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  1. #1
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    The S65 head stud issue with forced induction

    Well, since the cat is out of the bad I guess we can finally discuss this topic. I wasn't allowed to as nobody wanted to tip off the competition instead letting them learn the hard way. It appears they finally did:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PencilGeek
    Still waiting on head studs. Engine builder is at Indy-500 this weekend as part of celebration of past drivers and crews. I guess he's bringing some book or something to give to Roger Penske from back in the day when he worked on Mark Donahue's motor.

    Anyways we're getting real close on head studs. Think we found the 625 material we were looking for without having to buy 75,000 pounds of it. Then head studs can be made.
    625 material fell through. We ended up going another route with 8740. Studs are now in progress. We have enough material for at least two sets of head studs...maybe three. Final specs will be about 220k PSI. 625 material would have been 260k PSI.
    Gintani solved this a while ago but I had to keep quiet (really wish I could tell you guys half the stuff I know). Anyway, the S65 head studs simply are not strong enough as the head will lift at... well, can't tell you at what point. The S65 is a $#@! due to the aluminum block and lack of material as it is designed to be so compact.

    What I can tell you is I have had upgraded head studs for a nice long time as have other built motor setups. Funny how people talk about my car being down yet the self proclaimed stroker genius with a blown motor that has been down LONGER is just now learning about this issue.

    Also, nobody is going to be able to go beyond a certain level without looking into this. So, this is why you will always see certain setups behind until they address it.

    Amazing what could be accomplished if information could be shared. But, I'm shedding no tears.

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  2. #2
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    Wow, that sucks for supercharged s65 guys, who sells the upgraded studs, what else is involved?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    Wow, that sucks for supercharged s65 guys, who sells the upgraded studs, what else is involved?
    Well nobody sells them that I know. Gintani can take care of it.

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    This doesn't surprise me.

    Regarding sourcing fasteners....I don't understand why everyone is stuck looking to just one vendor. (ARP) Most F1 engines use fasteners from a range of other vendors...all readily known to proper motorsport vendors. Lisi is probably the most prominent....
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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Well nobody sells them that I know. Gintani can take care of it.
    Real engine machine shops know how to build engines that last. Real BMW engine machine shops know how to build BMW engines that last. Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mike@VAC Click here to enlarge
    Real engine machine shops know how to build engines that last. Real BMW engine machine shops know how to build BMW engines that last. Click here to enlarge
    I believe that. I haven't had head stud or head lifting problems Click here to enlarge

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    It was discussed many times before on M3P by a few people. IIRC the limit is 17-18 psi and after that the head starts to lift. I don't see how it's a big deal here though. Aftermarket head studs are one of the first things to consider in FI. I've seen turbo M50 and M30's that only has headstuds and thicker headgasket and that's it. In S65 section though, everyone wants to have big things with small effort and money.

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    LOL, does anyone actually listen to PG when he speaks anymore?

    Learning curves like this, are why I'll enjoy being not as fast as others, for a while.

    Very interested in the solutions and performance of both, Gintanis cars, and VACs.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    IIRC the limit is 17-18 psi and after that the head starts to lift
    Nope.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    Aftermarket head studs are one of the first things to consider in FI.
    Do it on an S65 and you will find out why.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    LOL, does anyone actually listen to PG when he speaks anymore?

    Learning curves like this, are why I'll enjoy being not as fast as others, for a while.

    Very interested in the solutions and performance of both, Gintanis cars, and VACs.
    I listen to everyone even PG, then make an informed decision. I don't exclude anyone anymore from any conversations. This is the reason why I think Sticky said the community would be better if people would stop being so secretive on projects. Let people talk and discuss the problems openly without bad mouthing each other. I am not pointing this at anyone directly, but if I stopped listening to people then I would be narrowed in my thinking.

    Sticky-Just tell us the breaking point of the head bolts....again we can all learn right and possibly prevent someone a costly mistake.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by kiloil Click here to enlarge
    Sticky-Just tell us the breaking point of the head bolts....again we can all learn right and possibly prevent someone a costly mistake.
    If I did the problem would be that I would be going back on my word. So I can't for those reasons not because I don't want people to know. As soon as I get the green light, I will share.

    A lot of people tell me things and inform me they do so only because I won't tell anyone. This is one of those times, I'm sorry.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    If I did the problem would be that I would be going back on my word. So I can't for those reasons not because I don't want people to know. As soon as I get the green light, I will share.

    A lot of people tell me things and inform me they do so only because I won't tell anyone. This is one of those times, I'm sorry.
    Seems to me the logical reason why you can't say anything is because they aren't sure if they have a fix yet for the stock head bolts letting go....
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    Seems to me the logical reason why you can't say anything is because they aren't sure if they have a fix yet for the stock head bolts letting go....
    No, it's because they knew others would run into this issue and sure enough... they did.

    Head studs were not my problem, fixed a while ago.

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Well we see this very differently, I think by holding back information is hurting the community. I understand your exclusivity in Gintani, but what harm is to them if you say the PSI at which heads start to lift. Why would they tell you this information anyway, to make them appear to be good engine builder? I think it's smoke and mirrors when someone says "hey keep it a secret"; 9 out of 10 times the information is incorrect.

    I come on the boards (don't post much) to read what others have to say, when you censor someone or hold back information, it makes it look like your the omnipotent person. You help the BMW crowd much more with full discolure.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by kiloil Click here to enlarge
    Well we see this very differently, I think by holding back information is hurting the community
    I strongly agree but the community is already fractured, not by my doing.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by kiloil Click here to enlarge
    I understand your exclusivity in Gintani, but what harm is to them if you say the PSI at which heads start to lift. Why would they tell you this information anyway, to make them appear to be good engine builder?
    Why would they tell me? Probably so I knew why I was paying extra for head studs.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by kiloil Click here to enlarge
    I think it's smoke and mirrors when someone says "hey keep it a secret"; 9 out of 10 times the information is incorrect.
    Up to you to decide. I think you can come to the conclusion that past a certain level one will need to address the head studs.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by kiloil Click here to enlarge
    I come on the boards (don't post much) to read what others have to say, when you censor someone or hold back information, it makes it look like your the omnipotent person. You help the BMW crowd much more with full discolure.
    I agree. But, you can't just go babbling everything you know onto the boards. Then you violate peoples trust and they no longer want to share information with you. Can't you respect that?

    Plus, just look at the boost levels people have already hit. It's not hard to figure out the window on your own here.

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    Interesting. There is always so much that isn't discussed publicly.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    625 material fell through. We ended up going another route with 8740. Studs are now in progress. We have enough material for at least two sets of head studs...maybe three. Final specs will be about 220k PSI. 625 material would have been 260k PSI.
    Essentially what the S54's have been running...L19's being 625 and the Regular ARP's being 8740...but Sticky must keep secrets for the good of the Community!! How many S65's will be blown...nobody knows...but Gintani no care!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin Click here to enlarge
    Essentially what the S54's have been running...L19's being 625 and the Regular ARP's being 8740...but Sticky must keep secrets for the good of the Community!! How many S65's will be blown...nobody knows...but Gintani no care!
    I don't think it's that they don't care or else I wouldn't receive this upgrades and neither would others. It's more that the competition has put them down and now expects what, to have information handed to them? I agree with Gintani, screw em and them figure it out on their own.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I agree with Gintani, screw em and them figure it out on their own.
    Meanwhile owners of blown, non-Gintani E9x M3s suffer
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Meanwhile owners of blown, non-Gintani E9x M3s suffer
    Uh, no. This is not an issue that will rear its head (get the pun?) on any stock internal setup as they don't push anywhere near enough boost. So sorry, invalid point.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Uh, no. This is not an issue that will rear its head (get the pun?) on any stock internal setup as they don't push anywhere near enough boost. So sorry, invalid point.
    Fair, hadn't read this article in a while & I didn't realize this issue only impacts low-compression/high boost builds. So as of right now it only impacts the Gintani Stage III (who have the solution), ESS 725 & G-Power SKIII.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Fair, hadn't read this article in a while & I didn't realize this issue only impacts low-compression/high boost builds. So as of right now it only impacts the Gintani Stage III (who have the solution), ESS 725 & G-Power SKIII.
    Honestly, the ESS setups on built motors still keep the boost rather low as the blower isn't that big. So, only 1 person has mentioned it with an ESS setup.

    G-Power never went far enough either from what I have seen.

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    0 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    This can work both ways for Gintani...other companies will follow the same trend and hide information and when Gintani runs into a wall...we'll see who's laughing. In the end nobody comes out on top...Gintani can get their heads out of their asses; I'll never spend a time at $#@! shop like theirs because of this attitude.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin Click here to enlarge
    other companies will follow the same trend and hide information and when Gintani runs into a wall...we'll see who's laughing.
    Yes we will see.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin Click here to enlarge
    In the end nobody comes out on top...Gintani can get their heads out of their asses; I'll never spend a time at $#@! shop like theirs because of this attitude.
    You have no idea what you are talking about or the types of BS people try to pull on this shop. If you want the info contact them. You act like it's some nuclear secret, the head starts lifting at a certain PSI. You can't hit on a stock internal car. Not hard to figure it out.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Yes we will see.You have no idea what you are talking about or the types of BS people try to pull on this shop. If you want the info contact them. You act like it's some nuclear secret, the head starts lifting at a certain PSI. You can't hit on a stock internal car. Not hard to figure it out.
    Gintani is the one keeping a stupid secret from the community...from a business perspective it's understandable but that being said the way they carry themselves in business shows me and other customers what to expect...more secrets, hidden costs, etc... No trust...no faith...no money out of my pocket. That is what I do know. Sticky your car has been sitting for so long in R&D and you make it sound like the head studs they developed/used are magic when other platforms like the S54 has required L19's to prevent lifting...I'm sure any bmw engine builder like VAC could've told you head studs were needed in the first place...just shows more inexperience by Gintani.

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