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  1. #176
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    It's cause the uneducated fanbase thinks N54 = modern/euro 2JZ.
    And it isn't. I keep telling people this but they don't want to hear it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    All four O2's post turbo and stock vacuum actuated wastegates will go a long way to avoiding the tuning headaches it seems all the singles are plagued with. This is honestly why I am a little surprised people are just pumping out singles with no real way to tune them properly as of yet.
    Would you mind expounding on the current single turbo tuning issues?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    And it isn't. I keep telling people this but they don't want to hear it.
    But can you really say that?? I mean, the limit of the stock internals/compression still has not been reached and we're approaching 700 WHP. At this point, it seems like once a viable tuning option for Single Turbo N54s or the GTX Turbos that Vargas will be releasing, we'll really see what the stock motor is capable of. The 2JZ stock motor is good until you hit the 900 WHP range, so the N54 isn't THAT far off. The real problem I see is getting another 1/2 L of displacement (standard 1,500+ WHP 2JZs are 3.4L Race Blocks)
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  4. #179
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    But can you really say that?? I mean, the limit of the stock internals/compression still has not been reached and we're approaching 700 WHP. At this point, it seems like once a viable tuning option for Single Turbo N54s or the GTX Turbos that Vargas will be releasing, we'll really see what the stock motor is capable of. The 2JZ stock motor is good until you hit the 900 WHP range, so the N54 isn't THAT far off. The real problem I see is getting another 1/2 L of displacement (standard 1,500+ WHP 2JZs are 3.4L Race Blocks)
    The 2JZ is a port injected iron block motor. It's a completely different ballgame.

  5. #180
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    Sticky, I honestly do not know what the exact tuning issues with the singles are, but they are obviously there. A very well made kit has been on the market for over a year and still has issues, it has to stem from trying to keep the DME happy without the correct O2 placements / numbers, and running boost actuated gates when it is looking for vacuum as a place to start. I see all these people making more hardware, more hardware of the exact same thing, but no one is addressing the tuning issues every single is going to deal with. If we wanted to make a single kit, and slap it on the motor it would have been done in a month. With that said, Stage 3 is literally done. Picking it up tomorrow and it will be installed this week. Dzenno insists on flying out to tune it for me, meaning it will be in good hands. So we should know if keeping the DME happy with those couple things helps. As far as every platform making big power runs a standalone. This I agree with to an extent. They really needed it because their engine control was not sophisticated enough to do what needed to be done to make the big power. I think the N54's DME is, but no one has full control over it yet, plus we still have the fuel issues. I think a standalone will be ready soon and will open up a lot of doors, but its not going to do away with the DI, its just going to add PI to the mix. We should see some good progress this year. Dzenno has a set of ultra secret prototypes on his car right now that could really change the game. We shall see, trying to push forward progress as much as possible. 2013 for the win

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The 2JZ is a port injected iron block motor. It's a completely different ballgame.
    The N54 could be converted to PI easily with a new manifold & iron sleeves could offer some reinforcement, but it's all speculation until we get to that point.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    The N54 could be converted to PI easily with a new manifold & iron sleeves could offer some reinforcement, but it's all speculation until we get to that point.
    What are we trying to go backwards here? Why on earth would you ditch DI for PI only? There is a reason EVERYONE is going DI on their high end performance platforms. It works, PI would be for additional fueling only in my book.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo Click here to enlarge
    That maybe but hardware is hardware and they have a fantastic hardware solution that is original and even though all others will have much to learn from it... it is doubtful they will be able to improve upon it. And besides, who knows how many more years would've went by before someone had the mind to think of yet alone balls enough to try the pre O2 solution? They did, and for that they deserve a little respect IMO.

    The hype you speak of was calculated by airflow potential of the unit, but getting all of that to effectively hit the payment on this platform is 1/8th the battle; there is much to overcome. It is what it is.
    I usually agree with your statements but don't really think so here. The pre turbo O2 solution was less of a solution and more of a patch because they couldn't do anything else. Their hardware solution is nice, I agree, but you pay out the Ying Yang for it. Nothing new here. There will always be expensive nice things, its when people bring an affordable and nice product out that it deserves praise. They haven't done that and they haven't delivered on much of their claims. Being the first means nothing if you are releasing what is essentially a pre-beta. There have been so many problems, unique to them or with this style of setup otherwise, that even though it launched a year ago, we still don't see open adoption of the product or the ST in general. That to me screams failure.

    This platform up until this point has been pretty slow with development. I think its going to pick up once people move away from political and short term business based decision making towards working on what makes sense and actually doing it instead of just talking about it. The O2 issue will go the same way as the LPFP and the HPFP. An easy no brainer solution will pop up. Someone just has to do it and I think there are more hands on "open source" vendors to do just that this year.

    Btw, I don't think an ST makes a lot of sense personally unless you want to build a dyno queen, which also doesn't make sense since its way easier to do that with other platforms.
    Last edited by rudypoochris; 02-03-2013 at 02:29 AM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    What are we trying to go backwards here? Why on earth would you ditch DI for PI only? There is a reason EVERYONE is going DI on their high end performance platforms. It works, PI would be for additional fueling only in my book.
    Agreed. I cringe every time someone suggests ditching DI. The only time you want to go with PI added in is if you are doing over 9K or so RPMs and don't have a means of getting the fuel in in time. The new Corvette uses DI.

  10. #185
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    What are we trying to go backwards here? Why on earth would you ditch DI for PI only? There is a reason EVERYONE is going DI on their high end performance platforms. It works, PI would be for additional fueling only in my book.
    Click here to enlarge Just responding to Sticky's comment about the 2JZ vs. N54

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    I don't think an ST makes a lot of sense personally unless you want to build a dyno queen
    It all comes down to what your goals are & proper turbo sizing. IF you want something that's fun & street friendly, you sacrifice HP. If you want the Dyno HP Gold Medal & forum bragging rights, you'll obviously have tons of lag, a narrow power band & something that sucks driving on the street.
    Last edited by benzy89; 02-03-2013 at 02:38 AM.
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  11. #186
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge Just responding to Sticky's comment about the 2JZ vs. N54
    His comment was just saying, the 2JZ is an iron block PI, the N54 is a aluminum block DI platform. Converting it to PI and dropping the compression will make it handle much more boost easily, true, but then we get the slow spooling characteristics of the engines like the 2JZ, exactly what we are happy to not have to deal with having a high compression, boost friendly DI platform. Ditching DI is not the way to go

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    And it isn't. I keep telling people this but they don't want to hear it.
    It could be eventually, but why the hell would you want it to be? Making huge HP/liter is like a dick measuring contest. Sure you have 1000hp, but you can never put it down and it only happens for 2000rpm at some revs you basically never turn. I rather have a 650hp car with good response than an 800hp car that's peaky as hell. Why? Because the 650hp car is faster in real life and the majority of racing situations (unless 100mph roll races are the new thing).

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Just responding to Sticky's comment about the 2JZ vs. N54


    It all comes down to what your goals are & proper turbo sizing. IF you want something that's fun & street friendly, you sacrifice HP. If you want the Dyno HP Gold Medal & forum bragging rights, you'll obviously have tons of lag, a narrow power band & something that sucks driving on the street.
    This again is another huge reason we went with twins. People want these cars for the street. These are not people who are just taking their car to the track one 1/4 mile at a time. With properly sized new technology twins such as the GTX's and new EFR's you get the quicker spooling with the very high flow potential. Its basically a win win, BUT I do think a TS single either GTX or EFR will also be a very attractive option as well. And a lot less hardware to deal with.

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    I really don't think the big turbo singles will have a huge advantage at the strip to be honest. Thank the IRS and small displacement. Need to get load and hold load on those large turbos to make that power on this displacement. The lack of traction is an issue for generating that load and the powerband just makes it worse since when you do have traction you don't have power. I think twins and strategies that bring spool down will be the way to go. More work on antilag would be nice. The R&D costs don't pencil when people don't understand how 700hp can be faster than 800hp.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    I really don't think the big turbo singles will have a huge advantage at the strip to be honest. Thank the IRS and small displacement. More work on antilag would be nice. The R&D costs don't pencil when people don't understand how 700hp can be faster than 800hp.
    I kinda have to disagree, figure out the AT situation and throw a big single on one and be able to get it spooled at the line. It would blow away twins, but it would be terrible on the street. We are trying to build a kit people want to live with on the street. Thats our goal anyways. We will see how we did soon

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    I kinda have to disagree, figure out the AT situation and throw a big single on one and be able to get it spooled at the line. It would blow away twins, but it would be terrible on the street. We are trying to build a kit people want to live with on the street. Thats our goal anyways. We will see how we did soon
    I would agree if you can hook. I am not convinced this platform will ever be able to hook the kind of power figures people are talking about with this suspension and the max tire size of 285mm or so. If we were talking about other platforms or AWD then I definitely agree, but I am not so sure here. In either case between larger twins and a really large single, I don't think you will be seeing large differences in strip performance, but you will see a lot of difference on the street. I like the way you guys are headed.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Sticky, I honestly do not know what the exact tuning issues with the singles are, but they are obviously there. A very well made kit has been on the market for over a year and still has issues, it has to stem from trying to keep the DME happy without the correct O2 placements / numbers, and running boost actuated gates when it is looking for vacuum as a place to start. I see all these people making more hardware, more hardware of the exact same thing, but no one is addressing the tuning issues every single is going to deal with. If we wanted to make a single kit, and slap it on the motor it would have been done in a month. With that said, Stage 3 is literally done. Picking it up tomorrow and it will be installed this week. Dzenno insists on flying out to tune it for me, meaning it will be in good hands. So we should know if keeping the DME happy with those couple things helps. As far as every platform making big power runs a standalone. This I agree with to an extent. They really needed it because their engine control was not sophisticated enough to do what needed to be done to make the big power. I think the N54's DME is, but no one has full control over it yet, plus we still have the fuel issues. I think a standalone will be ready soon and will open up a lot of doors, but its not going to do away with the DI, its just going to add PI to the mix. We should see some good progress this year. Dzenno has a set of ultra secret prototypes on his car right now that could really change the game. We shall see, trying to push forward progress as much as possible. 2013 for the win
    I'm not going to ask for details, but are these your prototypes or prototypes from another company?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Eleventeen Click here to enlarge
    I'm not going to ask for details, but are these your prototypes or prototypes from another company?
    Ours

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Ours
    Nice. I'm excited to see how this turns out.

    I also look forward to seeing how the OP's kit turns out.

  20. #195
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    Wow this is all so awesome. Hope there is some 135i love in all this.
    2011 335is DCT, JB4 + MHD BEF, stage 2 LPFP, e50 + 50/50 meth, FBO, MT ET Streets when needed


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    N54 is not 2JZ. Yes, similar in power, but the old engine loses and shows its age in spool, efficiency and technology.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    N54 is not 2JZ. Yes, similar in power, but the old engine loses and shows its age in spool, efficiency and technology.
    I don't think that argument can be made until we're hitting 1,500 WHP. Maybe if you take a 650 WHP 2JZ & compare it to a 650 WHP N54, the N54 clearly offers better area under the curve, turbo spool & power delivery. It's been repeated several times, but until a legitimate engine management system comes along, the full potential of the N54 isn't going to be revealed.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    N54 is not 2JZ. Yes, similar in power, but the old engine loses and shows its age in spool, efficiency and technology.
    ????

    Sure DI has its advantages and the N54 is more modern but as was already said... this car hasn't reliably made 700 WHP yet much less double that. The car it sits in hasn't reliably ran 10's yet, the Supra hasn't reliably ran 6's yet lololol. Let's be serious here for a second.
    2007 335i (100% stock with mods)

    N54 is not a German 2JZ lol

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    2JZ engine family was rated at 200-320bhp. Sure you can change all the parts in the engine, but it is not really 2JZ any more. In a 800whp engine there are no 2JZ internals in there.

    We can custom upgraded N54 rods, pistons, head, crank, valves, turbos... to the point in which there is no original part left. It becomes rather theoretical which of fully modified engines would be better. Neither of them is 2JZ or N54.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    2JZ engine family was rated at 200-320bhp. Sure you can change all the parts in the engine, but it is not really 2JZ any more. In a 800whp engine there are no 2JZ internals in there.

    We can custom upgraded N54 rods, pistons, head, crank, valves, turbos... to the point in which there is no original part left. It becomes rather theoretical which of fully modified engines would be better. Neither of them is 2JZ or N54.
    I hear what you're saying, but any high HP project (Supra, 135/335, 996/997, GTRs, TT-G's, HPF M3s, etc etc) has a starting point. The platform & the original motor design is still there. While everything but the actual block (which might even have increased displacement/cylinder sleeves, etc) might be aftermarket components (cams, pistons, rods, turbos...), it's still, at it's heart, a 2JZ, N54 or whatever motor. While it might not share 96% of the parts it came with from the factory, it would've never been possible to take it into the 1,000+ WHP range without the original, unaltered OEM motor that was incredibly responsive to basic bolt-ons & tune changes. Do you think the Supra or GTR would've become globally recognized cars if these cars required a heavy (and pricey) overhaul before creating horsepower numbers worth acknowledging? No, because these cars are so responsive to mods & still retain the OEM design (albeit with significantly higher strength and/or redesigned components that yield a higher efficiency), they still at their heart retain the OEM design + are only capable of taking it to the inherent OEM limits.

    I mean, with your kind of mentality why bother even modifying the car at all?? By just changing the software your N54 no longer operates & "resembles" a 135/335 that came off a BMW showroom floor.
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