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  1. #876
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Did you not read the thread? 441 whp dyno posted. No cam work, no head work. It will do over 500 whp if someone spends the money to take it there.

    Just like how early GT3 motors can match the new GT3 motors when displacement is increased, new cams, and more revs.
    Nope didnt look at all no desire to sort thru all the minutia... So basically 440whp or so is the max these motors are seeing NA unless someone spends some bucks on cams & headwork. Has there been a 500whp S65 done that anyone is aware of or are we speculating 500whp. I'd be interested in seeing results for cammed S65 with headwork in NA form. Even a stroker with head work and cams along with the costs as well.
    We stay swingin...
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sledgehammer Click here to enlarge
    So basically 440whp or so is the max these motors are seeing NA unless someone spends some bucks on cams & headwork.
    Well that's also with a pretty crappy tune.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sledgehammer Click here to enlarge
    Has there been a 500whp S65 done that anyone is aware of or are we speculating 500whp.
    Race trim obviously but for the street people just boost instead. I'd love to do a naturally aspirated 500 whp S65 but then all I'd hear is, "The single turbo will walk you man lololollollolol" and retarded junk like that.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Of course bigger motors will make more power NA. Is this ground breaking news?

    How about the S85 naturally aspirated, how does it do? How about versus the Coyote of equal displacement? Doesn't it trounce it? Same architecture as the S65. What is so hard to understand here? Clearly the engineering and design is superior if one motor of the same displacement makes far more power with more capability.

    I love how the M3 is compared against bigger motors yet people just completely ignore the design which makes it as powerful as it is to begin with and ABLE to compete with larger V8's.
    Lets stick to the S65 as thats the motor in question Sticky. I've not declared one motor to be more or less superior than another. I spoke to what I thought LostMarine was trying to get across and thats it. Doesnt matter to me either way. I find the whole conversation interesting as whole and really want to see info on what this motor does with mods compared to other V8's out there. Lower displacement or not it seems to come up short after a certain point unless someone goes the extra mile.
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  4. #879
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Well that's also with a pretty crappy tune.



    Race trim obviously but for the street people just boost instead. I'd love to do a naturally aspirated 500 whp S65 but then all I'd hear is, "The single turbo will walk you man lololollollolol" and retarded junk like that.
    Someone will always want more power so it is what it is... Still a cammed S65 with headwork and full bolts sounds interesting. I wonder about the costs and so on. That really the difference from the euro V8's to the US V8 motors. Theres a vast aftermarket for valve trains, cams, heads and so on. Its more established in this regard the euro motors are playing catchup and in some ways because of the higher revs and lower displacement they have to resort to boost. Its the most cost effective way to yield significant power.
    We stay swingin...
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sledgehammer Click here to enlarge
    Lets stick to the S65 as thats the motor in question Sticky
    How can you ignore the motor it's based on then?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sledgehammer Click here to enlarge
    Lower displacement or not it seems to come up short after a certain point unless someone goes the extra mile.
    It's comes up LARGER for its displacement than the other V8's. It can't match a 7.0 liter why would anyone expect it to?

    Look, what does an LS7 hit naturally aspirated? We all have an idea. An S85 can hit it too. Doesn't that prove to you that the only limiting factor is displacement when it can do what a larger V8 does even with less? Doesn't that support an excellent design? Wouldn't that in fact support the engineers who have awarded the motor? Would that not support all the racing victories? These issues are all tied together but being ignored based on "omg WHP with bolt ons" which is just flat out dumb.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sledgehammer Click here to enlarge
    Someone will always want more power so it is what it is... Still a cammed S65 with headwork and full bolts sounds interesting. I wonder about the costs and so on. That really the difference from the euro V8's to the US V8 motors. Theres a vast aftermarket for valve trains, cams, heads and so on. Its more established in this regard the euro motors are playing catchup and in some ways because of the higher revs and lower displacement they have to resort to boost. Its the most cost effective way to yield significant power.
    You don't have to resort to boost by any means it's a cost issue more than anything. Would you rather supercharge an S54 with an off the shelf kit or build an all motor stroker with high compression and race gas for 3x the cost and with less power?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You don't have to resort to boost by any means it's a cost issue more than anything. Would you rather supercharge an S54 with an off the shelf kit or build an all motor stroker with high compression and race gas for 3x the cost and with less power?
    And there is the entire point in my view...

    Get boosted with this motor and make 5XX with ease with some room to grow or spend 3X that and make 4XX all NA and be maxed out... I feel that really alludes to LostMarines point which is the lower 4XXwhp range is as far as one can go all motor for reasonable cost. After that boost becomes the best bang for the buck. Where other V8's can get into the 5xx range all motor and not break the bank. Just my interpretation
    We stay swingin...
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  8. #883
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sledgehammer Click here to enlarge
    And there is the entire point in my view...

    Get boosted with this motor and make 5XX with ease with some room to grow or spend 3X that and make 4XX all NA and be maxed out... I feel that really alludes to LostMarines point which is the lower 4XXwhp range is as far as one can go all motor for reasonable cost. After that boost becomes the best bang for the buck. Where other V8's can get into the 5xx range all motor and not break the bank. Just my interpretation
    No, what he said was the motor is weak. I tried to explain the cost issue but it didn't sink in either. Hence the GT3 being mentioned to begin with.

    His criteria was bolt on mods which is idiotic.

  9. #884
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sledgehammer Click here to enlarge
    And there is the entire point in my view...

    Get boosted with this motor and make 5XX with ease with some room to grow or spend 3X that and make 4XX all NA and be maxed out... I feel that really alludes to LostMarines point which is the lower 4XXwhp range is as far as one can go all motor for reasonable cost. After that boost becomes the best bang for the buck. Where other V8's can get into the 5xx range all motor and not break the bank. Just my interpretation
    Precisely
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sledgehammer Click here to enlarge
    And there is the entire point in my view...

    Get boosted with this motor and make 5XX with ease with some room to grow or spend 3X that and make 4XX all NA and be maxed out... I feel that really alludes to LostMarines point which is the lower 4XXwhp range is as far as one can go all motor for reasonable cost. After that boost becomes the best bang for the buck. Where other V8's can get into the 5xx range all motor and not break the bank. Just my interpretation
    Bingo and LM was his nameooo!
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    How are the numbers close? You are looking at peak power - look at the area under the curve. The redline of the S65 is 8400 - so you would have to fill the area of that curve 9 MORE "squares" (each one is 250 RPM) to the RIGHT. Think about that.
    If you plot say a s65 vs 5.0 I will win that argument. Area under the cure is what I always talk about and preach. Peak HP/TQ looks cool, but I could care less about that.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    No, what he said was the motor is weak. I tried to explain the cost issue but it didn't sink in either. Hence the GT3 being mentioned to begin with.

    His criteria was bolt on mods which is idiotic.
    Ok its not weak its tapped out of the factory..i dont know which is worse lol
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Ok so the N54 would get smacked around racing in stock form, thanks for that.

    So what motor is it in the this OP that you are soooo stoked on?

    What engine is it you would race with out of the box that you would be dominating the M3 with? None of its actual competition...
    typical.. bring up a motor i never mentioned until quoting you to tell you i never mentioned it.
    a boosted s65 will provide what he wants, but never in N/A form.. oh you see that.. thats called fact
    actual competition? every car on the road is its actual competition.. not some "class" that 98% of the consumers do not care about..

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    No, what he said was the motor is weak. I tried to explain the cost issue but it didn't sink in either. Hence the GT3 being mentioned to begin with.

    His criteria was bolt on mods which is idiotic.
    I can only speak to his posts and conversations he and I have had more than once. The motor is weak in power under the curve compared to other V8's from the US which means its weak compared to those motors. Not that the motor itself is weak. The cost to mod the motor is higher compared to those same motors... Perhaps it wasnt articulated as well but thats what I have always taken from his posts and various conversations.
    We stay swingin...
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  15. #890
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Context:

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...01/XeMuK-1.png




    Of course you don't care, you ignore everything except bolt on's. Good criteria for evaluation you have.

    How could a panel of the world's best engine engineers possibly know more than you?



    Apparently you used the wrong criteria for what mattered to you. I'm sorry you didn't know what you were buying and that you don't understand your own motor and car.



    Actually it's that you didn't understand the differences in the M156. See, when you bring up a motor and don't even know the details about the motor you are bringing up that's a bit of a problem. It's ok you didn't understand the differences in the C63 Black Series, I explained them to you.



    What is the one motor I have chosen? You have a plethora of engines I have shown the M3 to be more powerful than, equal to, whatever. So what's your point?



    The BMW M3 and the Mustang are not what people cross shop. Just because two car have V8's and rear wheel drive does not make them the same style of car. A Ferrari 458 has a V8 and rear wheel drive and is a coupe too. I guess the M3 should be targeting it?



    No, you just type it.
    1. i see you dropped your argument using the P65. I expected that as it proved what i claimed, and showed you have no logical basis for discussion
    2. you didnt buy the car for road racing either, didnt know about boosting it until after. wish it had more power N/a as well.
    3.im well aware of the merc motors.. you fail to realize, noone cares what they have to do to get the desired result. only that a satisfying end state is achieved. S65 failed at that
    4. you showed 10 year old motors that equaled the s65. you proved my point for me. and other motors that completely destroy it mod-mod..
    5.riiiight.. they dont cross shop the cars, and you know this why? because you considered getting a gt500? oh, thats because its motor is so stout? or the vette's.. why? because the motors are so stout.. yes, plenty of people cross shop the cars. get off your elitest horse and realize just because someone can afford an expensive car, doesnt mean they MUST buy it..

  16. #891
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Ok its not weak its tapped out of the factory..i dont know which is worse lol
    How is another 50 whp with just bolt on's tapped out?

  17. #892
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sledgehammer Click here to enlarge
    And there is the entire point in my view...

    Get boosted with this motor and make 5XX with ease with some room to grow or spend 3X that and make 4XX all NA and be maxed out... I feel that really alludes to LostMarines point which is the lower 4XXwhp range is as far as one can go all motor for reasonable cost. After that boost becomes the best bang for the buck. Where other V8's can get into the 5xx range all motor and not break the bank. Just my interpretation
    its not just interpretation, is a factual statement, no interpretation required. cannot be more accurately defined or expressed

  18. #893
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    1. i see you dropped your argument using the P65. I expected that as it proved what i claimed, and showed you have no logical basis for discussion
    Who is dropping the argument that the S65 architecture is designed as a race motor and dominates as such?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    2. you didnt buy the car for road racing either, didnt know about boosting it until after. wish it had more power N/a as well.
    I never complained about the NA power. It's the people who don't even realize how much is there to begin with that do. I said it could run 11's with bolt on's, was laughed at, told I was an idiot, etc., and was proven absolutely correct regarding my statement. It's pretty much always me trying to educate people who have no idea what they are talking about. Case and point with this discussion.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    3.im well aware of the merc motors.. you fail to realize, noone cares what they have to do to get the desired result. only that a satisfying end state is achieved. S65 failed at that
    Good argument, $105,000 starting price for a Mercedes special versus the starting $60k BMW M3. The failure isn't the M3 not topping a car that came out years later at a $40,000 higher starting price point. Think about it.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    4. you showed 10 year old motors that equaled the s65. you proved my point for me. and other motors that completely destroy it mod-mod..
    The IS-F, RS4, RS5, and C63 are 10 years old? If you can't even count why are we talking?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    riiiight.. they dont cross shop the cars, and you know this why? because you considered getting a gt500? oh, thats because its motor is so stout? or the vette's.. why? because the motors are so stout.. yes, plenty of people cross shop the cars. get off your elitest horse and realize just because someone can afford an expensive car, doesnt mean they MUST buy it..
    Get this through your head: The Mustang is not the M3's competition or target. Please. Grasp it. Please.

  19. #894
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sledgehammer Click here to enlarge
    I can only speak to his posts and conversations he and I have had more than once. The motor is weak in power under the curve compared to other V8's from the US which means its weak compared to those motors. Not that the motor itself is weak. The cost to mod the motor is higher compared to those same motors... Perhaps it wasnt articulated as well but thats what I have always taken from his posts and various conversations.
    Go ahead and speak to whatever you want regarding your personal conversations with him I'm discussing what was discussed in this thread. It may serve you well to actually read it.

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    Since he confirmed that was his intended point my work here is done... Carry on
    We stay swingin...
    Click here to enlarge

  21. #896
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    typical.. bring up a motor i never mentioned until quoting you to tell you i never mentioned it.
    a boosted s65 will provide what he wants, but never in N/A form.. oh you see that.. thats called fact
    actual competition? every car on the road is its actual competition.. not some "class" that 98% of the consumers do not care about..
    Every car on the road is not the M3's target. It's like there is something just mentally off.

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    seems you agree now boss:

    The new M3 is coming and it isn't packing enough of a punch under the hood. We knew it would have a turbocharged inline-6 but we did not seriously think it would only have another 30 horses on the E9X M3 with its 414 horsepower naturally aspirated V8.
    how odd, 440 isnt enough to stay competitive, but 414 is? ROFLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOL!!!!

  23. #898
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sledgehammer Click here to enlarge
    Since he confirmed that was his intended point my work here is done... Carry on
    He will confirm anything you say after the fact if it agrees with him logical, consistent, or not.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    seems you agree now boss:



    how odd, 440 isnt enough to stay competitive, but 414 is? ROFLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOL!!!!
    I couldn't wait for this to come as it was so predictable. If it has 444 crank then it actually WILL BE behind the competition. Notice in every other generation it wasn't.

    Oh, and since you'll miss it again, tip, the competition is not the Mustang GT500. It's the cars mentioned in that article.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I couldn't wait for this to come as it was so predictable. If it has 444 crank then it actually WILL BE behind the competition.

    just as the s65.. or, in your terms, just enough to "keep up with" the competition
    Notice in every other generation it wasn't.

    it has since the s54..




    Oh, and since you'll miss it again, tip, the competition is not the Mustang GT500. It's the cars mentioned in that article.

    ..oh, those other cars that had V8s in the previous generations? really? its uncanny the resemblence to its competition having better v8's, having more power in previous chassis', and now the same thing again.. just not enough..
    lol

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