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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Love2xlr8 Click here to enlarge
    Thanks again guys.

    I want to FEEL a noticeable difference between Dinan S2 and something like a JB4 or Cobb. For those of you familiar with all of these in the real world tell me, is there a significant difference, especially in acceleration off the line? If I'm gonna put down $500+ I'd like to know I'm getting something for my money. I'm sure you can relate.
    Yes. Get a JB4 G5 and put some E85 in it. Even just the G5 alone you will get some more power.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Basically it will just be an OBD-II test. Awesome, right?
    That is seriously awesome. Means part of going Stage 3 Vargasturbos just got solved for me. I wonder if the OBD2 will pass though without cats?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    Yes. Get a JB4 G5 and put some E85 in it. Even just the G5 alone you will get some more power.
    What is the G5 part of JB4? I've been all over the Burger site and can't find anything on it.

    Thanks!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Love2xlr8 Click here to enlarge
    What is the G5 part of JB4? I've been all over the Burger site and can't find anything on it.

    Thanks!
    G4 is the older version of JB4 with hardware limiting of maximum boost to around 17psi. This protects the turbos.

    The G5 allows boost far beyond 16psi as long as the fuel and octane supports it. That being said, demanding as much power out of the motor as the G5 can offer (same goes for Cobb) comes with risks. G4 its harder to mess up, G5 if you set your max boost too high and had a bunch of E85 you could wear your turbos out real quick. Leave max boost at 16 or 17 if you want the stock turbos to last... its so hard to do this though...

    You will need the G5 for breaking 400whp on E85. If you aren't planning E85, racegas, or meth then get a G4. Email terry@burgertuning.com if you are interested in this route, otherwise the G4 is good to go and its only a $50 upgrade to G5 later.

    http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15904

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    That is seriously awesome. Means part of going Stage 3 Vargasturbos just got solved for me. I wonder if the OBD2 will pass though without cats?
    North Carolina has no smog testing in my county, just OBDII testing. I have "race cats" on my DP's and removed the 2nd set of cats and passed without a DP fix in place. I left the Cobb in and they have not said publicly if that will suppress the OBDII codes or not. Just thought I would pass that along.

    To the OP - A cobb or JB4 will surpass your current tune by far. I don't want to bag on Dinan, but they are very, very conservative tunes.
    2008 BMW 535iA | Cobb Stg2+ | FBO | Meth

  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    G4 is the older version of JB4 with hardware limiting of maximum boost to around 17psi. This protects the turbos.

    The G5 allows boost far beyond 16psi as long as the fuel and octane supports it. That being said, demanding as much power out of the motor as the G5 can offer (same goes for Cobb) comes with risks. G4 its harder to mess up, G5 if you set your max boost too high and had a bunch of E85 you could wear your turbos out real quick. Leave max boost at 16 or 17 if you want the stock turbos to last... its so hard to do this though...

    You will need the G5 for breaking 400whp on E85. If you aren't planning E85, racegas, or meth then get a G4. Email terry@burgertuning.com if you are interested in this route, otherwise the G4 is good to go and its only a $50 upgrade to G5 later.

    http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15904
    Which type of E85 are you advising him to use in order to match the octane level of meth, and/or race gas? pump E85, which was made with 87octane gas, or E85R, which was made for racing, with 100octane gas? If it is pump E85, how are you suggesting that he should run it? 100% (94-96 octane)? 30% (93.5 octane)?

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    The cheapest route for you is to ditch the dinan, get the JB4 G5 board, switch to a 50-50 mix of e85/91, and get a cheap intercooler.
    OP, please beware of running pump E85 mixtures greater than 30%. Brazil has been using 25% ethanol since the 80's, and this is probably why most vehicles today, are made with metals and rubber components that can withstand some slight ethanol usage. However, when when you mix pump E85 with premium fuel that already has ethanol (E10), you run the risk or over coming the anti-corrosives used to create E10, when you exceed 25-30% ethanol levels. For more complete information on E85, including questions on octane, and what parts are upgraded in flex fuel vehicles when running 100% E85, please read this detailed article:

    http://www.ethanolrfa.org/page/-/rfa...pdatedLogo.pdf

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    I would get a Cobb with a pro tune, FMIC and DP's.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    Which type of E85 are you advising him to use in order to match the octane level of meth, and/or race gas? pump E85, which was made with 87octane gas, or E85R, which was made for racing, with 100octane gas? If it is pump E85, how are you suggesting that he should run it? 100% (94-96 octane)? 30% (93.5 octane)?
    Pump e85. Put 7 gal of e85 from the pump in then 7 gal of 91. That is what I mean.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    OP, please beware of running pump E85 mixtures greater than 30%. Brazil has been using 25% ethanol since the 80's, and this is probably why most vehicles today, are made with metals and rubber components that can withstand some slight ethanol usage. However, when when you mix pump E85 with premium fuel that already has ethanol (E10), you run the risk or over coming the anti-corrosives used to create E10, when you exceed 25-30% ethanol levels. For more complete information on E85, including questions on octane, and what parts are upgraded in flex fuel vehicles when running 100% E85, please read this detailed article:

    http://www.ethanolrfa.org/page/-/rfa...pdatedLogo.pdf

    While ethanol is more corrosive than gasoline, there have yet to be any reported issues on the n54 or other modern platforms that have been running straight e85 for a long time. The biggest issue is getting more fuel into the chamber. I am not saying you won't have corrosion issues, I am just saying its very very very unlikely to happen and if it does it is even more unlikely to be an issue within the lifetime of the car. Best I vaxan advise you is to do some research on it and make your own decision.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    While ethanol is more corrosive than gasoline, there have yet to be any reported issues on the n54 or other modern platforms that have been running straight e85 for a long time. The biggest issue is getting more fuel into the chamber. I am not saying you won't have corrosion issues, I am just saying its very very very unlikely to happen and if it does it is even more unlikely to be an issue within the lifetime of the car. Best I vaxan advise you is to do some research on it and make your own decision.
    read page 27. There are a laundry list of differences between Flex, and non FLex fuel vehicles in order to accomodate the long term usage of a high percentage of alcohol. Take the pistons for instance. Ethanol, washes away the lubrication from the oil, leading to piston degredation. Flex fuel vehicles use a different type of piston, to combat this problem.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    Pump e85. Put 7 gal of e85 from the pump in then 7 gal of 91. That is what I mean.
    Fuel #1: E85 @ 7 gallons (95 octane)

    Fuel #2: premuim @ 7 gallons (91 octane-assuming 10% ethanol added or E10)

    Result: 93.0 Octane 47.5% ethanol or E48.

    Assuming fuel the 91 premium came pre-blended with 10% ethanol, the resulting % of ethanol at 48% is over the 25-30% limit, and will overcome the anti-corrosives in the premium fuel. If the 91 premium didn't come with 10% ethanol, there are probably no anti-corrosives even added. You will also through codes in your vehicle, with either scenario

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    Ok Turkeyfucker, we get it. You don't like ethanol. 100% of the people who have run it, with a tune to support it, love the power, consistency and cooler combustion temps. So why don't you go masterbate with your own tears or something?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    Ok Turkeyfucker, we get it. You don't like ethanol. 100% of the people who have run it, with a tune to support it, love the power, consistency and cooler combustion temps. So why don't you go masterbate with your own tears or something?
    Here you go again, getting childish, with the weak insults, stubby. RE-READ my E85 thread. E30 is just fine, and in fact I will keep using it, because it burns much better than E10. The US is really looking at switching to E30 as soon as some of its slight remaining issues are solved. It is important to NOTE the facts about it though. No one including COBB (which has worded their statements carefully) should believe that it:

    1. Has an octane rating higher than 93.5 (assuming you blended with corrosive protected E10 93)
    2. Has some kind of radical cooling effect-BTU's/Mile are slightly lower but only by 2-7% depending on the vehicle.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    Here you go again, getting childish, with the weak insults, stubby. RE-READ my E85 thread. E30 is just fine, and in fact I will keep using it, because it burns much better than E10. The US is really looking at switching to E30 as soon as some of its slight remaining issues are solved. It is important to NOTE the facts about it though. No one including COBB (which has worded their statements carefully) should believe that it:

    1. Has an octane rating higher than 93.5 (assuming you blended with corrosive protected E10 93)
    2. Has some kind of radical cooling effect-BTU's/Mile are slightly lower but only by 2-7% depending on the vehicle.

    What are you failing to recognize is that one of the key advantages of ethanol/methanol is that it can reduce cylinder temperatures vastly compared to gasoline because of their ability to absorb heat/evaporative cooling properties. You keep harping on octane, octane is a VERY SMALL peice of the overall puzzle. The need for higher octane to prevent pre-ignition is mitigated by keeping the cylinder temperatures down when running ethanol. Water has the highest octane of all, maybe you should give it a try.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    Here you go again, getting childish, with the weak insults, stubby. RE-READ my E85 thread. E30 is just fine, and in fact I will keep using it, because it burns much better than E10. The US is really looking at switching to E30 as soon as some of its slight remaining issues are solved. It is important to NOTE the facts about it though. No one including COBB (which has worded their statements carefully) should believe that it:

    1. Has an octane rating higher than 93.5 (assuming you blended with corrosive protected E10 93)
    2. Has some kind of radical cooling effect-BTU's/Mile are slightly lower but only by 2-7% depending on the vehicle.
    There are A LOT of people running 12-15 degrees of timing advance on a 30% ethanol mix, THERE IS NOW WAY IN $#@! you can do that on, what you to believe to be, "just 93.3 octane."

    There are a lot of other things going on other than just calculated octane.
    Click here to enlarge
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    It'll be easy enough to measure EGT differences with various E85 blends once I get my car back. I have EGT probes right on the exhaust manifold and we'll see some real world data.

    E85 speed of burn is slower than 93 or 93.5 octane from gasoline is. This is the main reason it quiets down knock/timing corrections and more power is available due to raised MBT
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    read page 27. There are a laundry list of differences between Flex, and non FLex fuel vehicles in order to accomodate the long term usage of a high percentage of alcohol. Take the pistons for instance. Ethanol, washes away the lubrication from the oil, leading to piston degredation. Flex fuel vehicles use a different type of piston, to combat this problem.

    You aren't reading what I am writing. I know there are hardware differences. I just dont believe they are significant enough to really matter over the life of the average car. If they are and in 10 years I need new fuel lines then guess what, I will spend the $200 to replace them and will be fine with it knowing I gained 70+hp for the past 10 years.



    Regarding the e85 octane, that's just one facet of the fuels knock resistance. Please consider the cooler burn and the fact that you are adding 30% more of it to hit your lambda targets. More fuel absorbs more heat.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    If [...] in 10 years I need new fuel lines then guess what, I will spend the $200 to replace them and will be fine with it knowing I gained 70+hp for the past 10 years.
    That's how I look at it too. I'm on 100% E85 again this week in preparation for the dyno next Saturday.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    It'll be easy enough to measure EGT differences with various E85 blends once I get my car back. I have EGT probes right on the exhaust manifold and we'll see some real world data.

    E85 speed of burn is slower than 93 or 93.5 octane from gasoline is. This is the main reason it quiets down knock/timing corrections and more power is available due to raised MBT
    Go to ethanol.org. Several extensive studies have already been done on E10-30. One in the late 90's showed a range of 2-7% swings in BTU/mile depending on vehicle. No two vehicles react the same way to E85. They did however note that if the vehicle did see slightly lower BTU's/mile, they always saw a corresponding drop in gas mileage. Some vehicles gained mpg, while some lost.

    On a side note, please tell me you and BrianMN are going to stop playing around with 100%E85. Leave shiv to drown in the stuff, but have some sense man. I posted an article where you can see the laundry list of things done on FFV's to handle that kind of corrosive fuel.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    You aren't reading what I am writing. I know there are hardware differences. I just dont believe they are significant enough to really matter over the life of the average car. If they are and in 10 years I need new fuel lines then guess what, I will spend the $200 to replace them and will be fine with it knowing I gained 70+hp for the past 10 years.
    Please read what was changed in an FFV vehicle. It's not just fuel lines. I hope for your sake, it's a one time deal. I wouldn't make it a habbit at all.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    Please read what was changed in an FFV vehicle. It's not just fuel lines. I hope for your sake, it's a one time deal. I wouldn't make it a habbit at all.
    Look dude... I get it... I already stated how I feel about the matter. I don't still do not believe in the 15 year life span of this vehicle there will be any problem running a 50% blend. You are welcome to disagree, but please substantiate this will real world instances of vehicle failure due to ethanol (modern cars only please). Otherwise, as I stated before, for the 70whp I gained I really don't mind changing out some lines or a fuel tank in 10 years (which I am pretty sure I won't have to do anyway).

    What other mod besides a tune is going to give you 70whp for so little cost - even if it means replacing said items?

    The answer is nothing btw.

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    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 Click here to enlarge
    Which type of E85 are you advising him to use in order to match the octane level of meth, and/or race gas? pump E85, which was made with 87octane gas, or E85R, which was made for racing, with 100octane gas? If it is pump E85, how are you suggesting that he should run it? 100% (94-96 octane)? 30% (93.5 octane)?
    you still dont get it... amazing
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    It'll be easy enough to measure EGT differences with various E85 blends once I get my car back. I have EGT probes right on the exhaust manifold and we'll see some real world data.

    E85 speed of burn is slower than 93 or 93.5 octane from gasoline is. This is the main reason it quiets down knock/timing corrections and more power is available due to raised MBT
    Hi DZ, I'm back trolling... not really, just starting a learning discussion. These are my thoughts and I don't claim them to be 100% accurate. So let's discuss.

    I do NOT think a slower burn rate really has any "positive" effects on an engine. Increases likelihood of detonation and reduces mechanical advantage. A slower burn rate would have a higher average energy per time... BUT this works both in negative work against the engine and loss of usable energy due the piston being further down the power stroke. I think faster burn is always better due to higher, sharper slope of peak pressure. The burn rates at stoich are about 10% difference between ethanol and gasoline.

    The main advantage of E85 is effective octane and greater energy at stoich... the latter I don't completely understand, except that the molecular bonds when broken and recombine produce more energy due to the compositions.... maybe the additional oxygen in ethanol.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Hi DZ, I'm back trolling... not really, just starting a learning discussion. These are my thoughts and I don't claim them to be 100% accurate. So let's discuss.

    I do NOT think a slower burn rate really has any "positive" effects on an engine. Increases likelihood of detonation and reduces mechanical advantage. A slower burn rate would have a higher average energy per time... BUT this works both in negative work against the engine and loss of usable energy due the piston being further down the power stroke. I think faster burn is always better due to higher, sharper slope of peak pressure. The burn rates at stoich are about 10% difference between ethanol and gasoline.

    The main advantage of E85 is effective octane and greater energy at stoich... the latter I don't completely understand, except that the molecular bonds when broken and recombine produce more energy due to the compositions.... maybe the additional oxygen in ethanol.
    Learning discussions are cool! Click here to enlarge

    To start off I'll say that I'm as much of a n00b to ethanol from the chemistry point of view as anyone else. The way I've understood everything I've read is that higher octane will slow down the burn rate and in turn allow for more spark advance thereby allowing for more power. How that relates to average energy per time I'm not sure but I'd assume it raises the bar on average energy over time. I'd say that I agree with the negative work comment and loss of usable energy that you made and that is precisely why we'd advance timing to reverse those effects and in turn gain reliable/consistent power. Again, these are assumptions on theory behind it. In practice we see clearly what E85 or blends with it can/do allow when testing in controlled conditions on a dyno from one pull to the next. As I haven't had a chance to measure EGTs yet with E85 I can only assume it burns cooler and take it for face value when someone else says it. How direct injection changes those aspects of it and if it does remains to be seen when it comes to this particular motor and its tuning.

    Faster burn will require timing to be pulled out to prevent detonation. This is analogues to for instance running nitrous. Nitrous serves as a catalyst, it speeds up the burn rate (or in other words it results in positive work with the engine and a gain of usable energy). I realize nitrous isn't a fuel but I'd say it can be considered as such and when running it, due to reasons stated, spark advance would need to be retarded from where it was prior to injecting it to prevent detonation.

    What's your source on burn rate differences between gasoline and ethanol? Would love to read up on that a bit. Also the comment on E85 having greater energy than gasoline at stoich, is this in a document you can share? I love mulling over these documents as I also have a somewhat limited chemistry background good enough to understand the basics Click here to enlarge My major was in low power microelectronics but the last 14 years I've spent contracting designing and integrating enterprise systems in Java so my academic knowledge is pretty rusty to say the least
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 09-17-2012 at 05:48 PM.
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