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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No

    RB Turbos Installed - Preliminary Review (dynos very soon)

    Hi,

    So...it was my turn to go the RB turbo route. I came to the conclusion that the only sane/safe method by which I can increase the power of my car is to get some larger turbos. I don't like methanol injection (although I do have a HFS-4 kit installed) and I don't like the e85 stuff because blending it and keeping count of what you have in the tank is just as messy as the methanol route. Not to mention I can't find e85 here Click here to enlarge

    I have quite a bit of experience with aftermarket stuff and from my experience, the more you stray from the OEM designs, the more problems you are likely to have. Rob Beck's design in which you keep everything mostly OEM is what appealed to me the most.

    My immediate goal is to increase the power on 98-100RON pump gas with no methanol compared to the max I got on stock turbos and the same fuel. I would like to have a daily driver car with significantly more kick than on stock turbos. However, this goal will change once the Spring will come, I will then pursue maximum power on 98RON + methanol.

    Installation

    The installation of N54 turbos (regardless of OEM or RBs) is difficult and took about 16 hours (just like BMW states). In fact, not really difficult but very time consuming, because in order to install them, you have to remove: downpipes, water pump, thermostat, cooling fan, engine cover, cabin filter and the plastic cown, turbo oil lines, turbo water lines, drain water, drain oil. And reverse everything after install.

    The RB turbos have what I consider an Achilles heel when it comes to the install: they are supplied with a threaded stud that holds the water lines in place. That stud has only 2-3 threads into the turbo, and if you tighten it a bit more than "lightly", you will strip the threads in the turbo (however, if coolant leaks because not enough tightening it can ignite and that's a really bad thing).Stripping the turbo thread is what happened in my case and I heard that it has happened several times until now. However, this is not really a problem, the installer welded the stud in place and we could resume the installation the next day. I would recommend Rob Beck to re-think this mechanism by pre-welding the stud on the turbo, or providing an aluminium or copper stud instead in order to not ruin the turbo threads but rather the stud, in case of over-tightening. I have to say that Rob Beck very kindly offered to replace the center core for free (I would only pay for shipping, of course) but being in Europe this is so much of a hassle and waste of money that I preferred to weld the stud in place.

    Road feel

    I do have a ProTuningFreaks map on order but it did not arrive yet, so I tried the RBs with the Stage 2+FMIC Aggressive pump gas/no meth map which I read that it somewhat works with the RBs, because on stock turbos the load targets are too high to be hit (by my car at least) anyway. What I can tell you that you can feel a significant "lightness" of the car already. There seems to be much more power compared to stock turbos. I did not go past 5000RPM but you can feel that these turbos have huge potential.

    The exhaust is a bit louder with the RBs, probably because the turbine opening is much larger. I am so glad I have non-droning BMW Performance exhaust Click here to enlarge

    There is no smoke whatsoever coming from the exhaust. Also, the start-up wastegate rattle that I was having with my stock turbos is now absent.

    Cabin feel

    I hear a faint whistle in the cabin with the RBs. This was not heard on stock turbos. The turbo whine with the windows open is significantly louder than with the stock turbos, even with my closed intakes. But I really like this, it gives the car more personality. However the turbo sound is not obnoxious, it's very acceptable.

    Lag

    *preliminary impressions* There is quite a bit of extra lag and non-linearity with the RBs, on this map I have used. But don't get me wrong, there is huge torque at low RPMs, *maybe* even more than before, but climb 700RPM up and you get a shove in the back with even more torque Click here to enlarge I like this, in a way. However, I will update the impressions once I have the chance to test the PTF map, maybe that is more linear.

    Dynos

    Coming in 3-4 days, depending on when my PTF maps are ready.
    Last edited by cstavaru; 11-11-2012 at 01:11 PM.

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    Interesting info, looking forward to further reports Click here to enlarge

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    Very nice, fair review. I believe the issue with lag you may be having could be due to the OTS mapping. How about posting up some datalogs?
    Click here to enlarge
    MOTIV750, MOTIV P-1000 PI, MOTIV/FUEL-IT! low pressure fuel system, AEM EMS/COBB AP, Aquamist HFS-3, ETS FMIC, SPEC stage 3+ clutch/SS flywheel, BC Racing coilovers and VMR wheels wrapped in Hankook RS3s.

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    You'll love them. If you get bored since you already have the AP throw a JB5 G5 ISO on along with the BMS flash. It's proving to be a solid RB setup.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    You'll love them. If you get bored since you already have the AP throw a JB5 G5 ISO on along with the BMS flash. It's proving to be a solid RB setup.
    I noticed the JB+Cobb results with RBs and they are nice, but I really think that Cobb alone can replicate these results (given a skilled tuner). I mean, what would keep a Cobb-only setup to run as good as a JB5 + Cobb setup ? I could never understand this.

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    I'm confused about your feedback abut turbo lag. I have not noticed any additional lag at all.
    M3.
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    Nice review need to see the dynos with the proper tune. May change your impressions a bit as well.

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    Very interested in RBs + COBB PTF results. This is probably going to be my next step.

    you already told me it's pump for now, but do you plan on getting a maps for meth as well?

    Could you also compare (Vdyno) RBs on pump vs the race map you were running on stock turbos?
    SOLD --'07 E90 335i, PTF COBB E50, HFS4, ER CP, ETS 7", AA DP, Vishnu Exhaust, DCI, ACT, Nitto Nt555

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by marv85 Click here to enlarge
    Very interested in RBs + COBB PTF results. This is probably going to be my next step.

    you already told me it's pump for now, but do you plan on getting a maps for meth as well?

    Could you also compare (Vdyno) RBs on pump vs the race map you were running on stock turbos?
    +1 I plan to run the same setup, COBB + RBs, no meth.

    Looking forward to the results of the custom tuning.
    Especially regarding the lag, as that's something I want to avoid on the racetrack!
    E92 335i SB / Black Leather / 6AT / Navi Prof / Sunroof / Active Steering
    Mods: Performance Seats / Performance Exhaust / RB Turbos / M3 CF Roof / Brembo GT BBK 355/345 / Rollcage / M3 Mirrors / Forge FMIC / QUAIFE LSD / Ohlins R&T / M3 Suspension Parts / Vorshlag Camberplates / Megan Toe Links / LeatherZ Gauges / Extended M3 DCT Paddles / ER Sports OC / AR OC / Aux Radiator / AR catted DP / COBB Pro-Tune
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    Starter street map sent Click here to enlarge
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    I noticed the JB+Cobb results with RBs and they are nice, but I really think that Cobb alone can replicate these results (given a skilled tuner). I mean, what would keep a Cobb-only setup to run as good as a JB5 + Cobb setup ? I could never understand this.
    Maybe with enough work. But certain things on the boost control end are a major pita on the flash only end. And you won't have all the in dash gauges, map switching on the fly, meth support, and other nifty features. I personally set my JB4 to show boost and advance in dash while at full throttle. From my perspective you're already in $5k or whatever it is so another $500 isn't going to break you and there are some nice benefits to be had.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    I like the in-dash gauges too, pretty slick for sure. Meth support though on a flash with the HFS-4 kit is truly flawless. Once setup, especially with a nice trunk mount kit where the pump/tank are next to each other (i.e. Howerton 2.2gal tank) is really sweet and eliminates any flow related issues that a lot of the local guys here had as well as myself with the WW tank setups (having to lose prime and reprime quite often, sometimes every day for some of them). It makes running meth less of a chore, at least it has for me and a few others that have made the switch.

    On the fly map switching is also a cool feature but switching a map on Cobb takes 45seconds if you're changing octane, filling up, so its really not that big of a deal at least not to me. Not like I go changing maps every 5 seconds but it is nice and I wouldn't mind having that either, why not.

    The key issue (if you can call it that) with any piggy+flash stack at the moment is the fact it takes over the CANBus and you're left with the datalogging from the piggy side which prevents the end user from seeing all 6 cylinders for ignition timing/corrections. This goes along with many other loggable parameters that are fairly important (e.g. AFR for both banks, short and long term fuel trims for both banks, wgdc for both banks, etc). I am not sure I understand why ignition timing logging across all 6 cylinders still isn't available as it seems to be possible to do. I recall Shiv pulling this off with the procede back in the beginning of this year I think when the discussion was going on but it wasn't brought out. Is there a reason why at least on your end Terry? Maybe lack of I/O on the board or? I'm sure many guys would love to see ignition across all 6 cylinders or well, at least those that may care to see it.

    Boost control with the piggies is definitely easier to dial in but to be honest its really not that hard with the flash either given we have starter maps with wgdc table setups for both stock and RB turbos. The advantage on the piggy side is its way more user friendly as in you can set your boost curve yourself, just set the boost level. With ATR/ATP, as an end user, you have to deal with a lot more complexity. However, that complexity is removed for the end user if you go with a pro tune (not necessarily one from us, any licensed pro tuner out there). With us the key difference is we're always around and won't charge our customers hourly rates or tell them to leave when/if any questions ever arise from our tuning.
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 11-12-2012 at 01:21 PM.
    Click here to enlarge

  13. #13
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by marv85 Click here to enlarge
    Very interested in RBs + COBB PTF results. This is probably going to be my next step.
    That's a very good combination. I'm running a PTF custom tune with the RBs right now and it's really good.

    Alpina_B3_Lux
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    I haven't spent any time on the 2-6 logging recently but it's definitely something I want to get to. It's apparently doable with a different set of data logging commands that I'm not familiar with at the moment.

    I'm sure flash only is fine but there are just so many nice little things. Like say reducing boost in 1st gear, getting a little creative with duty cycle during spoolup, disabling the TPMS code on race rims, auto learning, a shift light, etc, that you can do on the piggy end with minimal effort. If it was $1500 more or something I'd agree maybe it's not worth it. But for $500, it's a good tool to have in the tool box IMHO.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Like say reducing boost in 1st gear, getting a little creative with duty cycle during spoolup, disabling the TPMS code on race rims, auto learning, a shift light, etc, that you can do on the piggy end with minimal effort. If it was $1500 more or something I'd agree maybe it's not worth it. But for $500, it's a good tool to have in the tool box IMHO.
    Definitely, some really useful features there for sure and price isn't too bad at all.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux Click here to enlarge
    That's a very good combination. I'm running a PTF custom tune with the RBs right now and it's really good.

    Alpina_B3_Lux
    I'm running PTF now and couldn't be happier but my car is maxed, and RBs are my next logical step Click here to enlarge

    Weren't you running procede?

    Give us more details on your trim and tune! I know from your posts that you're enjoying your car Click here to enlarge
    SOLD --'07 E90 335i, PTF COBB E50, HFS4, ER CP, ETS 7", AA DP, Vishnu Exhaust, DCI, ACT, Nitto Nt555

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by marv85 Click here to enlarge
    I'm running PTF now and couldn't be happier but my car is maxed, and RBs are my next logical step Click here to enlarge

    Weren't you running procede?

    Give us more details on your trim and tune! I know from your posts that you're enjoying your car Click here to enlarge
    No, I've never used the PROcede although I have the newest version of it sitting in a box somewhere (I'll sell it soon). Dzenno has ProTuned the RBs for me which was not an easy process (and is not yet totally finished) but the result is indeed very good. 20.6psi max at 98 RON fuel, on the dyno a previous map with 19psi max got me 503hp / 718Nm, which is a delta of 70hp against the GIAC stage 2 flash on stock turbos I had previously. The car feels really strong, in the first three gears traction is now a problem (at least at higher revs).

    I can really recommend PTF, the interaction and communication was and is excellent, a real pleasure to work with them.

    I'll write a more detailed review when I find the time (which is hard to come by for me these days), but the combination of RBs plus PTF custom tune is a real winner.

    Alpina_B3_Lux
    Current: Audi R8 V10 2013 S-Tronic, daytona grey, carbon side blades, MTM tune, Michelin PSS tires, Capristo x-pipe
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    Gone: BMW 335i Individual (Öhlins, PFC brakes, RB turbos etc.)

    Gone: Alpina B3 E46 3,3

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux Click here to enlarge
    No, I've never used the PROcede although I have the newest version of it sitting in a box somewhere (I'll sell it soon). Dzenno has ProTuned the RBs for me which was not an easy process (and is not yet totally finished) but the result is indeed very good. 20.6psi max at 98 RON fuel, on the dyno a previous map with 19psi max got me 503hp / 718Nm, which is a delta of 70hp against the GIAC stage 2 flash on stock turbos I had previously. The car feels really strong, in the first three gears traction is now a problem (at least at higher revs).

    I can really recommend PTF, the interaction and communication was and is excellent, a real pleasure to work with them.

    I'll write a more detailed review when I find the time (which is hard to come by for me these days), but the combination of RBs plus PTF custom tune is a real winner.

    Alpina_B3_Lux
    What kind of dyno? @crank?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    What kind of dyno? @crank?
    I always go to the same MaHa 3000 dyno at the Nürburgring, which is also used for the classification of the GT cars in the 24h race.

    All figures are crank figures. Please note however that these are not comparable to US crank figures. This would probably equal to around 470whp as measured on a US dyno.

    Alpina_B3_Lux
    Current: Audi R8 V10 2013 S-Tronic, daytona grey, carbon side blades, MTM tune, Michelin PSS tires, Capristo x-pipe
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Definitely, some really useful features there for sure and price isn't too bad at all.
    Sorry to get OT here OP, but just interesting to ask, is it not possible for the COBB flash to hijack the gauges and do what the JB4 does? I personally Love the hijacking, on the fly map and other changes within seconds. Help me troubleshoot and change things on the fly within seconds is amazing for me. For me this is personally the seal the deal type thing im still with the JB4!
    ///M5 LCI
    "It's like the F10 is the 911 Turbo to the E60's GT3" -Pistonheads (M5 feature)

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    I have some good updates on my review:

    - I did my own ATR custom map (based on the Cobb Stage 2+FMIC Aggressive for stock turbos), I have completely re-written the WGDC table (this is mandatory on RBs), with boost levels starting from 18.5psi max to 14psi at 6500RPM. I have increased the load limits between 5000 and 7000RPM, with subtle timing changes too.

    - Results (98RON (93 octane US) pump gas, no methanol): +50whp Dynojet (Virtual Dyno for now, but it has been very very accurate for me in the past - I will follow with real Mustang dyno when all my maps are final)

    - The IATs are unbelievably low, thanks to the increased compressor wheel diameter of the RBs.

    PS: If anyone with RB turbos is interested in trying my RB pump gas map (93 octane US) please send me a PM and I would be happy to send it to you.

    Vdyno (my current map vs my best pump gas result before the RBs) as well as my log are attached (substract 14.77 from the boost levels to see actual boost).
    Attached Images Attached Images   

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    Nice, how about a screen shot of your WGDC tables?

    Now that you've got your "base map" ready turn on the meth and throw some boost and timing at it.
    Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    Nice, how about a screen shot of your WGDC tables?

    Now that you've got your "base map" ready turn on the meth and throw some boost and timing at it.
    Exactly Click here to enlarge Unfortunately, I don't think I can use more than 18.5psi of boost without some sort of special code from Cobb. But I don't even think it's needed right now. Of course, I can add boost on top but I'm not even sure it's ok. IAT's begin to climb at a higher rate in 4th gear (and it's cold outside), I think that RB's sweet spot is not at 20psi at redline, but more at like 15psi. Timing can be increased, though.

    WGDC Base table screenshot attached. I did not change the PID tables (yet) but I can see the need in some places.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by cstavaru; 11-21-2012 at 09:59 AM.

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    That pesky 1.28 bar boost cap lol
    On pump gas I think you're about dead on with the boost curve. Meth is almost certainly a little different story.

    I'm thinking a flat 18psi across the board is where it's at. You can probably make A LOT more torque running more than 18psi in the mids but that's just wear and tear on the drive line.
    Last edited by rader1; 11-21-2012 at 10:42 AM.
    Click here to enlarge
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    I would love to go RB and stay on pump. Meth is a hassle for me. This thread is great and if I can gain 50whp on pump with rb's over the stockers, it's worth it for sure. My stock turbos rattle on initial start up and I'm kinda maxed without going to meth.

    I like the way this thread is going...
    Click here to enlarge
    ESS 6XX kit

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