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  1. #26
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    Dzenno why do you say e85 blends get you in trouble there?

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    Sorry, that was confusing, reworded it...meant to indicate that E85 will help keep engine temps down as it burns cooler than pump gas
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  3. #28
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    Ok understood. That was the impression i was given about e85 cooling effects. Thanks for clarifying

  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    Why would you change out the thermostat and basically mess with bmw's intended operating temp? Don't you guys think BMW intended the n54/n55 to run at a certain temp? IMO you should beef up your cooling to maintain the normal operating temp under harsher driving conditions but changing the thermostat to run cooler is not necessary.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Agree. You want more cooling capacity while preserving the nature of the system BMW intended for this car, i.e. preserve oil pressure and optimal oil operating temps while increasing cooling capacity through larger oil coolers with larger surface area exposed to better directed air flow. That's why I highly recommend the ER twin oil cooler setup for all out and part of the reason we don't carry others at the moment as I've seen it personally where adding just one oil cooler or just a lower temp thermostat wouldn't come even close to solving the issue in 20 minute mid-summer road course sessions and our ambients up here aren't even that high as some other places.

    If you're a road course junkie and want this issue out of the way there's really not 15 ways about it. You need more oil coolers with proper ducting for a problem solved and done with.
    If regarding the overall operating temp, I agree. Referencing the NG6 Tech Engine Management doc posted in the stickies, our cars DME targets 104c/219f in normal operation, raising/lowering this target for either economy or power development; It manages this by modulating the water pump/coolant flow through the engine. Since the OP didn't mention upgrading the cooling system ala an upgraded or aux radiator, I feel that having a lower temp oil thermostat along with a bigger/more cores can only help in achieving those overall operating temps.

    I do have to correct my earlier statement regarding the stock thermostat, it appears that it opens at an even higher temp, 230deg, and doesn't fully open until ~250deg. Pulling the spring from the thermostat there should be a "110" stamped/printed on it, standing for 110deg C. In normal driving this is fine, problem is it's apparent that the stock t-stat isn't open and flowing enough at 230-240deg to the coolers for them to keep the temps at that during an all out beating. Sure this can be offset by running coolers with much more surface area/volume, but IMO that's just a bandaid for not flowing enough in the first place.

    I mentioned the 180deg t-stat, thought about it some more and it's probably too cool for our car; more ideal would be something like the mocal 200deg t-stat or perhaps something that's fully open around 210-220; coupled with sufficiently sized core it should keep temps in the ideal range regardless of the situation. ER's data shows that their setup is pretty damn efficient keeping within <10deg of the fully open point @ 250deg, why not give it full flow @ 220?

  5. #30
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    I still don't get whats wrong with 250F? Why do people think that's too hot, don't you think BMW would have designed the engine to run at a different temperature if it was meant to? It isn't a "performance mod" to lower operating temp. You want to keep the engine in normal operating temp range which is 240-255 degrees or so. Until someone shows something otherwise, I am not bothering changing the thermostat.

  6. #31
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    I would never try to run the system outside the temp range BMW intended for the car, neither much lower or much higher. My personal preference is to keep the temps right around where they are from the factory in all possible situations. If you end up pushing the car outside OEM specs that wouldn't all of a sudden mean you need cooler oil temps than factory spec. To me it just means you need more oil cooling capacity to keep the temps where they were intended to be had the system not been modified far beyond factory specs.
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  7. #32
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    My point was to shoot for temps at the bottom of the normal range, not go significantly lower than it. Nothing wrong with 250f, just more overhead safety margin the lower in the normal range you go. Perhaps an overkill way of looking at it but for the same price and effort as other options, why not?

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    I would never try to run the system outside the temp range BMW intended for the car, neither much lower or much higher. My personal preference is to keep the temps right around where they are from the factory in all possible situations. If you end up pushing the car outside OEM specs that wouldn't all of a sudden mean you need cooler oil temps than factory spec. To me it just means you need more oil cooling capacity to keep the temps where they were intended to be had the system not been modified far beyond factory specs.
    BINGO! And that's EXACTLY what BMW were trying to do with their Performance Power Pack: Add cooling capacity, not lower the engine temps.

    The N54/N55 ECUs account for different engine temps for different modes of operation. For an example, to achieve maximum efficiency during cruising, it is beneficial to actually raise the engine block temperature very close to knock conditions. I routinely see my coolant temperature during cruising to be in the 220-240F range, regardless of the season.

    For making power (in short bursts, not sustained), it is more beneficial to cool the engine down. So, when you go WOT, the coolant temp actually drops to below 200F. The coolant temp starts to rise as the turbos begin to inject a lot of heat in the system and the cooling capacity is exceeded. ...and we all know its worse for the AT guys since the tranny is cooled with the same coolant.
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  9. #34
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    Stett probably has the most data from the other forum. AR doesnt work on the track.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by stangorang Click here to enlarge
    AR doesnt work on the track.
    Why not?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Why not?
    Plenty of people have still been able to achieve an oil temp induced limp mode on a track with the AR cooler. Only the Stett and ER coolers seem to function on a track in that nobody (that I know of) has reported an oil temp induced limp mode with those coolers. The AR cooler just sits in front of the radiator while the other two are in the stock oil cooler location.

    The link below was compiled by the other forum showing some of the track results with various oil coolers. The data is limited but the best we have.

    http://i.imgur.com/1NxYx.jpg
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    Last edited by stangorang; 01-05-2013 at 11:28 AM.

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by stangorang Click here to enlarge
    Plenty of people have still been able to achieve an oil temp induced limp mode on a track with the AR cooler. Only the Stett and ER coolers seem to function on a track in that nobody (that I know of) has reported an oil temp induced limp mode with those coolers. The AR cooler just sits in front of the radiator while the other two are in the stock oil cooler location.
    So you think it is the location that that is the vital factor?

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    So you think it is the location that that is the vital factor?
    Size and location. The stock cooler is in a good location but does not have the size to keep up on a track even if you improve the air flow.

  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by stangorang Click here to enlarge
    Size and location. The stock cooler is in a good location but does not have the size to keep up on a track even if you improve the air flow.
    Interesting, ok.

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    The limp modes you see on that chart with Stett oil coolers were likely not related to oil temps. One was clearly a misfire the other was likely water temp induced limp mode given the coolant temp and the fact the person has an AT.

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    Another thing to consider is that the BMW Performance bumper offers much improved airflow to the oil cooler, the brakes and the intercooler. I can attest to that because I've had both and I've tracked my car on the same track, during the similar weather conditions with the same engine mods, but with different bumpers. I think that airflow is very very important when it comes to cooling in our cars.

    I mean, there are 335i's out there that have the stock oil coolers and the air intake for the oil cooler is completely blocked because BMW installed a solid grill instead of a perforated one. ...and even the perforated lower grill still does not deliver enough because of the fog light being in the way.

    When I smashed my front end, I insisted on upgrading to the BMW Performance bumper. No fog lights to block the air, the air dams for the oil cooler are three times as big and designed in such a way that a lot more air hits the stock oil cooler. The air channels for the brakes are also redesigned. Finally, the bumper features built in splitters for better stability.

    I have not done any mechanical modifications to improve the cooling on my car. With the BMW Performance bumper and the heater fan blowing on max, I am not able to induce limp mode due to overheating. My oil temps stay at 260F.

    I am sure if I switch to a different track and I myself become a better driver, things will change, but that will come in the future and there are other cooling options out there: better radiator, supplementary radiator from the PPK kit, etc etc.
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    0 out of 3 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Why not?
    You had to still push this issue, didn't you? Click here to enlarge

  18. #43
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    I understand that road course may be harder on the car but i have gone into limp mode my car more than once on the highway.
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

  19. #44
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    You had to still push this issue, didn't you? Click here to enlarge
    You mean ask a question to get a better understanding? Um ok.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by WDBi Click here to enlarge
    I understand that road course may be harder on the car but i have gone into limp mode my car more than once on the highway.
    Do you have the stock oil cooler? Do you have an AT?

  21. #46
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by stangorang Click here to enlarge
    Plenty of people have still been able to achieve an oil temp induced limp mode on a track with the AR cooler. Only the Stett and ER coolers seem to function on a track in that nobody (that I know of) has reported an oil temp induced limp mode with those coolers. The AR cooler just sits in front of the radiator while the other two are in the stock oil cooler location.

    The link below was compiled by the other forum showing some of the track results with various oil coolers. The data is limited but the best we have.

    http://i.imgur.com/1NxYx.jpg
    Any chance for headings on these columns? Interesting data.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by WDBi Click here to enlarge
    I understand that road course may be harder on the car but i have gone into limp mode my car more than once on the highway.
    It most likely wasn't due to heat. There are a zillion limp codes this car throws, so you have to pull your code.

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    The manual's advantage over the AT at the track, in terms of heat, is very overrated. The Auto is so much faster on the track than the manual. The extra heat from the trans hasn't really held me back, over all these years, and at various tracks. The primary problem was the oil temps.

  24. #49
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    My car has an oil cooler and yes it is an at
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    Any chance for headings on these columns? Interesting data.
    Sure.
    1) username
    2) track
    3) MT or AT
    4) Class (advanced, intermediaite, beginner, etc)
    5) User time
    6) Lap record for spec Miata
    7) Outside air temp
    8) Oil cooler type
    9) Max oil temp
    10) Heater on or off
    11) coolant type
    12) Max coolant temp
    13) Limp mode type

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