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  1. #126
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    highways are not organized into classes, its either a performane car, or not. and in N/A form, its horrible choice.
    Idiotic. Horrible choice in NA form? I think you're too obsessed with acceleration numbers. It's spectacular in NA form.

    Do you ever actually just drive a car? You know, without racing? If so, the NA S65 is a marvel.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    I agree, especially for the price. The next gen turbo m3/m4 will take care of that
    Why? What is oh so terrible about mid 12's stock? It's just as fast as the C63 AMG yet somehow that isn't called horrible?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Idiotic. Horrible choice in NA form? I think you're too obsessed with acceleration numbers. It's spectacular in NA form.

    Do you ever actually just drive a car? You know, without racing? If so, the NA S65 is a marvel.
    People that actually track their car on a consistent basis, realize why a high revving NA motor is so amazing. Even in completely stock form the S65 is a dream on a road course. But you have to realize there is a new breed owning BMW's in the last few years. They use to be with other brands. A lot of the new owners are into stop light racing, not accelerating from an apex.

  4. #129
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
    People that actually track their car on a consistent basis, realize why a high revving NA motor is so amazing. Even in completely stock form the S65 is a dream on a road course
    Exactly. Not to mention its response and power delivery. Calling it horrible is too stupid to even acknowledge. There is a reason why it wins best engine of the year in its class all the time.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
    But you have to realize there is a new breed owning BMW's in the last few years. They use to be with other brands. A lot of the new owners are into stop light racing, not accelerating from an apex.
    Yep, they are unable to think outside the box. These are the people who think the N54 is better than the S65. These are the people whose opinions don't hold any merit.

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  5. #130
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    Sticky You really cant take a very rarely made motor, throw a few wins under its belt and call it 'best reliable motor ever'

    How many S62s are being used out there in Grand Am/Koni Challenge/SCCA etc? A lot....and at the somewhat budget level they are extremely robust motors. There is a reason why Turner Motorsports still uses the S62 in their E92 M3 race car and ditched the S65...for the exact same reasons @S62R stated...they cant hold themselves together for the 24hrs of Daytona.

    I dont give a hoot if you dont wanna compare it to Nurburgring or LeMans, but 24hrs non stop is 24hrs. Having a motor make it through the race is a lot more important than using BMWs latest and greatest V8...they cant even keep themselves together in a stock M3 that drives everyday.

    Dry sump it you say? Still doesnt address the issue with the bedplate moving against the block...that is something that BMW has to address as a manufacturer, not just adding parts to make the problem go away.

  6. #131
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Itsbrokeagain Click here to enlarge
    Sticky You really cant take a very rarely made motor, throw a few wins under its belt and call it 'best reliable motor ever'
    You're telling me a motor good enough for the McLaren F1 and that won the 24 Hours of Le Mans isn't a reliable BMW V engine in racing? Really?

    24 Hours of Le Mans. Not Grand Am. Big boy racing.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Itsbrokeagain Click here to enlarge
    How many S62s are being used out there in Grand Am/Koni Challenge/SCCA etc? A lot....
    Because of class restrictions and that they are cheaper. Not better.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Itsbrokeagain Click here to enlarge
    I dont give a hoot if you dont wanna compare it to Nurburgring or LeMans, but 24hrs non stop is 24hrs.
    Uh ya that's exactly what I said.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Itsbrokeagain Click here to enlarge
    Dry sump it you say? Still doesnt address the issue with the bedplate moving against the block...that is something that BMW has to address as a manufacturer, not just adding parts to make the problem go away.
    This can be rectified. The S62 isn't perfect and it doesn't have much material between the pistons. It also has the other deficiencies in comparison I mentioned.

    You give me an S65 naturally aspirated on the road course all day versus your S62. The S65 will win. Especially at 4.6 liters and 9000 rpm.

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  7. #132
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Yep, they are unable to think outside the box. These are the people who think the N54 is better than the S65. These are the people whose opinions don't hold any merit.
    I dont think many people think the n54 is better, I do think people like the n54's everyday road manners and street-ability. Not everyone takes their car to the track.

    Ultimately BMW is going turbo and ditching the NA high revving motor....it may be a mistake, or it may not, time will tell. I don't think anyone complains about the insane performance from a 911 turbo....why can't BMW get the same performance out of a new turbo m3?
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    @Irishace how about Z4 m?

  9. #134
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    I dont think many people think the n54 is better, I do think people like the n54's everyday road manners and street-ability. Not everyone takes their car to the track.
    I'm not a fan of turbo lag or the power delivery of the N54 on the street. I think it's street manners are overrated personally.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    Ultimately BMW is going turbo and ditching the NA high revving motor....it may be a mistake, or it may not, time will tell. I don't think anyone complains about the insane performance from a 911 turbo....why can't BMW get the same performance out of a new turbo m3?
    They are switching for cost and emissions reasons, that's all.

    I think people do complain about the 911 Turbo. They own the 911 GT3.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    ^ n54 owners just look at peak hp on the graph and that's it. The e46 m3 is a more satisfying drive than any n54 equipped vehicle. It also offers better response, weight, and potential.
    Nah, we look at area under the curve.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Blaizon Click here to enlarge
    Nah, we look at area under the curve.
    Without taking gearing, weight, or redline into account apparently.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Without taking gearing, weight, or redline into account apparently.

    I do take that into consideration, and for my driving style having a high strung, high revving/geared car is no fun. At the same point having a low reving tq monster is no fun either. I need a balance of both which the n54 offers. Suspsension is not a problem, I have plans in the works for that.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Blaizon Click here to enlarge
    I need a balance of both.
    S65 has 90% of torque available from 1800 rpm. Done.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    S65 has 90% of torque available from 1800 rpm. Done.

    High strung, no fun for me to drive in NA form...FI'd and I could see myself having fun, but my power goals would be too costly to achieve on that platform.

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    The away this thread is going makes no sense. There are reasons why engines are RATED in categories. You're comparing now OEM N/A vs OEM FI...new topic

    You want to compare race bred engines take the S65 and stack it up against the S63. We'll see how that comparo unfolds.

    Why don't we also throw in the diesel motors now..
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    The away this thread is going makes no sense. There are reasons why engines are RATED in categories. You're comparing now OEM N/A vs OEM FI...new topic

    You want to compare race bred engines take the S65 and stack it up against the S63. We'll see how that comparo unfolds.

    Why don't we also throw in the diesel motors now..
    You're really so confused with this topic that you are throwing diesel motors in now?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    @Irishace how about Z4 m?
    I just think it is ugly Click here to enlarge
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  18. #143
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    LOL absolutely not...you're the one confused here losing track of the focus of this thread..we might as well throw in topics on suspension setups now too
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    LOL absolutely not...you're the one confused here losing track of the focus of this thread..we might as well throw in topics on suspension setups now too
    Oh suspension has to do with the motors in the OP?

    Are you not capable of evolving a discussion or going further into depth?

    Relax and let people discuss the motors. Thanks.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You know what you are talking about, all correct.



    Both can be improved but the S65 heads are far superior and designed to flow to 9000+. Just look at the hp per liter numbers, redline, and curve. The S65 breathes considerably better.

    S65/S85 have huge flow restrictions on the exhaust side.Just because it is a high reving engine,it does not mean the flow rate is better.



    Dry sump it. Then which is better?



    What about the bore spacing? The M62 really makes more sense for boost.

    Bore spacing is not an issue up to 10psi on standard internals.For higher boost levels,M62 and S62 need sleeving to be reliable.



    I do not agree with this whatsoever. And additionally, the S65 reaches higher power levels more easily than the S62. The S62 requires more boost to reach the same HP even with more displacement.

    We talk about 2-3 psi difference..




    It has more torque due to the displacement but not all RPM ranges. What's its torque at 8500 rpm? Click here to enlarge

    Compare them up to 7000rpm Click here to enlarge

    Additionally, the S65 has far more room to increase stroke.

    To increase the piston speed(average and maximum) even more on an engine design that has bottom end issues is a marvelous idea,IMO.



    Grand Am wins are nice. But... I'd have to say this title goes to the S70/2. Le Mans is a little more difficult... Click here to enlarge

    The factory race engines have almost nothing in common with the road engines.
    Do not think there is a difference between 24h Daytona and 24h Le Mans regarding stress on race cars and components)


    PM much appreciated, sent one back.

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    You clearly didn't get the point of me bringing up diesel motors or suspension at this point in this thread...discuss whatever you wish..sometimes its good to stay on topic and make a new thread on a new one Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by S62R Click here to enlarge
    S65/S85 have huge flow restrictions on the exhaust side.Just because it is a high reving engine,it does not mean the flow rate is better.
    There may be restrictions but the heads are still better. And if you improve them further...

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by S62R Click here to enlarge
    Bore spacing is not an issue up to 10psi on standard internals.For higher boost levels,M62 and S62 need sleeving to be reliable.
    Exactly.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by S62R Click here to enlarge
    We talk about 2-3 psi difference..
    True, so we agree the S65 makes more power per pound of boost.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by S62R Click here to enlarge
    Compare them up to 7000rpm
    haha see you can't do that! Different camshaft profiles. The S65 offers greater range, it's true.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by S62R Click here to enlarge
    To increase the piston speed(average and maximum) even more on an engine design that has bottom end issues is a marvelous idea,IMO.
    The piston speed is very low with the conservative stroke. Even BMW increases the stroke themselves. And even with the increased stroke it gets nowhere near S54 piston speeds stock.

    I would like to delve more into the bottom end issues though. Perhaps an S65 weakness thread?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by S62R Click here to enlarge
    The factory race engines have almost nothing in common with the road engines.
    Do not think there is a difference between 24h Daytona and 24h Le Mans regarding stress on race cars and components)
    Would you agree the motor I mentioned is the best BMW V motor for racing though?

    I think the 24 Hour of Le Mans is more competitive with higher end entries.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    You clearly didn't get the point of me bringing up diesel motors or suspension at this point in this thread...discuss whatever you wish..sometimes its good to stay on topic and make a new thread on a new one Click here to enlarge
    That could only happen if the discussion evolved and hence why the ability to move posts exists. I know how to manage a thread, thanks.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I'm not a fan of turbo lag or the power delivery of the N54 on the street. I think it's street manners are overrated personally.



    They are switching for cost and emissions reasons, that's all.

    I think people do complain about the 911 Turbo. They own the 911 GT3.
    The n54's turbo lag is extremely minimal.

    I can't wait till the new turbo m kicks the $#@! out of the e9x s65 m in all categories. The only people complaining will be the people that don't own one.
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