IAT reduction.
    • Air/Water is best for a car that does quick spurts of very aggressive driving, whether it's the 1/4 mile or 1 mile pulls (Corvette ZR1/Camaro ZL1/Cadillac CTS-V). Because the engine is driven very hard for a short amount of time, there is no real concern for the waters temps to go out of the efficiency range (you can just add a ton of ice & bring your temps down after some pulls)
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
    Akrapovic DP | Helix FMIC | Alpina TCM Flash | Walbro 450LPH Fuel Pump


    "The moment money becomes your motivation, you are immediately not as good as someone who is motivated by passion and internal will." -A. Senna

  16. #91
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    13,462
    Rep Points
    58.0
    Mentioned
    318 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    Im one of those guys that doesnt care about the means in which bmw chooses to power the M3/4, as long as its an actual monster.

    BUT,
    from the few pics available, its not enough for me aesthetically to jump ship from E92-F80 , or '14 vette/996 -F80

  17. #92
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    119,478
    Rep Points
    32,154.9
    Mentioned
    2109 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    322


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    Im one of those guys that doesnt care about the means in which bmw chooses to power the M3/4, as long as its an actual monster.

    BUT,
    from the few pics available, its not enough for me aesthetically to jump ship from E92-F80 , or '14 vette/996 -F80
    You sure?

    Click here to enlarge

  18. #93
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    13,462
    Rep Points
    58.0
    Mentioned
    318 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    That's exactly it. How quickly do you heat soak an air/air vs. water/air cooler with an efficiently setup tune from the turbo point of view? What's there to say an air/air fmic will do a great job when we all know how "great" they really are on the N54 when the turbos are pushed past their efficiency range. 1-2 runs down the 1/4 and you're heat soaked.

    This comes down to tuning as well. On the road course you simply can't expect to run the same tune as at the 1/4 mile and get the ultimate results in both places. The car simply needs to have different tunes for best results. Same goes for the street. You take into consideration the when/where/how every time you do any tune for any given setup in order to do the right thing for a given setup or otherwise you're simply not "setup" right.

    Same goes for many other things on the car, starting with tires, then suspension, etc etc.

    neither air/air, air/water is going to have any effect if your heat issue is due to overpushing the turbos, so its a design issue. air/air will always be better for longer events, hot water/liquid will always get hotter as its still being driven

  19. #94
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    13,462
    Rep Points
    58.0
    Mentioned
    318 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    yup

  20. #95
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Mars, Gale Crater
    Posts
    873
    Rep Points
    682.4
    Mentioned
    53 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    7


    Yes Reputation No
    you're crazy, that thing is beautiful. AND that's what she said
    335xi (sold)
    www.datazap.me - fast, free, interactive datalogs

    Click here to enlarge

  21. #96
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Doylestown,PA
    Posts
    283
    Rep Points
    913.1
    Mentioned
    67 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Prediction:

    N54 bottom end
    N55 top end
    3.3L (N54 can easily do this)
    10:1 compression
    BW turbos + 1 electrical
    Closed deck
    7200rpm redline
    All forged
    I'm with you.I hope they close the f'n deck...

  22. #97
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Jersey City
    Posts
    3,852
    Rep Points
    3,642.6
    Mentioned
    74 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    37


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    yup

    Not me, the latest pics of the coupe are stunning.... Of course they have bimmerpost watermarked all over them....
    Click here to enlarge
    ESS 6XX kit

  23. #98
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Clarksville, TN
    Posts
    3,903
    Rep Points
    2,483.6
    Mentioned
    44 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    25


    Yes Reputation No
    I saw those too and it is so beautiful. I used to hate how the lights met up with the grilles but it has grown on me.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    Not me, the latest pics of the coupe are stunning.... Of course they have bimmerpost watermarked all over them....
    2011 335is DCT, JB4 + MHD BEF, stage 2 LPFP, e50 + 50/50 meth, FBO, MT ET Streets when needed


  24. #99
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    13,462
    Rep Points
    58.0
    Mentioned
    318 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge

    Looks like a hatchback, dont like it



    Click here to enlarge

    I like the new idrive screen, but basically the same interior

    Its not a complete redesign, and thats why im not ecstatic about it

  25. #100
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    The world...
    Posts
    1,331
    Rep Points
    1,202.2
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    13


    Yes Reputation No
    exterior is awesome... interior sucks, I really don't think it's accurate... that shifter and steering wheel is terrible and the gauges and trims dont make much sense
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

Page 4 of 9 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •