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  1. #1
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You can rebuild as many as you want it doesn't change the architecture of the motor.

    The S65 even with a liter of displacement penalty puts down more power stock. Better curve, better heads, better valvetrain, higher redline, more room to increase stroke, etc.

    With just a supercharger it hits numbers on stock internals the S62 can't.

    If you can give me a technical reason why the S62 is better I'd love to hear it.
    Talking about architecture...

    The weak spot on all S65/S85 is the bedplate construction of the block.

    Quite a huge amount of these engines blow up due to bearing issues(mostly mains).
    Because block and bedplate move against each other under high stress.

    Then there is the Vanos high pressure pump issues that often take out the whole engine.

    Plus crank sprockets sheering off the crank and flying through the oil pan(usually on cars where launch control is used often).

    The heads are not a bit better or worse than the S62,both have flow restrictions in them.

    I do not at all deny the s65/S85 engines are more sophisticated than the S62,but they are in some areas over engineered,which makes them prone to fail.
    Take the oil pump drive on S65/S85 for example(crank drives Vanos pump,Vanos pump drives oil pump).
    An oil pump needs to be driven straight by the crank,to prevent loosing the oil pressure if anything else of the non-primary crank driven parts fail.


    The S62 has as weak spot only the rod bearings.
    Chain guides fail on those at mileages belt driven engines have already twice the belts replaced,so it does not really take account here.
    Chain driven engines also need maintenance.

    In a s/c or n/a setup,if you compare S62 and S65 at same power levels in the same car,the S62 outperforms the S65.

    Because it has $#@! loads of torque in all rpm ranges.

    Talk to guys who build the engines for the Grand Am cars.
    After the homologation for the S62 ran out and they had to use the S65,they were all desperately trying to get to the same power levels reliable.

    In a race enviroment the S62 has proven to be the most reliable BMW V-engine so far built.


    Sent you a pmClick here to enlarge

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    S65 weakenesses (S85 possible as well) including bedplate, oiling, and flex

    Starting this topic and requesting @S62R join as we discussed in PM's.

    Should make for a very interesting read.

    Few people are aware of the S65 issues on the high end of the forced induction spectrum. That's probably why people go "OMGWTFBBQ why is your build taking so long?"

    Anyway, the S65 is a great motor but when building for BIG boost many things need to be taken into account.

    So, let's discuss the oiling and especially the bedplate moving against the block. There's only really one tuner in the US I even know of aware of this which goes to show something.

    Let's also discuss how to fix it. S62r mentioned he has a solution for the S85 which may apply to the S65 as well.

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    Copied @S62R's post from another thread into here Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by S62R Click here to enlarge
    Then there is the Vanos high pressure pump issues that often take out the whole engine.
    Does this include the S65? I thought it didn't use a high pressure pump - but could be wrong. I had some Vanos issues on the S54, but they were easily addressed - are there issues with S65 coming?

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    I was more generally speaking about the S65/S85 issues,given they are a very similar layout.

    Of course the S65 does not have the high pressure pump as the S85 has.

    Sorry for the confusion.


    The only solution I see at this point is to pin and sleeve the bed plate and the block to keep them in position to each other.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by S62R Click here to enlarge
    I was more generally speaking about the S65/S85 issues,given they are a very similar layout.

    Of course the S65 does not have the high pressure pump as the S85 has.

    Sorry for the confusion.


    The only solution I see at this point is to pin and sleeve the bed plate and the block to keep them in position to each other.
    No worries, was just curious... More than appreciate the information. How is the bedplate held to the block right now? I am not too familiar with engine design at this level, so am curious what is currently done at stock levels to keep them together. Is it the heat and pressure that causes issues with the bedplate? I am curious what exactly happens to the bedplate at high levels of output. This is good information for tuners I would imagine, always was curious what was going on with the bearing issues. When the bedplate isn't in position, I am assuming clearances tighten - and things start to rub? In other words, is it not an oiling issue?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by S62R Click here to enlarge
    The only solution I see at this point is to pin and sleeve the bed plate and the block to keep them in position to each other.
    I'm not exactly sure how this is done? Have you done this?

    This will prevent it from moving at any power level?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by S62R Click here to enlarge
    Of course the S65 does not have the high pressure pump as the S85 has.
    Is this an issue for the S65?

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    Not to derail, but the S62 is still in production, correct? Because the Ascari A10 uses them (highly modified up to 625 HP)
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  10. #10
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Not to derail, but the S62 is still in production, correct? Because the Ascari A10 uses them (highly modified up to 625 HP)
    I don't think so...they may be sourcing old motors.

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    I remember reading in the past Dinan had developed a M3 based 4.5L V8 for the Daytona Prototypes in the Rolex series. But I don't think any of the BMW powered teams switched over to it from the 5.0L M5 based powerplant. That was in the beginning of last season.

    The teams running in the Continental Tire series don't seem to be have any problems with the S65.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
    The teams running in the Continental Tire series don't seem to be have any problems with the S65.
    Neither do any of the M3 GT4's...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    No worries, was just curious... More than appreciate the information. How is the bedplate held to the block right now? I am not too familiar with engine design at this level, so am curious what is currently done at stock levels to keep them together. Is it the heat and pressure that causes issues with the bedplate? I am curious what exactly happens to the bedplate at high levels of output. This is good information for tuners I would imagine, always was curious what was going on with the bearing issues. When the bedplate isn't in position, I am assuming clearances tighten - and things start to rub? In other words, is it not an oiling issue?
    These are really good questions and I would like answers as well.

    So maybe all this time it's not the bearings but just the flex.

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    The bed plate has just guide bolts and the main bearing bolts stock.
    I will post some pics next week when I take an S85 apart.

    Aircooled Porsche crank cases had a similar problem with the split crank cases moving against each other on highly modified engines.So using pins and dowels worked out well when I first tried this solution it about 20 years ago.

    Bear in mind,we are here so far only talking about the solution in theory,I am still working on it and it will take time to see if it works.

    The reason the bed plate moves is a combination of heat,loads applied by rotational mass and high frequency vibrations.

    I will see how well the crank is balanced,but have a strong feeling it is not perfect(always a compromise in mass-production engines and usually mostly compensated by the vibration damper).

    A short note on the S62:
    -Yes,you can still buy factory rebuilt engines.
    -Ascari CLAIMS 600BHP+ from their engines,no proof around to confirm that.
    -The reason the S62 does not survive 8k+ RPM is the crank starts vibrating that badly it eventually breaks apart(seen that often on race S62s at 8500rpm).
    keeping the main bearing caps with dowels in place minimizes the issue quite a bit.

    But back to S65/S85...

    I will keep you guys updated on the progress on that issue.
    It is also not exactly a cheap fix,as it includes full engine tear down.

    So nothing that makes sense on a stock S65.

    I hope you understand that some questions I will not answer with all details.
    Still have a business to runClick here to enlarge

    BTW,if anyone is looking for a trustworthy shop in the tri-state are,pm me.
    The owner comes next week over to me for a training on how to rebuild S54/S62/S85...

    My good friend Sal from Evolve joins us as well,he had the training on the S62 already many years ago and built quite a few very high power n/a S62s after that himself.

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    Perhaps you can send these findings to BMW NA and have them forward these to BMW M GMbH. I really do believe that BMW focuses a lot on customer relations. For instance in 2009 a US BMW dealership owner told them that the market was going to be in a slump and advised them to slow market production. BMW listened. So perhaps maybe find some one to talk to and notify them? It's the only way for BMW to learn from their mistakes to continue building great engines. Sounds like a shot in the dark but it may work.

    Also if you could pm me the name of your shop I would much appreciate it. Definitely sounds like you have a lot of knowledge when it comes to BMW's and building their engines. Have you taken apart a N54 yet?
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    BMW engineers are aware of issues.

    But it is not the engineers who do the decisions,it comes down to the accountants what is a reasonable production cost in mass production.

    So the aim is to find a balance between production cost and engineering,just like in any other business.

    Sorry,I do not have any experience with the N54,as I focus on the S-engines.

    I shoot you a pmClick here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by S62R Click here to enlarge
    The bed plate has just guide bolts and the main bearing bolts stock.
    I will post some pics next week when I take an S85 apart.

    Aircooled Porsche crank cases had a similar problem with the split crank cases moving against each other on highly modified engines.So using pins and dowels worked out well when I first tried this solution it about 20 years ago.

    Bear in mind,we are here so far only talking about the solution in theory,I am still working on it and it will take time to see if it works.
    If it works I would be interested in this solution.

    Would it better if they didn't use a split design with a bedplate?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Perhaps you can send these findings to BMW NA and have them forward these to BMW M GMbH. I really do believe that BMW focuses a lot on customer relations. For instance in 2009 a US BMW dealership owner told them that the market was going to be in a slump and advised them to slow market production. BMW listened. So perhaps maybe find some one to talk to and notify them? It's the only way for BMW to learn from their mistakes to continue building great engines. Sounds like a shot in the dark but it may work.

    Also if you could pm me the name of your shop I would much appreciate it. Definitely sounds like you have a lot of knowledge when it comes to BMW's and building their engines. Have you taken apart a N54 yet?
    Sales are one thing, design changes for enthusiasts are a whole different thing. With how long it took them to even acknowledge S54 bearing issues I doubt they will do anything.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by S62R Click here to enlarge
    Sorry,I do not have any experience with the N54,as I focus on the S-engines.
    As it should be

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Sales are one thing, design changes for enthusiasts are a whole different thing. With how long it took them to even acknowledge S54 bearing issues I doubt they will do anything.
    Not that I disagree with you but 1 year is not that bad. I'm coming from Nissan and they rarely ever correct their issues. When they do it's a hassle to get them to step forward and pay.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Not that I disagree with you but 1 year is not that bad. I'm coming from Nissan and they rarely ever correct their issues. When they do it's a hassle to get them to step forward and pay.
    Same with BMW.

    I'm primarily interested in a solution for this bedplate issue. Last thing I need is to make huge power and for the block to flex.

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    I wish an aftermarket racing block was an option.

  23. #23
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I wish an aftermarket racing block was an option.

    This is only a question of money,not availability...Click here to enlarge

    A bed plate is always a split design as you have upper and lower block part.

  24. #24
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by S62R Click here to enlarge
    This is only a question of money,not availability...
    How much $?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by S62R Click here to enlarge
    A bed plate is always a split design as you have upper and lower block part.
    Yes, but I'm asking if it would be better as a single design and not split.

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    thanks for the information.was planning on twin turbocharging S65 or S85, now quit that Project. will stick to my S54 B35
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