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  1. #226
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    Funny indeed that they have the acceptance even though they are try not to hvae them available in Europe...
    You made me quadruple check myself Click here to enlarge

    This looks like an E-mark to me.

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  2. #227
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sledgehammer Click here to enlarge
    You could guess, but here let me cover your points...

    1. Its "out braking" not outbreaking as you stated. To your point however I said nothing of the sort. The focus of the conversation was around the skill of driving a manual over DCT whether it be on a street or road course. Moreover that having DCT in and of itself wasnt a sure fire way to go faster. In terms of braking especially when it comes to road courses I would argue the DCT has some advanatages. With particular focus on keeping the chasis settled and not allowing the car to overrev. Something that could be done in a manual potentially causing the rear tires to lock up, axle tramp or a blown motor (ask me how I know)

    2. Again I'm not speaking about racing drivers but the average driver on the street who thinks they are fast because they own a M or a Vette or whatever else. It requires very limited skill to jump into a DCT equipped car and flip paddles. Thats pretty obvious here vs say driving the same car as a manual trans car. Once they can do either one, then we can get to being faster from one car to the next. Following my line is one thing doing so on your own is another altogether. Or keeping pace when I drop the hammer is another as well.

    My issue here is that folks automatically say oh its a DCT equipped M3 so its faster and that has not been shown conclusively. A skilled driver can be as fast or faster with a manual. To do so requires quite a bit more skill than in the DCT car. Again my conversation and focus surrounds the level of skill to be fast in a manual vs a DCT.

    To cover your point regarding race car drivers one should note that traditionally a driver who is fast in one form of racing is not as fast or good in another. Drivers who jump from Indy or Cart to F1 have usually failed. F1 drivers to Nascar usually fail... Note the word "usually" meaning most but not all. Drivers that impress me are fast from one series to the next. Nigel Mansell for instance, Boris Said, Juan P Montoya and so on. I raced BMX and won races, I raced motocross and won races. I then went into carts for a year and I did this all from age 6 thru 16yrs old. I went and got my SCCA comp license at 18yrs old and ran some auto X events along with some time on road courses. I learned tons about vehicle control and so on.

    The average driver who acquires a sports car does not typically auto or road race their cars much less street race them or drag race them. They assume oh I'm fast because of X. Thats usually not the case and more often than not its dangerous. I'm not saying I'm special or better merely experienced in driving. The number of folks with fast cars who can actually drive them are far outweighed by those who have them because they can. Thats a fact
    1. lol..well sorry for spelling error, I didnt think it was that serious.

    2. I agree with you, if all youre talking about is drag racing, then yes for the most part all you have to do in automatic car is smash the gas and go. As I said Ive always driven manual cars all my life, so again if we're just talking drag racing, then yes..a manual transmission will require more skill than a driver who is just smashing the gas..but I think thats where your point ends.

    If we are talking about any other form or racing, the DCT has the advantage and to say that a DCT requires no skill, I think isnt accurate..you have experience in racing as you said, so you should know shifting is not the most important thing, unless youre drag racing. Thats whay I brought up the race teams...if the sole purpouse is to get around the track faster than the other guy, and these race teams concluded that a manual transmission is not the best mean to that goal, then how can you argue otherwise. If these automatics are shifting faster, then essentaily theyre downshifting faster, which means they are braking faster which all leads to faster lap times...i dont know maybe were talking about two different things

    and please forgive any spelling errors..its still early and i havent had any coffee yet Click here to enlarge

  3. #228
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    You guys need to realize something. The manual tests done by magazines are to represent the general public. These drives are not shifting these cars to the max potential and not launching them to their max potential either, why do you think all these magazine times get CRUSHED by the top drivers of forums? Not beat, CRUSHED. As for dct cars, outside of traction you can't speed anything up.
    Did you just miss the post on ring times that agree with the magazine tests done by a driver who flushes more driving skill than you posses?

    Why do magazine times get crushed? Several reasons. MIR in the winter in negative DA on drag radials with the track smothered in VHT.

    I do find it amusing how you dismiss how all the data correlates.

    Forget magazines even, why do manufacturers rate their dual clutch cars as faster?

    So it's a giant conspiracy and the drivers all suck. Naturally.

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  4. #229
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    Here is a .156 2-3 shift from my mustang. BTW I cannot stab the clutch while logging due to the obd placement as it is right over the clutch pedal. This is a FAST shift by me, not a track/race type shift. As you know 2-3 shift is one of the slower shifts. Hmm 0.056 seconds behind the all mighty gtr? LMAO It sucks that I can't actually datalog all out shifts due to obd placement, however I am certain I can bang this out under .1. I will give it a try hopefully without breaking off the obd portClick here to enlarge
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  5. #230
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fast4door Click here to enlarge
    f these automatics are shifting faster, then essentaily theyre downshifting faster
    They aren't always downshifting faster depending on the quality of the software. A DCT has just two clutches so it can't have a down gear and up gear preselected. If the software is good and it sees you hit the brake or decelerate it should anticipate a downshift.

    I never had any trouble with downshifts in my car but early on the transmissions did have some trouble in this area.

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  6. #231
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    Here is a .156 2-3 shift from my mustang. BTW I cannot stab the clutch while logging due to the obd placement as it is right over the clutch pedal. This is a FAST shift by me, not a track/race type shift. As you know 2-3 shift is one of the slower shifts. Hmm 0.056 seconds behind the all mighty gtr? LMAO It sucks that I can't actually datalog all out shifts due to obd placement, however I am certain I can bang this out under .1. I will give it a try hopefully without breaking off the obd port
    Aww he just wants to keep trying. It's adorable.

    You tell yourself whatever you want regarding thinking you can shift as fast a dual clutch trans. Somebody give this guy a hug and tell him he's a great driver.

    Oh, and post all your shifts on that run please.

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  7. #232
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    ACtually sticky if you look at the graph, it was timed by maf readings, not by speed, if you go based on speed, the shift is under .125 and its a slow shift. Look up a picture of the obd port in a mustang to under why I can't kick the clutch.

    As for that run, it was done back in april when I was dialing in my tune, the purpose of it was not shift speed, but to dial in maf hertz vs timing....

  8. #233
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    ACtually sticky if you look at the graph, it was timed by maf readings, not by speed, if you go based on speed, the shift is under .125 and its a slow shift. Look up a picture of the obd port in a mustang to under why I can't kick the clutch.
    You don't seem to understand it doesn't matter. You can't win.

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  9. #234
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You don't seem to understand it doesn't matter. You can't win.

    i already won though, bone stock against a modded dct, thats the funny part

  10. #235
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    i already won though, bone stock against a modded dct, thats the funny part
    Oh dear, this again.

    So if I drive a C6 Z06 and beat a dual clutch M3 i'm out-shifting it, eh?

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  11. #236
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Oh dear, this again.

    So if I drive a C6 Z06 and beat a dual clutch M3 i'm out-shifting it, eh?
    Hey according to you magazines the mustang and m3 needed like 15 drag races to declare a winner mt vs mt, stock for stock. Want to see the video?


    So the DCT should BLOW it away right, especially one without cats, and intake, and one that is lighter. Also the mustang was heavier, had worse gearing, and worse tires then in the video above, but yet it still beat the m3. AMAZING I know.

  12. #237
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    Hey according to you magazines the mustang and m3 needed like 15 drag races to declare a winner mt vs mt, stock for stock. Want to see the video?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muRC7WJHgmA

    So the DCT should BLOW it away right, especially one without cats, and intake, and one that is lighter. Also the mustang was heavier, had worse gearing, and worse tires then in the video above, but yet it still beat the m3. AMAZING I know.
    Yes, I've seen that comparison and yes, the DCT M3 would have fared better. Unfortunately they didn't test it with those two as they wanted to portray the mustang as best as possible not to mention Ford doesn't offer a dual clutch because it is a car aimed at a far lower market segment. As in, it's cheap and so is the technology employed.

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  13. #238
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    Whats that gotta do with me beating steves modded dct m3 when I was factory stock? My mustang is heavier then the one in the video above, as its the premium, not a base with brembo as in the video.

  14. #239
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    Whats that gotta do with me beating steves modded dct m3 when I was factory stock? My mustang is heavier then the one in the video above, as its the premium, not a base with brembo as in the video.
    What it means is they matched up manual to manual to try to make it fair.

    Secondly, you have a different car than an M3. I don't understand why you don't get this.

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  15. #240
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    But if the mt vs mt was so closes shouldn't a dct, ESP a modded dct be much faster? In my case it wasnt. That's the point here.

  16. #241
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    The DCT will be faster at certain speeds, yes. Due to its close gearing 2-3 it will have a quicker 1/8 mile and ultimately be slightly quicker to the 1/4.

    Once past the 1/4 mile and there is less shifting the shift speed advantage is lessened.

    If they used the DCT in the comparison this would be clear.

    There several factors that could affects your results including fuel quality, mileage, etc. I don't know if your car was modded or stock as you ran multiple times. Regardless, individual results can differ but the mechanism by which the transmission functions will not as it is a constant.

    I thought LostMarine has a quicker ET than you anyway?

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  17. #242
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    He didn't and yes my car was bone stock with 400 miles on it as I just picked it up 2-3 days prior to the track day. A bunch of members were there to Vertify this.

  18. #243
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    Actually Steve's m3 pulled in gear. I'll check the slip again but I believe I was faster to the eight both trap and et wise. However he out trapped me at the end....ass backwards of your beliefs

  19. #244
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    I'm not doubting the race was close. It doesn't change the shift speed argument.

    At a properly prepped drag strip I'm sure you will get a better launch.

    Not assbackwards at all if you are picking up time due to the 60 foot.

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    I didn't read all of Laloosh and Sticky's argument, but I do agree with his logic based on the 6MT M3 vs. the 6MT 5.0.

    If they are neck and neck then according to Sticky's argument, the DCT should beat a 6MT 5.0.

    However, Laloosh beat a modded DCT M3, which defeats Sticky's argument.
    2010 e92 M3 Jet Black | DCT | ESS Tuned | Akrapovic Slip-on | Challenge X-pipe | AFE Intake | 18" Volk TE37SL | KW V3 Coilovers | RPI Scoops | Under Drive Pulley

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  21. #246
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I'm not doubting the race was close. It doesn't change the shift speed argument.

    At a properly prepped drag strip I'm sure you will get a better launch.

    Not assbackwards at all if you are picking up time due to the 60 foot.
    Our 60 was identical.... Try again

  22. #247
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nafoo Click here to enlarge
    I didn't read all of Laloosh and Sticky's argument, but I do agree with his logic based on the 6MT M3 vs. the 6MT 5.0.

    If they are neck and neck then according to Sticky's argument, the DCT should beat a 6MT 5.0.

    However, Laloosh beat a modded DCT M3, which defeats Sticky's argument.
    No, it doesn't. You don't seem to understand how launch variance affects a 1/4 mile time.

    It doesn't mean Laloosh is shifting faster if he gets a better 60 foot.

    Seriously, is this hard?

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    Click here to enlarge
    Me bone stock on the left, Steves modded dct on the right.

    I got out 60'ed by .02, out trapped by 1.33 mph and lost that race by .02, irornically the same amount i got out 60ed. So from the 60 he on he trapped higher, and still gained NOTHING. man that dct is AMAZING.

  24. #249
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    Our 60 was identical.... Try again
    You don't understand. YOUR 60 FOOT versus what the guys at MotorTrend got.

    You can't possibly tell me comparing your car on a different drag strip in different conditions should replicate 100% what somebody else does somewhere else?

    Aren't these basics?

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    0 out of 3 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    look at the timeslip i posted and CRY.

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