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  1. #151
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by longboarder Click here to enlarge
    Guys, I have some updated news to post about the Procede piggy back unit on the M3.

    I got a reply from Shiv who confirmed that the progressive pwm meth control in the M3 works exactly like it does on the n54 - it toggles to a meth map from a non-meth map when detecting meth flow. It ONLY runs the meth map when meth is detected. Therefore, if meth runs dry or for some reason (there are many) just doesn't flow, the Procede will not run the meth map. There are 3 maps in the M3: map 0 = stock, map 1, map 2 and map 4. Map 3 which is a NA map on the n54 is missing/not needed on the M3. Shiv also confirmed that there is no traction control feature for the M3 which is a bummer.

    Anyway I will be running the Procede + meth initially before the supercharger install. I will also be running meth after the supercharger install but the question is whether I use the Procede as a piggy back on top to the (either VF or ESS) flash tune and specifically run a custom-tuned Vishnu meth map.

    I know your opinions so thanks for posting. I am leaning toward the custom meth map, but regardless of the decision will keep you guys posted.

    Cheers.

    your call, man. do us a favor, and log everything, n/a and boosted. and dont be afraid to let us know the bad as well. if it fails we would like to see how why and when. Again, your call, but at least you asked for opinions, but remember the responses, and most of us were against it

  2. #152
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    your telling me, on racefuel, you can run 10 psi on the s65, safely, consecutively?
    I don't know if we have established the absolute limit to the S65 on stock internals. On the S54 we thought it was 5 psi once. Now they can do 16 psi on race fuel. They can't do that on pump though.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    your telling me detonation is the only thing that limits power made? is that what your saying?
    No, I just told you the compression ratio as well and the strength of the internals.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    2 months is 2 months, you did what, 3 drag strip days? its 2 months, nismo's car lasted months when he ran the proper octane, but didnt take long to let go when he was just shy of the octane requirements.. same thing.
    Hold on, I ran it hard even when not supercharged and then only did drag strip events when supercharged.

    Wow, octane was the cause of his issues? So meth raising octane may have saved his motor? Interesting.

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  3. #153
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I don't know if we have established the absolute limit to the S65 on stock internals. On the S54 we thought it was 5 psi once. Now they can do 16 psi on race fuel. They can't do that on pump though.



    No, I just told you the compression ratio as well and the strength of the internals.



    Hold on, I ran it hard even when not supercharged and then only did drag strip events when supercharged.

    Wow, octane was the cause of his issues? So meth raising octane may have saved his motor? Interesting.

    is this an s54 or s65 convo? have any s65s been over 10 w/o being built?

    so, compression ratio and actual strength.. interesting.. what does the actual strength have to do with anything if there is no detonation though...?


    so, you ran it hard N/aA, that has what to do with this discussion?

    so youONLY did dragtsrips once FI.. interesting.. and IIRC it was 3 events, hardly a testament to the safety and longevity.. were you running racefuel on those dragtsrip days?

    oh yes, if he had the octance, like RACEFUEL, it probably would have lasted longer, probably a lot longer.. soooo.. he didnt have that octane..That octane REQUIREMENT that he NEEDED, and TUNED FOR.. and he did NOT have anything to reduce his boost.. he had NO "safeties" in place.. see the trail here yet..?

  4. #154
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    is this an s54 or s65 convo? have any s65s been over 10 w/o being built?
    Pointing out that tuning on platforms evolves is quite valid I think. Like I said, we don't know exactly what the power limit on the S65 is. The S54 was thought to be fragile early, hence my point.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    so, compression ratio and actual strength.. interesting.. what does the actual strength have to do with anything if there is no detonation though...?
    You are asking basic questions that you really should already all know the answer to. I mean, what does actual strength have to do with anything if there is no detonation? Well, then the limiting factor isn't the fuel quality or tune necessarily but how much the physical parts can take.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    so, you ran it hard N/aA, that has what to do with this discussion?
    Does running hard even when NA not have an impact? One car is at WOT for 40k miles basically all the time and another is driven around leisurely. Which has endured more stress on its components?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    so youONLY did dragtsrips once FI.. interesting..
    No, guess you don't remember I set the M3 record within months of getting the car. Once FI I pretty much only dragged/raced the setup.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    oh yes, if he had the octance, like RACEFUEL
    Ohhhh, not one sided or anything. If he had the octane due to racefuel he would have lasted but if the octane boost was due to meth he wouldn't have? Care to explain to us all why?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    That octane REQUIREMENT that he NEEDED, and TUNED FOR.. and he did NOT have anything to reduce his boost.. he had NO "safeties" in place.. see the trail here yet..?
    He should have run meth, he would have saved his motor. Wow, what a switch from meth is the devil to meth could have saved the day.

    How about that, someone blew a motor and they weren't even running meth. Oh wow, crazy how that is possible.

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  5. #155
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Pointing out that tuning on platforms evolves is quite valid I think. Like I said, we don't know exactly what the power limit on the S65 is. The S54 was thought to be fragile early, hence my point.



    You are asking basic questions that you really should already all know the answer to. I mean, what does actual strength have to do with anything if there is no detonation? Well, then the limiting factor isn't the fuel quality or tune necessarily but how much the physical parts can take.



    Does running hard even when NA not have an impact? One car is at WOT for 40k miles basically all the time and another is driven around leisurely. Which has endured more stress on its components?



    No, guess you don't remember I set the M3 record within months of getting the car. Once FI I pretty much only dragged/raced the setup.



    Ohhhh, not one sided or anything. If he had the octane due to racefuel he would have lasted but if the octane boost was due to meth he wouldn't have? Care to explain to us all why?



    He should have run meth, he would have saved his motor. Wow, what a switch from meth is the devil to meth could have saved the day.

    How about that, someone blew a motor and they weren't even running meth. Oh wow, crazy how that is possible.
    read between the lines. Im asking questions i know the answers to, and they do not support your view, which is why you cant answer them directly, and if you choose to seek the answer, you will know why our views differ, and your assumptions would be incorrect

    your not getting the message. nismo required a certain octane, he was tuned for octane. your scenario is saying tuning for the octane is ok. u can use meth.. but meth kits fail, A LOT. so the same thing we all have been saying, you will be fine, until it decides to not get to the chambers, and from there, its boom boom time. and it doesnt take long to go from perfectly healthy tuned for high octane motor, to need a town and new block

  6. #156
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    read between the lines. Im asking questions i know the answers to, and they do not support your view, which is why you cant answer them directly, and if you choose to seek the answer, you will know why our views differ, and your assumptions would be incorrect
    You are dancing so far around right here it is difficult to even understand what you are saying. What questions did I not answer? What exactly has not supported my view? Thus far, I strongly feel it is the other way around.

    Please, get specific.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    your not getting the message. nismo required a certain octane, he was tuned for octane. your scenario is saying tuning for the octane is ok. u can use meth.. but meth kits fail, A LOT.
    So we're back to the point of meth kits failing? Wasn't Nismo turbo? Couldn't he easily have had boost reduced if flow was interrupted? He blew his motor without meth. He blew his motor due to low octane. Meth could have saved his motor as you just wrote higher octane would have.

    So, he lost his motor due to user error. It can happen with or without meth. All you have done is support my point...

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  7. #157
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    3 out of 3 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Hi guys, first post here and I am dredging this up from the dead... but I hope to present my point of view.
    FWIW I have an old e92 M3 which is not nearly as modified as you all are... but over time...

    1) To me, the S65 ECU is definitely more advanced than the N54 ECU.
    It has more electronic complexity - a high end processor (though I do not know the clock speed it runs at) and more memory. The knock sensing is also more advanced than the N54 - it uses ion sensing similar to that on the SAABs from yesteryear.

    2) This advanced ECU has now been 'cracked' for a few years, and through PC, OE, Gintani, Evolve and countless others, more and more customisable behaviour of the ECU is available to end users. We now have the ability to turn off CEL for secondary cats, or even turn off CEL completely if we wanted to. We can do cold rev cuts, we can increase the revcut completely when cold even.

    3) To date, even with this advanced ECU, we have not yet unlocked the ability to "drive" additional devices we would add to the car. For example, we are not yet able to use the standard ECU to turn on nitrous, methanol or water injection. Conversely, (and arguably more importantly than turning ON anything extra) we are not yet able to turn OFF anything extra.

    4) The S65 was never force inducted from the factory. As such, the way that the standard ECU performs in a failsafe situation is how it would save the engine of a normally aspirated car. Specifically, it will reduce fuel injected, and impose more conservative timing. This is different to how a forced induction engine is saved. In a forced induction engine, boost would be dumped immediately by triggering the wastegates. Even with the superior processing power of the MSS60 S65 ECU, the (added, effectively aftermarket) blow off valves cannot be triggered by the ECU, hence boost cannot be reduced.

    As such, the MSS60 ECU is not as "safe" from a failsafe perspective as the MSD80 ECU in a forced induction application. It may be more powerful, faster, and hence more accurate, but when $#@! hits the fan it was not designed to save from an FI disaster.

    We can hope that with more development this will improve, but I suspect this will not be easily possible. For starters, the stock MAP sensor cannot read beyond 4psi or so, therefore it would not know between overboost condition at 5psi or 25psi and trigger dump of boost to suit.

    Hope my contribution is welcome.

    Thanks for the great site.

  8. #158
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    Great post^
    Click here to enlarge
    ESS 6XX kit

  9. #159
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Casual_gamer Click here to enlarge
    4) The S65 was never force inducted from the factory. As such, the way that the standard ECU performs in a failsafe situation is how it would save the engine of a normally aspirated car. Specifically, it will reduce fuel injected, and impose more conservative timing. This is different to how a forced induction engine is saved. In a forced induction engine, boost would be dumped immediately by triggering the wastegates. Even with the superior processing power of the MSS60 S65 ECU, the (added, effectively aftermarket) blow off valves cannot be triggered by the ECU, hence boost cannot be reduced.
    The S65 ecu is capable of supporting an NA or forced induction platform, it doesn't matter. The N54 ECU can work in a naturally aspirated application as well. These are all advanced ECU's. Look at some of the standalones out there, they are so capable they can cater to any application they are not developed so you can only use 1 type of aspiration period.

    Siemens sells these ECU's to manufacturers who have all kinds of different setups, they are not all turbo or all naturally aspirated.

    Regarding boost being dumped, your point doesn't make sense with the S65 since the boost is set phyiscally/manually. What overboost condition is there? Also, you can bleed excess boost manually.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Casual_gamer Click here to enlarge
    As such, the MSS60 ECU is not as "safe" from a failsafe perspective as the MSD80 ECU in a forced induction application. It may be more powerful, faster, and hence more accurate, but when $#@! hits the fan it was not designed to save from an FI disaster.
    This just doesn't make any sense. An ECU doesn't have to be designed specifically for forced induction and the S65 motor forced induction setups don't use turbos with electronically controlled wastegates anyway. The ECU has already displayed the ability to save a forced induction setup as it monitors the same parameters an N54 will like air/fuel, knocking, etc. When someone pulled a filter on a supercharged M3 and the filter allowed more air since it was no longer a point of restriction the car went into limp mode to protect itself. So what are you talking about?

    I'm sorry, some of your points just don't make sense.

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  10. #160
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    Great post^
    Not really.

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    Sticky, thanks for the reply. If I may try to encourage dialog:

    Your points on no electronic wastegates are accurate in that all the supercharger kits currently do not have them currently. As a failsafe in the case of over-rev of a 6MT on a missed downshift, where boost would go high because of the mechanically driven pulley, SOME applications (such as HKS supercharger kits) have an electronically activated blow off valve to dump the boost.

    Back directly on topic, lets consider engine failure in a methanol equipped forced induction supercharged S65 application, and what the MSS60 can do.

    Assumptions: we have modified tune for meth to make use of cooler intake charge and effectively higher octane - advance ignition timing, tune VANOS more aggressively
    What methods MSS60 CAN use to detect methanol failure: cylinder knock through coil feedback, intake temperatures, exhaust temperature
    What methods MSS60 CANNOT have input from: methanol flow gauge, methanol solenoid or pwm triggering, methanol/water mix level

    Methanol injection system failure (clogged nozzle, nozzle too hot so jamming, pump reduced RPL, filter clogged, meth/water level low)
    How MSS60 can detect:
    1. It sees IAT soar
    2. It sees engine knock increase
    3. It sees EGTs go high

    What it can do:
    • pump more fuel to cool the cylinder
    • trigger limp home under sustained condition of IATs being high
    • change ignition timing iteratively

    What it CANNOT/WILL NOT do:
    • reduce boost immediately
    • change to a "non-meth" map


    In my experience,
    1. with any forced induction, whether turbo or supercharged, monitoring knocking is a little too late to save the engine. You monitor knock, it knocks, ECU adjusts a little, it knocks, ECU adjusts further, knocks again, engine blown long before the ECU has triggered a failsafe/limp condition.
    2. IAT is not an effective way to save an engine. Engines have to run in 40deg C where 0-60 lives as well as 3deg C, so on a cool autumn night at 10deg C, when meth fails and the intake temps see 80deg C the engine will still not go to fail safe. Additionally, typically the amount of "influence" that the IAT parameter has on the tune is minimal. i.e. even if IAT was doubled, the tune would change 2-3%, which is not enough to save the engine.
    3. EGTs are not instant, i.e. they do not go up the millisecond the combustion is lean - therefore by the time you see EGTs are high you would have had several hundred rotations of damage within the combustion chamber.


    TLDR? IMHO S65 ECU not suitable to tuning for meth for daily driving as it is not capable to monitor meth system failure. If you use meth and want to be safe, either
    - do not tune for it in the S65
    - fit an HFS3/4 or a Procede or a unichip or whatever water injection controller in combination with an electronic blow off valve to monitor the flow of the meth and dump/restrict boost immediately if detected.

  12. #162
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    That is correct.

  13. #163
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Casual_gamer Click here to enlarge
    What it CANNOT/WILL NOT do:
    reduce boost immediately
    change to a "non-meth" map
    It's true that on the surface it can't do these things. However... reducing boost immediately can be done simply by dumping all boost electronically. Just tell the electronic BOV to say open. There is a way around it.

    You can't just immediately change to a non-meth map so if you are tuned for meth you better be sure to monitor your meth flow. There are external meth controllers that will notify you I just don't think anyone has set them up to interface with the ECU or send the ECU a signal that it should start pulling timing. The stock ECU is pretty sophisticated but it will respond to external stimuli.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Casual_gamer Click here to enlarge
    with any forced induction, whether turbo or supercharged, monitoring knocking is a little too late to save the engine. You monitor knock, it knocks, ECU adjusts a little, it knocks, ECU adjusts further, knocks again, engine blown long before the ECU has triggered a failsafe/limp condition.
    The M3 is 12.0:1 on 91 octane pump gas. It has to monitor and adjust for knock faster than the N54 really as it is pushed very high compression wise for a non-direct injected motor. The M3 really does adjust to knock incredibly quickly as is based on fuel quality. The knock system uses some kind of ion-detecting spark plugs instead of a traditional knock system doesn't it? Much more advanced than the N54 ECU I believe?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Casual_gamer Click here to enlarge
    EGTs are not instant, i.e. they do not go up the millisecond the combustion is lean - therefore by the time you see EGTs are high you would have had several hundred rotations of damage within the combustion chamber.
    True.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Casual_gamer Click here to enlarge
    MHO S65 ECU not suitable to tuning for meth for daily driving as it is not capable to monitor meth system failure. If you use meth and want to be safe, either
    - do not tune for it in the S65
    - fit an HFS3/4 or a Procede or a unichip or whatever water injection controller in combination with an electronic blow off valve to monitor the flow of the meth and dump/restrict boost immediately if detected.
    Personally I disagree as I believe the S65 ECU is highly adaptable to conditions. If you want ADDED safety, don't rely on the meth by pushing timing too far. You can also get an external flow sensor, the motor won't grenade instantly unless you are on the ragged edge which you shouldn't be.

    Sure, fit an external controller with an electronic blow off valve to dump boost and you are fine. So what's the problem?

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  14. #164
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    No problem, i suppose we all have different ways to get what we feel is safe for our engine...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Casual_gamer Click here to enlarge
    No problem, i suppose we all have different ways to get what we feel is safe for our engine...
    True.

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    This topic grabbed my attention while I was searching for Sticky’s build thread… didn’t get through all of it though. My interest is because I became fan of meth after seeing the benefits on the n54. I have researched lightly where similar setups are offered in “map switching”. Procede is offered on the s65 and I believe EFI Live may have some options with GM ECUs for changing parameters based on analog signal. Other than this I am curious.

    Some thoughts. Map switching will always be a faster reaction then mechanical failsafe. Is it fast enough to save an engine… you could calculate the response time from a flow signal to the DME reaction based on CPS… which even at 8000rpms will be less than a rev, and potentially fractions. The issue would be when the sensor registers reduced flow, combined with meth in the intake track.

    How does the S65 tuning work with FI… I imagine the MAP is replaced. BUT is the DME reading actual MAP or does the scaling in the DME remain stock… meaning the N/A tables are just revised to accommodate boost. For example if stock 0-5v = 0-20psi and boosted 0-5v=0-30psi, and DME is still seeing the 0-5v stock scaling and tuning adjusted accordingly. Or is the scale adjusted in the DME to register boost? How about e46 and e36 DMEs… same or different approaches to tuning? or is it MAF?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    same or different approaches to tuning? or is it MAF?
    S54 has a MAF.

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    I'm gonna speak to Shiv about this in detail at Shift-S3ctor. I won't do a custom tuned map initially...just going to use the Procede as a meth controller.

    My next step down the road is a smaller pulley and meth tune. 600+ WHP should be easily doable given that I'm already at 570 WHP STD with only 5psi and no meth.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by longboarder Click here to enlarge
    My next step down the road is a smaller pulley and meth tune. 600+ WHP should be easily doable given that I'm already at 570 WHP STD with only 5psi and no meth.
    BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!

    good one Click here to enlarge

    oh.. your serious?


    if you want 600rwhp, just go tell the dyno operator youll slip an extra hundo in if he crosses 600rwhp.. much cheaper, safer and faster to do it that way

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!

    good one Click here to enlarge

    oh.. your serious?


    if you want 600rwhp, just go tell the dyno operator youll slip an extra hundo in if he crosses 600rwhp.. much cheaper, safer and faster to do it that way
    Such the conspiracy theorist. I'm sure you also suspect the two built Z06's, the FBO GT-R, and the Ford GT w/upgraded SC that I ran were paid by me to keep those races so close. Believe what you want...like I've said before I could care less. My car is running strong and has been 100% reliable. Exactly what was needed at the Airstrip Event which saw dozens of cars not show up because they had problems, a Z06 blow its motor on the drive out, a GT-R blow its motor at the event, a bunch of 335's with transmission issues, and I could go on...

  21. #171
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    i didnt see you run anywhere near what 600hp would do though. i mean, not even close. so if you think your at 570ish, then its all good. i just saw cars with about 520 ish being in the same league, even w/ the almighty DCT.

    I know all to well about consistancy, no need to bring that up, i hear you on that one Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    i didnt see you run anywhere near what 600hp would do though. i mean, not even close. so if you think your at 570ish, then its all good. i just saw cars with about 520 ish being in the same league, even w/ the almighty DCT.
    Don't know what you were watching.

    The two Z06's are well documented. Ryan's made ~ 540 wheel IIRC and weighs what...3,200 lbs (I won by half a car)? How about Robert's Z which dyno'd twice...once at 583 wheel and second at 615 wheel. It's also lightened and widened and runs 345 tires on the rear (race was fairly even). How about a Ford GT with the upgraded supercharger (fairly even)? How about a full bolt on 2013 GT-R that made 600 wheel (lost by only a car and half)? How about putting a bus on an F10 M5 which dyno'd at 545 wheel? Yeah the RB cars were close (I put a car or two on the clean runs) and maybe they were 520 wheel with meth but did you know that these guys both had quite a bit of weight reduction plus were running DR's?

    I showed up with my car exactly how it came from the factory except for the blower and exhaust plus some 100 octane blend.

    I was there to have fun and I had a blast. While I wasn't looking for validation from anyone, my runs impressed a lot of people there. But I guess not you so I suppose I will need to try a lot harder to impress you LM, which is my goal in life.

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    what are you looking for me to say? Its clear you ran with 125mph trapping cars, as expected considering a true 5psi car runs 123, a 7 psi car runs 125, a 8+ psi cars runs 126/127. The dct advantage clearly showed in the runs vs auto N54's. was ita 10mph advantage as people USED to claim? nope, but its a car or 2..

    what happened with the vettes? i dunno, but aint no way they used all 600+ hp.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    what are you looking for me to say? Its clear you ran with 125mph trapping cars, as expected considering a true 5psi car runs 123, a 7 psi car runs 125, a 8+ psi cars runs 126/127. The dct advantage clearly showed in the runs vs auto N54's. was ita 10mph advantage as people USED to claim? nope, but its a car or 2..

    what happened with the vettes? i dunno, but aint no way they used all 600+ hp.
    I don't know why you are talking 1/4 mile trap speed now and how you know the 1/4 mile trap speeds with my opponents is beyond me. In fact the only person I discussed 1/4 mile times with at Coalinga was the GT-R that beat me...since we were chatting for a while waiting for our run. I don't remember exactly the time/speed but with street tires he said he was low 10's at over 130 so if you want, go watch that vid and tell me what my trap would be. By the way, if you hear a "beep" sound in the vid that's my V-Box hitting 130.

    Initially it seemed you were trying to discredit my dyno number...and now you are trying to do the same by attempting to convert to a 1/4 mile trap.

    Good thing we have such a good bench racer here that I never have to go to a 1/4 mile track to find out my numbers...I can just ask you.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by longboarder Click here to enlarge
    I don't know why you are talking 1/4 mile trap speed now and how you know the 1/4 mile trap speeds with my opponents is beyond me. In fact the only person I discussed 1/4 mile times with at Coalinga was the GT-R that beat me...since we were chatting for a while waiting for our run. I don't remember exactly the time/speed but with street tires he said he was low 10's at over 130 so if you want, go watch that vid and tell me what my trap would be. By the way, if you hear a "beep" sound in the vid that's my V-Box hitting 130.

    Initially it seemed you were trying to discredit my dyno number...and now you are trying to do the same by attempting to convert to a 1/4 mile trap.

    Good thing we have such a good bench racer here that I never have to go to a 1/4 mile track to find out my numbers...I can just ask you.
    Regarding traps I just wanted to say the M3 is stronger in a roll on race usually than its trap speed even indicates. Many of the cars that hit higher traps in the 1/4 get somewhat of a boost thanks to their launch with all that torque. This is mitigated somewhat when rolling and also the M3's redline. The M3 especially with DCT can take down more powerful cars on the top end.

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