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  1. #51
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by andrew20195 Click here to enlarge
    False. If you've done work with cylinder pressure analysis on a particular engine, you can predict when detonation is likely to occur due to conditions in cylinder. Audi did this with several of their engines, in particular the 2.7 biturbo, using spark voltages to determine cylinder pressure. When conditions approach the detonation threshold, the engine management pulls timing to prevent detonation, while having knock sensors as backup for unexpected detonation.
    Yes, but not happening here... spark, boost, water injection, VANOS will all change the cylinder pressures.

    have to work, can't reply to all this now. DZ, I can post part throttle logs later but keep in mind firing order and sample rates when looking over part throttle timing.

  2. #52
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    Sorry, you're a bit all over the place and blaming me for misinformation?

    So first you go off saying its knock, quote below, and that I'm spreading misinformation when I said the material in the injectors is sensitive the dynamic running environment in the cylinders and DME will correct timing through its corrections even when there is no knock. You said, that's misinformation, and that it IS knock, quote below:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    there's a lot of misinformation in this thread from a certain new tuner... sorry to call you out like this, but people will view what you say as fact now. Likely there is NOT any cylinder monitoring from the injectors or spark plugs as some have alluded to... even the engineer was not sure and from the wiring to each injector I don't think its possible (but i'm not very knowledgeable in electronics). Even if there was monitoring, you CANNOT pick up abnormal cylinder conditions without there being an abnormal cylinder condition (detonation). That being said, the DME is very quick to correct once any detonation is measured thus the resilience of the n54... so it's not super critical as has been proven through the very few engine issues despite many with similar conditions.

    It's knocking and should be tuned correctly and/or hardware fixed, but no need to sideline the car in the mean time... I personally wouldn't drive it too hard, but I'm also more conservative then most.

    And yes Myst I have logged all my cylinders and very confident, with the info I have gathered, that what happens on 1 cylinder is fairly indicative of them all... at least for my car. Of course I would like to log all cylinders at any time though... there's trade offs for each tuning option.

    And rarely do I have corrections at part throttle.
    And then when someone else also made you aware that what I initially said was indeed true you pull back, rephrase, and make it sound like you didn't say what you did above and that in this case its not the case, quote below:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Yes, but not happening here... spark, boost, water injection, VANOS will all change the cylinder pressures.

    have to work, can't reply to all this now. DZ, I can post part throttle logs later but keep in mind firing order and sample rates when looking over part throttle timing.
    booody, all I'll say is please don't argue and start your posts with "new tuner" et al. bs. If you'd like to have a decent conversation please try to do that and I'll do the same.

    To answer to your comment abuot spark/boost/water injection/VANOS, that has nothing to do with what your timing is set at. Those are indeed the running parameters involved in tuning this and many other engines. However, it has nothing to do with the topic in this thread for which you said I was misinforming and you very often to that as you clearly don't have the full picture with the tune you're using today so that's understandable. But please, going forward, don't label something misinformation before trying to at least politely discuss it.

    Looking forward to a civil discussion from you FILLED with datalogs backing your claims and I'll do the same.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Iggy Click here to enlarge
    Dzenno, I just wanted to thank you again for taking time out of your day to help me troubleshoot my boost issues. The car is an absolute beast now.
    No worries. Good thing you didn't replace your turbos when it was just bad wastegate solenoids Click here to enlarge

    Cheers

  3. #53
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    Look DZ, I'm not pulling back. In your position now, you cannot admit to being incorrect. It's possible there is some cylinder monitoring outside the knock sensors, but unlikely. Even if there was, this can only be accomplished with very stable cylinder environment for a particular load... don't go trying to argue piggy versus flash here. There is enough alterations in cylinder conditions from various tuning setups to conclude DME is not able to "predict" detonation (thus my statement on cyl pressures). Knock voltage correlates to cylinder correction and knock voltage is a result of knock.

    I do have Cobb part throttle logs... I will log for many minutes collecting data. Keep in mind cylinder firing order and load changes. Timing can be different in the even, odd cylinders at times (1,5,3,6,2,4) due to the timing curve and when the CAN sample was taken... this is not a correction.

    I would love to discuss today instead of working, but not as productive for my future.

  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Look DZ, I'm not pulling back. In your position now, you cannot admit to being incorrect. It's possible there is some cylinder monitoring outside the knock sensors, but unlikely. Even if there was, this can only be accomplished with very stable cylinder environment for a particular load... don't go trying to argue piggy versus flash here. There is enough alterations in cylinder conditions from various tuning setups to conclude DME is not able to "predict" detonation (thus my statement on cyl pressures). Knock voltage correlates to cylinder correction and knock voltage is a result of knock.

    I do have Cobb part throttle logs... I will log for many minutes collecting data. Keep in mind cylinder firing order and load changes. Timing can be different in the even, odd cylinders at times (1,5,3,6,2,4) due to the timing curve and when the CAN sample was taken... this is not a correction.

    I would love to discuss today instead of working, but not as productive for my future.
    Then please explain why timing corrections happen when the knock voltage monitor shows very little movement.

  5. #55
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Look DZ, I'm not pulling back. In your position now, you cannot admit to being incorrect. It's possible there is some cylinder monitoring outside the knock sensors, but unlikely. Even if there was, this can only be accomplished with very stable cylinder environment for a particular load... don't go trying to argue piggy versus flash here. There is enough alterations in cylinder conditions from various tuning setups to conclude DME is not able to "predict" detonation (thus my statement on cyl pressures). Knock voltage correlates to cylinder correction and knock voltage is a result of knock.

    I do have Cobb part throttle logs... I will log for many minutes collecting data. Keep in mind cylinder firing order and load changes. Timing can be different in the even, odd cylinders at times (1,5,3,6,2,4) due to the timing curve and when the CAN sample was taken... this is not a correction.

    I would love to discuss today instead of working, but not as productive for my future.
    Yet, you still keep coming back and arguing your points without any data whatsoever. I can't admit being incorrect? About what? I really suggest you drop this personal advice/comments nonsense seriously and just get down to data and show me what you mean.

    You're really something. I tell you that there are piezo crystals in our DI injectors that are used to monitor a dynamic combustion chamber environment which is in the BMW N54 documentation and has been discussed here as well before and that timing corrections are not indicative of knock and also tell the OP that his engine will be fine as its the DME controlling timing (which was the point of this thread by the way). And you come in and do this to the topic? Please, if you'll come back and waste your time on here instead of "working" do come back with concrete data before labeling anyone with misinformation bs.

  6. #56
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    0 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    Then please explain why timing corrections happen when the knock voltage monitor shows very little movement.
    one datalog row contains the current data at that time, so it will not have the voltage of a correction... its a useless channel. We do not know the voltage to correction the DME uses, although this is very common information explained in literature, but I am no expert of course.

  7. #57
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    Then please explain why timing corrections happen when the knock voltage monitor shows very little movement.
    Excellent question.

  8. #58
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    one datalog row contains the current data at that time, so it will not have the voltage of a correction... its a useless channel. We do not know the voltage to correction the DME uses, although this is very common information explained in literature, but I am no expert of course.
    A lot of words simply to state you don't know.

  9. #59
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    one datalog row contains the current data at that time, so it will not have the voltage of a correction... its a useless channel. We do not know the voltage to correction the DME uses, although this is very common information explained in literature, but I am no expert of course.
    And you're telling me I'm spreading misinformation lol useless channel? good job man

  10. #60
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    A lot of words simply to state you don't know.
    geez, use your common sense. voltage taken at x time, but correction at y time (will remain at current timing until changes / voltage changes constantly) still contained in the same datalog row... does not correlate.

  11. #61
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    geez, use your common sense. voltage taken at x time, but correction at y time (will remain at current timing until changes / voltage changes constantly) still contained in the same datalog row... does not correlate.
    You're still here and should be working! Click here to enlarge That's not the point. The point is you said that timing corrections are knock and that the OP was given misinformation. That his engine is seeing knock. What @themyst brought up to your attention is that the DME knows a lot more than you may think is related to knock control and its not just an old school reactive knock sensor/pickup slapped on the side of the block. It actually can proactively change timing based on piezo crystal vibrations which you can thank for all these years with only a handful engine failures.

    Come back with data please.

  12. #62
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    Click here to enlarge

  13. #63
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    geez, use your common sense. voltage taken at x time, but correction at y time (will remain at current timing until changes / voltage changes constantly) still contained in the same datalog row... does not correlate.
    log knock volt cylinders 1-6, timing cylinders 1-6. The AP polls those monitors with greater resolution than both the Procede and JB4.

    If knock volt showed an abrupt movement and the timing for that cylinder dropped, perhaps that's knock. The issue here is in almost all cases, the knock volt monitor does not move at all and timing still drops.

    It doesn't take a rocket scientist to decipher this stuff. You are simply arguing for the sake of arguing without having knowledge on the subject yourself.

  14. #64
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    DZ, I'm not here to prove anything, but felt the need to add some questions into your "factual" statements recently. You will be looked upon as someone who knows with your new title, instead of the question asking, learning tinkerer you once were... tinkerer is still my status. You know a lot, but think you know much more.... similar to myself really. It take years and years to be a competent tuner. I'm helping you actually.

  15. #65
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    DZ, I'm not here to prove anything, but felt the need to add some questions into your "factual" statements recently. You will be looked upon as someone who knows with your new title, instead of the question asking, learning tinkerer you once were... tinkerer is still my status. You know a lot, but think you know much more.... similar to myself really. It take years and years to be a competent tuner. I'm helping you actually.
    Really what it comes down to is you coming in and accusing me of misinformation when in fact it wasn't. Please don't spin it differently now. Its ok, I'm fine. I do love to tinker and that's how most of us learn. Tinkering comes from the passion for learning. How do you think the piggyback you're running today came about on this platform? Let's try to stay civil is all I'm saying and don't insult when no one is insulting you.

    In the words of the wise @Mat Morkin , I'll always be a student Click here to enlarge

    Peace.

  16. #66
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

    and I thought I would be bored at work today Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    DZ, I'm not here to prove anything, but felt the need to add some questions into your "factual" statements recently. You will be looked upon as someone who knows with your new title, instead of the question asking, learning tinkerer you once were... tinkerer is still my status. You know a lot, but think you know much more.... similar to myself really. It take years and years to be a competent tuner. I'm helping you actually.
    Someone who knows because of his "new title" ? Dzenno has been one of the aces on this forum way before the status change . He has helped anyone and everyone needing help. As far as you "think you know much more" comment, you nailed it about yourself

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    On my last car which was a Cobb stage 2 protuned STI, that thing sounded like a coffee can full of bb's when it would knock. You could hear it every time you gave it gas from a low rpm in say 5th gear. Now I realize that wasn't the best thing to do for the car and I'm glad my ringlands stayed intact, but I have never heard that awful sound coming from my n54 under similar driving conditions.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bmw335iguy Click here to enlarge
    On my last car which was a Cobb stage 2 protuned STI, that thing sounded like a coffee can full of bb's when it would knock. You could hear it every time you gave it gas from a low rpm in say 5th gear. Now I realize that wasn't the best thing to do for the car and I'm glad my ringlands stayed intact, but I have never heard that awful sound coming from my n54 under similar driving conditions.
    Could we even hear it over the DI clanging and the wastegate rattle? JK, self-poke.

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    ^ True the injectors are pretty loud but I don't mind it at all and have been driving without the cowl for the last 3 months. Thankfully I have yet to hear the dreaded wastegate rattle on my car. I was mainly just alluding to the n54 being damn good at preventing knock, no matter if your running a flash or piggyback.

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    Ok I have a few more datalogs

    Well I had the chance to get more data logs while on the road. The first 3 are 3rd gear pulls and the last is a 4th gear pull. The one thing I noticed throughout all 4 logs was that the timing corrections were great until about 4500 RPMs. And the charge air temps went down until about 4500-5000 RPMs, after that range, timing corrections were happening everywhere, and the charge air temps began to rise. It seems like at higher RPMs the meth just isnt flowing. Ive been in contact with Ricahrd at Aquamist regarding this issue. He wants me to do mutiple tests which seem doable. But in my kind a paid alot of money to have this all done and I feel the shop should make it right, not me. But I guess in the end Ill learn a bit also> The logs are attached. How do they look to everyone else?

    Sorry only 2 of the files were able to be uploaded. So Ill attach them. The others are too large for the site.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  22. #72
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    Ive been in contact with Richard from aquamist, he currently has me moving the "PRK" link to the "FDC" link to check the fuel duty cycle and make sure the wiring of the HFS-3 was done correctly. So Im trying to get some of this taken care of.. In the meantime, I posted a few more logs a few posts up. If you get the time, maybe you can check them out. Its seems like timing and IAT are good up until aroun 4500 rpms, then theres timing corrections and the IATs begin to go back up which leads me to think theres no meth spraying.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    You're still here and should be working! Click here to enlarge That's not the point. The point is you said that timing corrections are knock and that the OP was given misinformation. That his engine is seeing knock. What @themyst brought up to your attention is that the DME knows a lot more than you may think is related to knock control and its not just an old school reactive knock sensor/pickup slapped on the side of the block. It actually can proactively change timing based on piezo crystal vibrations which you can thank for all these years with only a handful engine failures.

    Come back with data please.

  23. #73
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by woptang22 Click here to enlarge
    Well I had the chance to get more data logs while on the road. The first 3 are 3rd gear pulls and the last is a 4th gear pull. The one thing I noticed throughout all 4 logs was that the timing corrections were great until about 4500 RPMs. And the charge air temps went down until about 4500-5000 RPMs, after that range, timing corrections were happening everywhere, and the charge air temps began to rise. It seems like at higher RPMs the meth just isnt flowing. Ive been in contact with Ricahrd at Aquamist regarding this issue. He wants me to do mutiple tests which seem doable. But in my kind a paid alot of money to have this all done and I feel the shop should make it right, not me. But I guess in the end Ill learn a bit also> The logs are attached. How do they look to everyone else?

    Sorry only 2 of the files were able to be uploaded. So Ill attach them. The others are too large for the site.
    Those logs dont look terrible... much better than your original datalogs. Also your CAT's dont look too terrible either. Arent you running 80% Methanol? IF your concerned about the cooling of the CAT, maybe switch to a 60% methanol mix? Im kinda a meth noob but from what i understand, the less water you run the less cooling you get.

  24. #74
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    I am running 80% meth and 20% water. But doesnt it look like the IATs are getting higher over 4500rpms? In my mind it looks like the meth stops spraying. But why so many timing corrections after 4500 RPMs?
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    Those logs dont look terrible... much better than your original datalogs. Also your CAT's dont look too terrible either. Arent you running 80% Methanol? IF your concerned about the cooling of the CAT, maybe switch to a 60% methanol mix? Im kinda a meth noob but from what i understand, the less water you run the less cooling you get.

  25. #75
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by woptang22 Click here to enlarge
    I am running 80% meth and 20% water. But doesnt it look like the IATs are getting higher over 4500rpms? In my mind it looks like the meth stops spraying. But why so many timing corrections after 4500 RPMs?
    To be honest your log looks decent. If I was out tuning your car I'd definitely try to clean up some of those timing corrections as I feel that with your octane your timing is a touch over-advanced. Sometimes, taking just 0.5-1deg of timing in certain areas of your main timing map can really do wonders to cleaning up corrections provided that octane is adequate obviously.

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