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  1. #226
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    You were judging it on what again? A P65 with a Pectel? Ya, makes sense of course
    You don't seem to get they were referring to race motors in that article discussing designs with the S65 as a basis. Notice they don't use the N54?

    The street motor with the BMW ecu was the one awarded. You obviously missed where they were discussing its racing capability... whoops. You would want a Pectel in a race car like... the M3 GT4.

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  2. #227
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    I'd never even expect BMW to use the N54, would you?
    That's because they are doing something a little more serious than making youtube videos to post on forums, eh?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Way off topic
    I'll be the judge of that.

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  3. #228
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    We'll see once the F82 M3 is out what BMW will be using in the ALMS, and that motor will be quiet similar to an N54/N55 by all reports so far. Another cruel joke for sure.

    We went from road course racer to endurance racer discussion now too..lovely
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    I'd never even expect BMW to use the N54, would you?
    If it is as great as many make it out to be, why not? FI is allowed in ALMS, just no one f*cking runs it.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    With BMW going FI across the board we'll see what they end up racing with the new M3 coming out WHICH by the way has a motor coming that is very closely based on N54s bottom end with an N55 top end.
    Honestly who knows what BMW will run. Lately they have been able to break homologation rules, so they can run the Z4 GTE with a V8.

    Teams like Fall-Line, Turner Motorsports, Bimmerworld are going to struggle in the Continental Tire series with the next gen M3. The competition will still be running NA V8's. I bet most teams will delay using the next gen M3.
    Last edited by BlackJetE90OC; 01-14-2013 at 01:40 AM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    That's because they are doing something a little more serious than making youtube videos to post on forums, eh?
    Ok...that was funny.Click here to enlarge

  6. #231
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    So we're now talking the best BMW motor/platform for endurance racing? lol ok, cheers!
    Click here to enlarge

  7. #232
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    We'll see once the F82 M3 is out what BMW will be using in the ALMS, and that motor will be quiet similar to an N54/N55 by all reports so far. Another cruel joke for sure.

    We went from road course racer to endurance racer discussion now too..lovely
    BMW is going to a Z4 with the V8 bud. They have had forever to use the N54, they haven't.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    So we're now talking the best BMW motor/platform for endurance racing? lol ok, cheers!
    No we're talking about the best motor architecture. And it's clearly not the one you were portraying.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I don't understand what you are having trouble with here. If a motor is in a much lower state of tune with more displacement of course it will gain more with bolt ons. That isn't exactly great factory engineering.

    what dont you grasp..? it STARTS with more power, even in "lower state of tune".. most importantly, it ENDS with more power in N/A form as well.. tha SHOWS BETTER engineering.. they said "Hey, here's what we are giving you for factory specs.... BUT, we built the thing to be capable of doing this.."

    Why are you basing a motor's quality based on bolt on gains? Don't you see how idiotic this is

    No, you are basing it off gains. dont you see how idiotic you are? Im basing it off final N/A output.



    Nobody is saying you need 100 hp per liter to have a potent motor. What I'm trying to explain to you is you can't seem to differentiate between different motor designs and displacements. You are looking at it as a whole of bolt on performance which is incorrect and ignorant.

    what? your saying you need 100hp/ltr. I didnt bring it up, you did. I cant differentiate between design and displacement? I certainly can. they designed a motor that fails to do what it needs to do, make power. Not my fault they chose not to go with larger displacement, that was their choice. Not my fault they CHOSE to design a motor to deliver a capable end product.

    What are you talking about destroying the BMW engineers in delivery? BMW is the most awarded manufacturer in engine development on the planet. Process that for a second.

    whats an engines #1 job? make power. Does it do it, yea, its a motor.. does it make enough power to be competitive? no.

    right, lots of awards, and the latest one is most over-hyped and under performing.. they have an arbitrary set of standards for awards, but really, i dont care about how many awards they have, they have great motors, N54 as a case in point.. but the S65 is not a potent V8. hell, by your own argument, the GT3 6 has 4.0ltrs, 500hp.. so right off the bat, why i ask, why do I have to have a V8, porsche can deliver more than what I can get N/A from a 6.. definition of failure


    And BMW doesn't just stick to one displacement class or type of motor.

    obviously.. and they shouldnt, its apparant they lost their edge with the S65..


    Um, no, the M3 is the best drivers car in its class by far partially due to having perfect 50/50 weight distribution thanks to the S65 with its low weight aluminum design. You don't really even understand your own car and it's a bit sad.

    again, classes? what class? sports cars with a V8? "sorry bro, i cant race you, we arent in the same class..but here are some awards my engine won.."

    The S65 makes excellent torque and hp per cc with an excellent curve as well. It also keeps pistons speeds fairly low with its short stroke. Have you even looked at the design?

    sure it makes a nice curve, how much does it produce? ill tell you, not enough to be competitive.

    Of course a V8 can do 500 hp na at 4.0 liters just like the 6 can. You do realize one car costs more than twice what the other one does and is a completely different volume seller?

    sure can, but doesnt make the same #'s.. price? whoa buddy, you brought it up, i dont care about price.. $30k mustang has a motor offering 30% MORE power for 1/2 the price..



    Isn't the Porsche motor a piece of junk though since it gains less with bolt ons than the S65? Why do you think the S65 gains more? Which one do you think is higher strung? Explain it to me, please.

    please explain which one delivers more ? again, your trying to justify WHY IT DOESNT deliver (s65). why would i call it junk, it delivers more than the S65, with the same displacement, and less cylinders, right? so even detuned, and catted, the gt3 would make more than the s65..

    Of course you can make more power NA with the BMW eight cylinder. How much do you want to spend? Do you want the M3 to cost $150k?

    price? whoa buddy, you brought it up, i dont care about price.. $30k mustang has a motor offering 30% MORE power for 1/2 the price.

    I'm sorry, you were just talking about bolt ons. Apparently the GT3 is a piece of junk because you can't add any power to it.

    the gt3 is potent as it stand, and let me again quote myself to answer the same comment constructed differently:
    please explain which one delivers more ? again, your trying to justify WHY IT DOESNT deliver (s65). why would i call it junk, it delivers more than the S65, with the same displacement, and less cylinders, right? so even detuned, and catted, the gt3 would make more than the s65..

    What does the BMW race V8 make? Apparently enough that Porsche had to complain about it because BMW is the one winning in racing with the V8. If you want the more powerful motor, BMW can deliver it as they show in the highest level.

    what race? certainly not in the cars they actually sell..

    Falls short in NA power? Failure? You seriously look stupid.

    failure.


    The C63 AMG came out 10 years ago? The RS4 and RS5 came out 10 years ago? Last I checked the RS5 just came out and while rated at 450 horsepower the older M3 is still faster.

    faster? faster than what? none of the cars i brought up.. an n/a m3 is faster than what? how is it faster than those cars? oh thats right.. the chassis..because it weighs less, and has a better trans.. certainly not because it makes more power.. like you would expect when buying a V8.. why do we not want S5's..? certainly its a better car than the M.. but oh, thats right, the motor is garbage.. the only V8 thats WORSE than an S65..


    You don't just a motor solely based on acceleration ability. You sound like some retard redneck at the dragstrip.
    no, you rate it on its #1 job, to make power. S65 doesnt make enough. i dont care what fancy way you describe it. it doesnt do what it supposed to do.. why have a an 8, when apparantly a 6 can do it better..

    Once again, you are basing everything on power and nothing on design and delivery.
    everything on delivery, its does not deliver. a chassis masks its lack of power producing ability in N/A form.


    What are you even struggling to string together here? What are you trying to say? Did you mean to say "motor's failures" or what?



    Ya BMW races their V8 and wins. So I have no clue what you are talking about and you aren't making coherent points or sense. You aren't good at this.

    they race the S65, and win? ohhh.. they dont.. ?
    f

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    0 out of 5 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No

    This post by LostMarine is hidden due to excessive negative ratings. Click expand to view the post.



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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
    You do know the S65 powered M3's have owned the Contiental Tires Series the last few years. The big displacement Boss 302R, Camero GS.R, etc needed competition adjustments to compete.

    Grand AM had to limit the revs on the S65. So the competition with 1-liter plus more displacement could have a chance. The M3's competition were getting their asses handed to them.

    Honestly it is astounding how some don't get how good the S65 has been in competition (where it matters). Not some jerk off racing on the street, having a dick measuring contest.

    lol, so, your saying its all about the motor and not the chassis then? interesting.. just imagine what the s65 could do with more power!! oh wow, what a suprise here.. the overal chassis of an M car is excellent, but the power from a v8 is ridiculously laughable..

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
    And yes the new FI M's are going into to limp mode. The new M5 did it in two separate tests.
    The E60 M5 went into limp mode in Top Gear track. My M3 and M6(E63) both have experienced that as well, mostly because of the overheated differential. My point is all cars can go into limp mode, it doesn't happen just because of the overheated engines.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
    This is a very accurate comment... The other mess up on BMWs part was making the N54 to good for a Non-M car. Once an N54 was tuned; they realized they f-d up and created the N55 for future cars and also popped the N54 in an M car (1M).
    You guys make it sound like every single engine coming from BMW should have huge untapped potential. The fact is, BMW doesn't give a $#@! about aftermarket or tuning potential. This is true for 99% of the buyers as well. Almost all of the buyers buy cars to enjoy them in stock form. If it wasn't the case, we all would drive LSx powered cars, No?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Irishace Click here to enlarge
    Looks aside, its a pretty interesting option as well. 100kg lighter is nothing to sneeze at and with that chasis it should be a real blast to drive.
    The beauty of roadster-based coupes. Mostly the have strong chassis. The Z4 with some suspension/brake mods can be a very fun little car.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    What do you mean get out of here with comparing FI motors in acceleration? What, should I compare them in the quality of aluminum used? Gearing? Suspension? This thread went to shiite my friend Click here to enlarge
    lol

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    4 out of 7 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    This thread has burned, derailed, and crashed with no survivors. However, I'd like to add some sense to this thread.

    To start off, LM sounds like a confused M3 owner, Sticky is holding on to the dear S65, and every one else is just side line players waiting to get into the game and the OP has left the building. Just what I see.

    Now to LM. The S65 isn't the fire breathing 600 rwhp capable V8 you're expecting it to be. It's not. The 4.0 V8 is supposed to be an avid road course and track star in a potent and stable chassis. That's what the M3 is all about. It's simply a track car bred for the streets as BMW has put it. On a road course or on a real race track the high rpm usage is what makes it a capable engine. It doesn't need 400hp and 400 ft lbs of torque to get around itself on a race track. It's proven itself in racing many many times. BMW delivers the S65 to our driveways expecting us to drive this car on a racetrack and put it to use as M envisioned we would. It's the reason it has a superior suspension, braking, and chassis setup to the regular 3 series. It's the reason it comes standard with a wide set of PS2's and not the runflats of the 335i or 135i. The S65 is excellent at what it was designed to do.

    I don't know about you, but at the end of my driveway isn't a race track and nor is there a bolt on C5/6 Z06 waiting for me to do some rolls. So all this talk about it's a slow car, it's a terrible engine, blah blah is useless because how often can you really use that power? This is becoming youtube racing at its absolute best. Focusing merely on hp gains for the aftermarket. If you really want more NA power, then buy a Boss 302 or buy a used cheap C6. At this point why even own your M3 if you're not truly satisfied? I think a lot of people get so wrapped up around numbers and figures these days it's truly disheartening. You don't need 400, 500, or even 600 hp when the speed limit is 65 mph and max 85 mph in some states. There's no need. How often do you drive your car to a meet and run a bolt on C6? Or a 120 mph+ car for that matter? A 120 mph car is incredibly fast for the street. Hell, my 104 mph car is quick enough. On a daily basis there's not much that can really keep up unless I go looking for trouble.

    Sticky, I'm with you on the S65 being far superior than the N54. There is a reason BMW has not used it in the Z4 GT3. There's a reason BMW used the P65B40 in the E46 M3 GTR and not the S54. There's a reason for everything. It's simply a better engine for the uses and purposes they are intending it for. The S65 in terms of endurance racing reliabilty has proven itself time and time again. Now, BMW has also had a lot more time with NA engines. BMW has had 25+ years of developing racing NA engines. There's only a matter of time before we do see the next gen N54/55 in a racing car. It's more then likely what's taking so long with the next M3/4. Perfecting the engine. The F10 M5/6 S63TU I feel is not up to par to when considering track days. The S63TU I think needed more focus on cooling before it should have been released. These problems will begin to arrise and BMW will pull through with a resolution. I expect the resolution to more than likely incorporate either larger intercoolers or something more in line with the cooling system itself. Only time will tell.

    All of these engines have their strenghts and weaknesses. All of them do. Every last one of them is an excellent choice and you cannot go wrong with either. HP numbers don't tell you anything. Torque figures do not tell you anything. The only thing that will tell you anything is seat of the pants. How does that car make you feel when you're driving it. OP, get out there and drive in these cars. Drive or ride in a FBO 335i. Ride in a supercharged E46 M3 or E92 M3. Do it then report back with your findings. Tell us how you feel about each.

    Lastly, there's a true problem in the online BMW community. Too many twin turbo charged nuthuggers, too many old timers, and too many people unwilling to face the fact that yes a FBO 335i is faster than a FBO M3. OMGWTFBBQ!!!! Who cares truly. Who the hell cares. The E92 M3 is still the better car. If it wasn't, why does it cost more? Why is it slotted above the 335i? For those arguing for the sake of hp figures. Shut up. It's useless. Yes the 335i is faster than the E46 M3. Who cares. The E46 M3 does things the 335i can't and vice versa. All are excellent choices and have their own strenghts and weaknesses. Once you understand that; then you will see this thread and its entirety was pointless.
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  17. #242
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    You don't need 400, 500, or even 600 hp when the speed limit is 65 mph and max 85 mph in some states. There's no need.
    Stopped reading at this point. You're on a tuner forum. Of course no one needs all that power. Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge
    471whp on E85

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    The design of the P65 is based on the S65,which does not mean it shares any important parts with the road engine.

    Like a GT3R or RSR engine has its specific parts marked with an R in the part numbers that are not the same parts as on road engines ...

    And a GT4 is not a real race car.It is a gentleman's club sport car as almost all parts are road car parts.

    Entertaining discussion,non the lessClick here to enlarge

    To the OP,if you want a road legal track toy to have fun with and improve your driving skills,take an E46 M3,strip it out,get proper suspension and brake setup.
    Then start modifying the engine.

    Start with a good setup car and improve the car along with improving your driving skills.

    I would stay n/a.

    For the E46 M3 is PLENTY of quality reasonable priced track parts around.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    They blew it with the S65. How?

    What competition caught them?

    ALL CARS HAVE GOTTEN FASTER.

    Acceleration is not the predominant factor in a motor's design or evaluation of quality.
    They blew it bc they failed to stay ahead of the pack and be the benchmark, like every other m3 has been before it. With the s65, although it's a brilliant motor, it's not what that e9x chassis needed to separate it from the pack. Again this is my opinion.... And I'm not saying the s65 is a bad motor in design, it just fails in the current chassis in which its built. IMO the s65 would have been great for the e46 m3.
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    ESS 6XX kit

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
    You do know the S65 powered M3's have owned the Contiental Tires Series the last few years. The big displacement Boss 302R, Camero GS.R, etc needed competition adjustments to compete.

    Grand AM had to limit the revs on the S65. So the competition with 1-liter plus more displacement could have a chance. The M3's competition were getting their asses handed to them.

    Honestly it is astounding how some don't get how good the S65 has been in competition (where it matters). Not some jerk off racing on the street, having a dick measuring contest.
    That's great, I'm not disagreeing with you here. When I go to the local dealer and pay $65k for my m3 am I getting that car? NO. Bmw's race cars are much different than thier street cars in fact, car and driver did a nice write up about just how different they are a year or so ago. The argument I'm making (and others in this thread) is, as a street car, the current m3 with the s65 isn't very
    impressive.

    Make sure you yell out the window to the guy in the tuned 335 pulling you on the highway that if you had bmw's lemans m3 race car, it would be a different story.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Of course he doesn't know that.



    You're talking to people who think the deciding factor is bolt on mods and acceleration. It's such a narrow minded interpretation there's almost no point in discussion because they can't even see the bigger picture.
    Um I do know this, I actually watch those races and cheer on the m3's. Again, those cars are very different than the street version I can buy that gets smoked by a fbo 335.

    Why are we comparing race cars to street cars anyway?

    Here is a nice article on the racing version of bmw's m3 that weighs 800 lbs less than the street car and hits the 1/4 at 11 seconds flat.... Where can I order that? Oh I can't, again I have been referring to the street car, stop discussing race cars.

    I can buy a ford fiesta and tell everyone how fast it is in the wrc and how my motor is used in racing .... http://www.autoblog.com/2011/02/01/f...f-season-debu/

    Gimme a break.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...r-feature-test
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    ESS 6XX kit

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    NA is always easier to manage on road courses though you can do it with a turbo car that has extra cooling capacity and so on. All things being equal and with road courses in mind I would get the E90/2 M3 and have a ball. DCT or 6spd is a win either way IMO. I wouldnt throw the blower on it, I would go full bolt on with coilovers & wheels/tires it would be damn fast. If you insist on boost I would do the E46 with the A&A blower
    We stay swingin...
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ammonia Click here to enlarge
    Stopped reading at this point. You're on a tuner forum. Of course no one needs all that power. Click here to enlarge
    Realistically, where can you legally go above 100 mph in the US? If you have a car with a bizillion hp can you really have fun on a street with it?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    That's great, I'm not disagreeing with you here. When I go to the local dealer and pay $65k for my m3 am I getting that car? NO. Bmw's race cars are much different than thier street cars in fact, car and driver did a nice write up about just how different they are a year or so ago. The argument I'm making (and others in this thread) is, as a street car, the current m3 with the s65 isn't very
    impressive.

    Make sure you yell out the window to the guy in the tuned 335 pulling you on the highway that if you had bmw's lemans m3 race car, it would be a different story.
    Since you think your 335i is superior to the E92 M3 and love using mag times and reviews. Let's review the lightning lap times by the 335i and M3. The same 2 cars you can buy right out of the dealership. Oh you mean a tune and some bolt ons will help you drop 5 seconds on that track? At least keep to what the cars intended purposes are.

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  24. #249
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    Um I do know this, I actually watch those races and cheer on the m3's. Again, those cars are very different than the street version I can buy that gets smoked by a fbo 335.

    Why are we comparing race cars to street cars anyway?

    Here is a nice article on the racing version of bmw's m3 that weighs 800 lbs less than the street car and hits the 1/4 at 11 seconds flat.... Where can I order that? Oh I can't, again I have been referring to the street car, stop discussing race cars.

    I can buy a ford fiesta and tell everyone how fast it is in the wrc and how my motor is used in racing .... http://www.autoblog.com/2011/02/01/f...f-season-debu/

    Gimme a break.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...r-feature-test

    Damn bobs, I agree with you 100%... As a road course car, it is great. As a street car it gets blown away by N54 powered cars in almost everything including modability, mpgs, price and suprisingly weight. To the guy who said; BMW doesnt care about modded cars, that is bull$#@!. When it cuts into their bottom line when many owners say that a 335i is good enough for me on the street especially when I can mod it... they get very pissed. This is why the 1M was made and the N54 was replaced... Once again this was never an issue w previous generations.
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

  25. #250
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
    Realistically, where can you legally go above 100 mph in the US? If you have a car with a bizillion hp can you really have fun on a street with it?



    Since you think your 335i is superior to the E92 M3 and love using mag times and reviews. Let's review the lightning lap times by the 335i and M3. The same 2 cars you can buy right out of the dealership. Oh you mean a tune and some bolt ons will help you drop 5 seconds on that track? At least keep to what the cars intended purposes are.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/features...to-2011-page-8
    I don't love quoting magazine times, but I did to illustrate the huge difference in the m3 race car. I know a m3 stock will take a 335 on the track. Guess what, it will on the street too. But we don't keep our cars stock. So your telling me stuff I already know.
    Click here to enlarge
    ESS 6XX kit

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