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Thread: More logs.

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    More logs.

    Ok well I did 2 logs with a revised map. The first log has tons of timing corrections, But the second log with the same map looks a hell of a lot better. WHat can this be caused by? Also I can see the meth isnt working properly as the IATs begin to drop but after 4500-5000 RPMs the IATs begin to rise like meth isnt spraying. Why would this happen? By the way, Im waiting on a new controller from Richard at Aquamist. Im posting these logs in txt. datalog6 has a ton of timing corrections and datalog 8 looks pretty good to me. but I really dont know how to read these logs. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Actually datalog 6(the one with a lot of timing corrections will not load because it says the files too large). Anyway I can get it on this forum? But I did attach datalog8.
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    zip the .csv file and post the zip. There is a higher size limit for zips. If these are COBB logs, then you could always use my datalog grapher and then post the graph images.

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    I actually did download your grapher, but for some reason my excel wont allow me to do it. Its like a broken down excel version and doesnt have the one thing you have to turn on. I forget what it is but you put it in the description of what needs to be done.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Zasquatch Click here to enlarge
    zip the .csv file and post the zip. There is a higher size limit for zips. If these are COBB logs, then you could always use my datalog grapher and then post the graph images.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by woptang22 Click here to enlarge
    Ok well I did 2 logs with a revised map. The first log has tons of timing corrections, But the second log with the same map looks a hell of a lot better. WHat can this be caused by? Also I can see the meth isnt working properly as the IATs begin to drop but after 4500-5000 RPMs the IATs begin to rise like meth isnt spraying. Why would this happen? By the way, Im waiting on a new controller from Richard at Aquamist. Im posting these logs in txt. datalog6 has a ton of timing corrections and datalog 8 looks pretty good to me. but I really dont know how to read these logs. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Actually datalog 6(the one with a lot of timing corrections will not load because it says the files too large). Anyway I can get it on this forum? But I did attach datalog8.
    Your IAT's are not going to keep dropping, even with alcahol injection. One of the telltale signs that your meth is flowing properly is the STFT's are very negative throughout the entire run - That log looks fine, and if anything i would call that conservative for your mods. I would focus on trying to pinpoint if you have a hardware issue. Walnut shell cleaning, coils, plugs?

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    Im actually getting the walnut shell blasting next week. Plugs are new. I actually took a look at a fellow members logs with the same meth setup and his IATs drop all the way to redline where mine start to rise again after 5000 rpms. Thats why Im kind of confused.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    Your IAT's are not going to keep dropping, even with alcahol injection. One of the telltale signs that your meth is flowing properly is the STFT's are very negative throughout the entire run - That log looks fine, and if anything i would call that conservative for your mods. I would focus on trying to pinpoint if you have a hardware issue. Walnut shell cleaning, coils, plugs?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by woptang22 Click here to enlarge
    Im actually getting the walnut shell blasting next week. Plugs are new. I actually took a look at a fellow members logs with the same meth setup and his IATs drop all the way to redline where mine start to rise again after 5000 rpms. Thats why Im kind of confused.
    What's up buddy?

    May be your friend had different ambient temps when he logged his, or it was his first run... could be a lot of things. I wish you could post the graph. A lot more people would look at it!
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by woptang22 Click here to enlarge
    Im actually getting the walnut shell blasting next week. Plugs are new. I actually took a look at a fellow members logs with the same meth setup and his IATs drop all the way to redline where mine start to rise again after 5000 rpms. Thats why Im kind of confused.
    Are you running the same nozzles, same meth concentration, the exact same tune, same weather, same charge piping from the FMIC to the intake manifold and same placement for nozzles?
    Click here to enlarge

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    You guys trying to dial in meth tuning without a meth flow sensor are crazy. Click here to enlarge
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    You guys trying to dial in meth tuning without a meth flow sensor are crazy. Click here to enlarge
    We have a meth flow sensor, the aquamist gauge - its always where you set the failsafe for high and low flow failsafe activation.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    We have a meth flow sensor, the aquamist gauge - its always where you set the failsafe for high and low flow failsafe activation.
    That is the real drawback with that type of a on/off binary system, vs. progressive flow mapping. Working out progressive mapping is on my to-do list for you Cobb guys. Click here to enlarge But until then I'd set the failsafe at close to full flow.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    That is the real drawback with that type of a on/off binary system, vs. progressive flow mapping. Working out progressive mapping is on my to-do list for you Cobb guys. Click here to enlarge But until then I'd set the failsafe at close to full flow.
    It is progressive flow, i meant to say "its also where you set the failsafe for high and low flow activation."

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    No, I understand what you mean. The flow is progressive but the boost and timing targets are fixed. That is the fundamental problem. What happens with the tuning if flow is only 80% of normal, for example.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    There's really no issue if you have the hfs-4 kit. If your flow isn't in a failsafe window you dont get to run your map. Much better IMHO than going racing and only after losing or going slow realizing you're running at 57.34% of where you ought to be and have an issue to address. I stopped being a supporter of progressive boost a long while ago as i want either my car running the tune 100% as set up or failsafing and clearly telling me something is off and needs to be addressed. Progressive flow on the other hand totally makes sense.
    Click here to enlarge

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    The problem with that is where to set the min flow rating? Then what happens when meth is spooling up, etc? I used a similar system with Coolingmist for a year or two where you set the min flow, time delay before triggering a failsafe (to allow the pump to spool), etc. It's all workable just not ideal and relies heavily on user setup. With that kind of a failsafe I would set the failsafe trigger close to full flow and the time delay as short as possible.

    Cobb lets you map out advance offset per IAT so I think little device that can send a fake IAT signal that is mapped inversely proportional to meth flow along with some mapping changes to take advantage of that will do the trick. Dynamic advance targeting as a function of meth flow. I just haven't had the time to get around to designing the gizmo we need to do it. Too many pots on the stove right now. But we'll get there sooner or later!
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    The problem with that is where to set the min flow rating? Then what happens when meth is spooling up, etc? I used a similar system with Coolingmist for a year or two where you set the min flow, time delay before triggering a failsafe (to allow the pump to spool), etc. It's all workable just not ideal and relies heavily on user setup. With that kind of a failsafe I would set the failsafe trigger close to full flow and the time delay as short as possible.

    Cobb lets you map out advance offset per IAT so I think little device that can send a fake IAT signal that is mapped inversely proportional to meth flow along with some mapping changes to take advantage of that will do the trick. Dynamic advance targeting as a function of meth flow. I just haven't had the time to get around to designing the gizmo we need to do it. Too many pots on the stove right now. But we'll get there sooner or later!
    On my car with the default settings on the HFS-4 I haven't had any issues with meth system ramp up. The reason I think it works well is because it doesn't reference the MAP sensor signal or boost on its own, it also uses IDC and you can set the trigger point low enough. The cool part is that the trigger point can be set low enough but that doesn't spray meth at full pressure like on a PPS kit. Its pulsed like an injector maintaining the spray patter/atomization and properly matching it up with fuel. Default settings really work very well on the HFS-4.

    I know what you're saying and I don't think its a "bad" idea. I just think it might be unnecessary for those that have the HFS-4 with the failsafe and configured using default settings with possibly the trigger knob moved to trigger a tiny bit earlier. I've tested this on my car without a single issue, including tripping the failsafe for low tank level and no flow, running an all out 21.5psi midrange 17.5-18psi redline with really aggressive timing.

    However, for those that don't get the HFS-4 kit and wish to use a more simple meth system I think that your failsafe is not only a good idea, its a great idea.
    Click here to enlarge

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    You mean as the other member that had lower IATs all the way to redline? No I dont have the same setup as he does. So I guess that makes a big difference.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Are you running the same nozzles, same meth concentration, the exact same tune, same weather, same charge piping from the FMIC to the intake manifold and same placement for nozzles?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by woptang22 Click here to enlarge
    You mean as the other member that had lower IATs all the way to redline? No I dont have the same setup as he does. So I guess that makes a big difference.
    It might. On my car for instance I noticed that my cold side FMIC piping gets "really" hot now that i'm running aluminum piping there from ER. I'll be wrapping it like @sniz showed on e90post before getting my car back to keep the temps in there cool and not cause heat buildup to transfer over to that piping too much.

    What does the other car have in terms of those mods I listed? Any idea?
    Click here to enlarge

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    Honestly Im not 100% sure. Ive been talking to him alot because he also went to Akuma to have his meth kit installed properly. And Im just going by the look of the logs he sent me. It seemed as if hi IATs went down all the way to redline. Where mine go down until about 4500-5000 RPMs then raise right back up. But I think this has to do with the issue of the meth not flowing properly at high RPMs. And Im still waiting on the new controller from Richard. Hopefully that will solve the issue. Ive pretty much had enough stress with getting this all working properly lol
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    It might. On my car for instance I noticed that my cold side FMIC piping gets "really" hot now that i'm running aluminum piping there from ER. I'll be wrapping it like @sniz showed on e90post before getting my car back to keep the temps in there cool and not cause heat buildup to transfer over to that piping too much.

    What does the other car have in terms of those mods I listed? Any idea?

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    By the way heres the other log.
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Hey Marwan how are you doing man? I actually tried using the member aboves grapher but the excel on my comp doesnt support running macros which I believe is needed to make the graphs. Kinda sucks. Hows your car running by the way?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by marv85 Click here to enlarge
    What's up buddy?

    May be your friend had different ambient temps when he logged his, or it was his first run... could be a lot of things. I wish you could post the graph. A lot more people would look at it!

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    Looks like you're getting corrections at WOT onset and then they settle throughout the pull. I'd ignore the corrections at the top end and overall the log doesn't look too bad. Can it look better, yes, is it bad, no.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    No, I understand what you mean. The flow is progressive but the boost and timing targets are fixed. That is the fundamental problem. What happens with the tuning if flow is only 80% of normal, for example.
    That is why you either :

    1. Leave a safety margin in the timing curve
    2. Induce limp or vent vacuum when flow isn't reached in X time interval.

    IMHO, the flow sensors themselves cause more issues than the meth kit itself.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    1. Leave a safety margin in the timing curve
    That'd sound like a compromise though if you're running below MBT. Really no need for that if the failsafe and meth control are working as described.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Thanks for your input. Now onto fixing the meth issues. Only if I could get a handle on that, Id be happy. But I feel like I cant win. Hopefully this controller from Richard fixes the issues. If not,I have no clue what to do. I feel like Im out of options.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Looks like you're getting corrections at WOT onset and then they settle throughout the pull. I'd ignore the corrections at the top end and overall the log doesn't look too bad. Can it look better, yes, is it bad, no.

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    Does your flow meter drop at higher RPMs? Did Akums put one of the flow restrictors in the inlet of the FAV?
    Last edited by lulz_m3; 08-09-2012 at 08:43 PM.

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