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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Forced Air Click here to enlarge
    In your case you can pay for tricare for far cheaper than normal insurance anyway. So your good. No extra "tax" for you.



    By the way it isn't a "tax" folks. It is a fine for not having insurance because if no one has it it ruins the whole idea of making it cheaper to cover everyone. So you have to pay the fine to help keep the total cost down. (yes I understand why as of yet healthy uninsured people don't like this, like said above it will help you in the end) Having the IRS collect the fine is actually a good idea as it saves the cost of another whole poorly functioning bureaucratic government agency.
    its a penalty, and was passed on the premise that a penalty is a tax. i have tricare, part of my career beneficts for closing with ad destroying the enemies of the country I love.
    Regardless, wanna count how many hospital visits ive had, or seen a doctor that wasnt mandated by the military? almost 31 years old, and 2, both when a child.
    regardless of whether or not I have insurance, its the principal that its not an option, pay for it or pay a tax. doesnt sound very American, doesnt sound like a FREE society does it? sounds like its society working in a COMMUNE now doesnt it

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    The Govt already has that right... Its called Car Insurance, this concept is effectively one in the same. You pick the provider and you pick the plan that suits your needs and costs. Just like auto coverage

    You want & need insurance coverage its apparently no less legal than say auto insurance and well the Supreme Court seems to think its constitutional. Love or hate it, you got it now. Stay healthy!
    We stay swingin...
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  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    its a penalty, and was passed on the premise that a penalty is a tax. i have tricare, part of my career beneficts for closing with ad destroying the enemies of the country I love.
    Regardless, wanna count how many hospital visits ive had, or seen a doctor that wasnt mandated by the military? almost 31 years old, and 2, both when a child.
    regardless of whether or not I have insurance, its the principal that its not an option, pay for it or pay a tax. doesnt sound very American, doesnt sound like a FREE society does it? sounds like its society working in a COMMUNE now doesnt it
    not arguing most of that, just pointing out that it isn't like it is not going to benefit most the people out there, as well as not change much besides bring cost down for the majority that already carry insurance.

    It definitely borders on being a socialist program. But so do many programs, the fire department, public schools, etc. Communist though? No, definitely not.
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  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by whoosh Click here to enlarge
    And this is the problem. The Federal govt now has the authority to force citizens to buy something by imposing a fine for not doing so. People that support this law, including the President, say "most states require you to have auto insurance so people should be comfortable with this." Except people can opt out of the auto insurance mandate by not owning a car. The only way to opt out of this healthcare scheme is to be poor or dead, both of which put you in the prime voter demographic in Obama's Chicago home.
    If you don't have a car and use public transit you pay for it. That is how it functions. If you choose not to have insurance, (which is just dumb to begin with, why risk completely bankrupt yourself or having a family member or yourself suffer or die if something goes wrong?) then you pay a fine, remember you get a tax credit to buy insurance in the first place...
    Never thought I would see the day...
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  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Forced Air Click here to enlarge
    If you don't have a car and use public transit you pay for it. That is how it functions.
    I pay for what? The transit? Of course. The insurance of the transit operator? Agreed. What if I live down town and walk everywhere or ride a bike? What if I live in the country and ride my horse? The point is that if I really don't want to participate in the requirement for auto insurance, I can find a way not to by not driving, which is a privilege instead of a right. Or I can have a large sum of money on deposit somewhere that shows that I can cover any liability due to my negligence in driving.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Forced Air Click here to enlarge
    If you choose not to have insurance, (which is just dumb to begin with, why risk completely bankrupt yourself or having a family member or yourself suffer or die if something goes wrong?) then you pay a fine, remember you get a tax credit to buy insurance in the first place...
    I agree it is foolish to go without insurance. It's also a certainty that putting the government in charge of anything makes that thing more expensive, less efficient, and generally more $#@!ed up.
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    Before the last edit of the Reddit thread (listed above) they had a pretty concise statement: If you are old, sick, unemployed or poor, Obamacare will help you and make your insurance easier to get and cheaper (or free). If you are young, healthy, wealthy or well employed, you will likely end up paying significantly more. When you look at the numbers, the middle class will get raped ... again.

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    because when you have a society that is given what it needs to survive, and generations on welfare, that says genereations of people that couldnt have survived otherwise. stop feeding the animals. stop providing for them what they cant do own their own and they will die. Those that can susatin life and florish live. so yes, survival of the fittest.
    tell me, how does it not equate to our society? because we are "civilized" ?
    I am not sure what you are trying to argue here... History gives context to the present, so said "generations on welfare" are not there by choice i.e. segregation, discrimination, and racism. One of the main reasons why the human species flourished was because of their ability to work cooperatively - not solely individually - towards a common goal, surivival. You can not live the life you have now without society, and you rely on everyone to do their part. Humans do not change their genetics when they acquire money, resources, or power. Although you may not like it, you are still part of the same species! Nor is anyone an animal in a derogative sense. Societal problems are more complex than your polarized generalizations.

    You should read The Origin of Species and understand the differences between social darwinism and natural selection. The term "survival of the fittest" came from social darwinism, which was used to justify exploitative and oppressive social policies. Social darwinism was the precursor of eugenics, scientific racism, and Nazism. I'm sure Hitler had similar thoughts towards certain parts of his society.

    "Civilized" is a very relative term.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    riiiiiiiight.. becaue every company thats started is not in it for profit and will not raise prices. especially now that EVERYONE has to buy what they are selling.. gee how could we be so stupid.
    This is the crux of the whole argument. I do not and will never share the same view; health care should never be for profit. I can concede that cars, clothes, software, etc. can be for profit. But profit should never be gained from natural resources, public works, police, firefighters, etc. From this point on, the argument is driven by a difference in ideologies. No winner can come from this. There is no need for you to continue replying, at least with me.

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    WEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GG///M3 Click here to enlarge
    WEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
    Well so far this thread is a remarkably civil discussion. I'm kinda surprised
    Never thought I would see the day...
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
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  10. #35
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    close, but not the same. first off, its not the fact of whether or not im affected by it, its on principle.

    who is injured by motor vehicle accidents?

    who is injured by one person not having health insurance?

    see the difference

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    close, but not the same. first off, its not the fact of whether or not im affected by it, its on principle.

    who is injured by motor vehicle accidents?

    who is injured by one person not having health insurance?

    see the difference
    Since hospital emergency rooms are legally required to treat everyone regardless of their ability to pay, everyone is financially injured when an uninsured person visits an emergency room. When the hospital can't collect the money, they have to raise prices on everything to cover the loss. This increases the price of health care for everyone else, and therefore the price of health insurance.

    If you want to remove the requirement that emergency rooms treat everyone, then you run into the possible issue of critical treatment being delayed while the hospital attempts to determine if you can pay or not.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bmwm3gt Click here to enlarge
    I am not sure what you are trying to argue here... History gives context to the present, so said "generations on welfare" are not there by choice i.e. segregation, discrimination, and racism.

    oh really, please explain how someone that drops out of school, decides to be a street pharmacist, and have random sex with multiple partners unprotected and impregnates them is racial, segregated, or been discriminated against... since when is everything "their" fault, ie not the individual, but someone elses, "societies" fault.

    ya know, my father in law wa born dirt $#@!in poor with no running water and drug/ gambling addicted parents. he had my wife when he was 14 years old. 18 joined USMC, used his GI bill to pay for college while working 3 jobs, as well as my mother-in law delivering newspapers with my then 6 year old wife.

    guess what he makes a year now? i wont disclose, but his last 2 bonus checks have 2 comma's in it, he owns 4 houses, 2 in on the beach. last one he paid 1.9 mil for cash.

    but i guess thats because he wasnt discriminated agianst for being xyz color or religion..


    One of the main reasons why the human species flourished was because of their ability to work cooperatively - not solely individually - towards a common goal, surivival. You can not live the life you have now without society, and you rely on everyone to do their part. Humans do not change their genetics when they acquire money, resources, or power. Although you may not like it, you are still part of the same species! Nor is anyone an animal in a derogative sense. Societal problems are more complex than your polarized generalizations.

    yes, someone has to be the weaker lesser of the species, they die off, thats how a species evolves, otherwise you get what we have today with 80 billion different "diseases" and abnormalities.

    someone has to pick the crops, someone has to clean the $#@!ters. just the way it goes. COMMUNISM IS GREAT IN THEORY
    but the problem is that quality and productivity suffer with no competition. so here we go, once more step for the lazy to get lazier. the same ones that would have been dead 50 years ago, and should be today


    You should read The Origin of Species and understand the differences between social darwinism and natural selection. The term "survival of the fittest" came from social darwinism, which was used to justify exploitative and oppressive social policies. Social darwinism was the precursor of eugenics, scientific racism, and Nazism. I'm sure Hitler had similar thoughts towards certain parts of his society.

    show me a species that does not involve survival of the fittest, and i will entertain the notion that that everything is "racist" which seems to be a common theme in your thinking

    "Civilized" is a very relative term.



    This is the crux of the whole argument. I do not and will never share the same view; health care should never be for profit. I can concede that cars, clothes, software, etc. can be for profit. But profit should never be gained from natural resources, public works, police, firefighters, etc. From this point on, the argument is driven by a difference in ideologies. No winner can come from this. There is no need for you to continue replying, at least with me.
    so, you accept that its wrong, but choose to support it, why?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by andrew20195 Click here to enlarge
    Since hospital emergency rooms are legally required to treat everyone regardless of their ability to pay, everyone is financially injured when an uninsured person visits an emergency room. When the hospital can't collect the money, they have to raise prices on everything to cover the loss. This increases the price of health care for everyone else, and therefore the price of health insurance.

    If you want to remove the requirement that emergency rooms treat everyone, then you run into the possible issue of critical treatment being delayed while the hospital attempts to determine if you can pay or not.
    so, since everyone will have insurance now, just like they all have auto insurance, our rates will go down? because legally everyone needs to have auto insurance already, so why are we paying high rates?

    I would upport a tax for those w/o auto insurance, $#@! yeah, you cant control that.

    who gets the bill when I an "uninsured" person goes to a hospital and is refused treatment?

    C'mon man.. you re-read a few posts up. noone in history has ever dropped their prices long-term, none of us ever would.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    so, since everyone will have insurance now, just like they all have auto insurance, our rates will go down? because legally everyone needs to have auto insurance already, so why are we paying high rates?

    I would upport a tax for those w/o auto insurance, $#@! yeah, you cant control that.

    C'mon man.. you re-read a few posts up. noone in history has ever dropped their prices long-term, none of us ever would.
    Most auto insurance companies don't run a tremendous profit margin. We pay high auto insurance rates because that's what it costs to insure cars. Of course the cost of everything will go up with time, the theory being that with everyone having health insurance, the long term percentage increase in cost will not be as great.

    who gets the bill when I an "uninsured" person goes to a hospital and is refused treatment?
    I'm not sure exactly what you're asking here. The way the system is now, you get the bill. But if you can't pay the bill, the hospital will use collection agencies, etc., to attempt to collect the money. This doesn't always work, and one can argue the result is unnecessary increases to the cost of health care.

    If you mean that we shouldn't treat people who can't pay, there are other issues with that.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by andrew20195 Click here to enlarge
    Most auto insurance companies don't run a tremendous profit margin. We pay high auto insurance rates because that's what it costs to insure cars. Of course the cost of everything will go up with time, the theory being that with everyone having health insurance, the long term percentage increase in cost will not be as great.



    I'm not sure exactly what you're asking here. The way the system is now, you get the bill. But if you can't pay the bill, the hospital will use collection agencies, etc., to attempt to collect the money. This doesn't always work, and one can argue the result is unnecessary increases to the cost of health care.

    If you mean that we shouldn't treat people who can't pay, there are other issues with that.
    i dont know what your view on a huge profit it, but I see agents driving 100k+ cars with stay at home wives all the time, i guess it cant be that bad

    we can disagree on what medical procedures are covered. I can live with that, my views are probably more extreme in that regard, but the ability to go and get the basics are a privelage, not a right, and you have to earn that privelage by contributing to society. you do that by having money, you get money by having a job. having a job means you offer goods or services that the society wants or needs...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Forced Air Click here to enlarge
    Well so far this thread is a remarkably civil discussion. I'm kinda surprised

    Yes indeed
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

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    oh really, please explain how someone that drops out of school, decides to be a street pharmacist, and have random sex with multiple partners unprotected and impregnates them is racial, segregated, or been discriminated against... since when is everything "their" fault, ie not the individual, but someone elses, "societies" fault.

    Why don't you ask them instead of me? I'm not a part of that particular group. My parents love me, were always there for me, instilled a good work ethic, and put a high emphasis on education. I'm incredibly lucky to have been born into such conditions. Instead of making generalized asumptions, visit your county juvenile center and ask the profeesionals what they think of the kids. I spent a few days interning at a juvenvile detention center and learned that the worst repeat offenders come from incredibly messed up households with generations of neglect, violence, self-destructive tendencies, and drug abuse, including alcohol.

    Empathize and really put yourself in their shoes, not with the current bias you hold, but with a true perspective. Think of yourself as that child, not wanting to come home because no one is there, or worse yet, someone is going to beat the living $#@! out of you when you get there. Imagine being told you're worthless and that society has already shunned you before you were born. Getting exploited by older, so-called "friends" who hang out with you for the sole purpose of having you carry their drugs. Later on, you get busted and now have a felony for drug possession before you're 18 years old. None the less, you try to better yourself. The Marine Corps. won't take you. You go to college and get a degree; what then? What respectable company will take you over an equally-qualified applicant who doesn't have a criminal record? Having no other resources, you end up working for a very low salary and may try to supplement your pay by turning to something you know, selling drugs. As the cliche goes, it's a vicious cycle. Easily, you would not be the same person you are today if you had their kind of upbringing.

    I have two friends that are doing very well, even though they came from drug-adddicted and neglectful parents, because they were adopted by loving families who instilled in them attitudes and values that reflected those families own beliefs which led them to be successful. They owe their sucess to the people they interacted with, not the conditions of which they came from.

    I don't have the answers for society's problems. But I know that leaving them to die is not the correct/right thing to do.


    ya know, my father in law wa born dirt $#@!in poor with no running water and drug/ gambling addicted parents. he had my wife when he was 14 years old. 18 joined USMC, used his GI bill to pay for college while working 3 jobs, as well as my mother-in law delivering newspapers with my then 6 year old wife.


    Thanks for sharing his story. I like to hear these kinds of stories because they inspire. I also like to see government-funded programs, like the GI Bill, that actually help people attain upward socio-economic mobility. It shows you that just because someone is poor, and their family has been for generations, does not mean that they don't have any value or cannot contribute to society. They are worth more than you give them credit for. So why let the poor die off? If we were to follow your previous line of thinking, your father-in-law would have never had a chance because him and his family would have died off. These programs, although costly, will eventually uncover diamonds in the rough.


    guess what he makes a year now? i wont disclose, but his last 2 bonus checks have 2 comma's in it, he owns 4 houses, 2 in on the beach. last one he paid 1.9 mil for cash.


    That's great for him. Hopefully he gives back and helps others who are in the same predicament he used to be in.


    but i guess thats because he wasnt discriminated agianst for being xyz color or religion..


    Well, what I originally said was discrimination over time, meaning generations not singular instances, cause many of these social problems. Just look at how many backassward people still exist today.


    yes, someone has to be the weaker lesser of the species, they die off, thats how a species evolves, otherwise you get what we have today with 80 billion different "diseases" and abnormalities.


    show me a species that does not involve survival of the fittest, and i will entertain the notion that that everything is "racist" which seems to be a common theme in your thinking


    "Survival of the fittest" in what sense? Most athletic? Best at acquiring money? Best at ping-pong? In terms of natural selection, fittest would imply: the species (not a particular specimen) which has the best chance to replicate. Even if you were the strongest, "fittest" human-being alive, you could still easily become a grizzlybear's, tiger's, etc. lunch. Natural selection is not about the individual longevity of a organism, but their species' ability to propagate in a certain physical environment over time.

    [Environmental pressures + Genetic variaton] x Time = Evolution (greater ability to replicate)

    If you apply natural selection to your compartmentalized view of society - meaning rich, middle-class, and poor - you will arrive at the conclusion that the poor are far more "evolutionarily successful" at replication. This whole premise is overly-redundant since we are all part of the same species, hence one of the main reasons why Social Darwinism is incorrect. As as a side-note, I'm glad that I'm part of one of the most successful species currently on this planet, after earthworms, bacteria, insects, plants, arachnids, reptiles...

    Please learn about natural selection; it's a very intersting theory (law, Click here to enlarge ) and stay away from pseudo-science which always has some type of agenda to justify. True science stands on its own, no need to be propped up or touted.


    someone has to pick the crops, someone has to clean the $#@!ters.


    This doesn't mean they are any bit less integral or valuable.


    just the way it goes. COMMUNISM IS GREAT IN THEORY but the problem is that quality and productivity suffer with no competition. so here we go, once more step for the lazy to get lazier. the same ones that would have been dead 50 years ago, and should be today


    No one in this thread is advocating communism, certainly not me. Wanting natural resources, healthcare,and other infrastructure pivotal in the running of a country is completely sane and correct. I still want companies to compete against each other to make better peripheral products. Communism is incredibly radical. Under communism, everything is owned by the state; No one has more than the other. This has never existed and will probably never exist. Communists actually hate socialists; they view them as the lap dogs of the capitalist system who are only there to satiate the masses and keep them from rebelling.

    Even now the poor on welfare don't have anything close to a decent living, at least by my standards (how people define decent is relative). You should ask an elderly person on the poorer side of town how easy it is to live on welfare/social security. Most poor people with government help live on roughly $1200 a month. Out of that, they have to pay rent, transportation, utilities, and medications (which will no longer be that big of drain after 2015). How much do they have left over? Certainly not enough for a BMW or anything really superfluous.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bmwm3gt Click here to enlarge
    oh really, please explain how someone that drops out of school, decides to be a street pharmacist, and have random sex with multiple partners unprotected and impregnates them is racial, segregated, or been discriminated against... since when is everything "their" fault, ie not the individual, but someone elses, "societies" fault.

    Why don't you ask them instead of me? I'm not a part of that particular group. My parents love me, were always there for me, instilled a good work ethic, and put a high emphasis on education. I'm incredibly lucky to have been born into such conditions. Instead of making generalized asumptions, visit your county juvenile center and ask the profeesionals what they think of the kids. I spent a few days interning at a juvenvile detention center and learned that the worst repeat offenders come from incredibly messed up households with generations of neglect, violence, self-destructive tendencies, and drug abuse, including alcohol.
    exactly, humans that should not have been able to survive without charity from the rest of us.

    Empathize and really put yourself in their shoes, not with the current bias you hold, but with a true perspective. Think of yourself as that child, not wanting to come home because no one is there, or worse yet, someone is going to beat the living $#@! out of you when you get there. Imagine being told you're worthless and that society has already shunned you before you were born. Getting exploited by older, so-called "friends" who hang out with you for the sole purpose of having you carry their drugs. Later on, you get busted and now have a felony for drug possession before you're 18 years old. None the less, you try to better yourself. The Marine Corps. won't take you. You go to college and get a degree; what then? What respectable company will take you over an equally-qualified applicant who doesn't have a criminal record? Having no other resources, you end up working for a very low salary and may try to supplement your pay by turning to something you know, selling drugs. As the cliche goes, it's a vicious cycle. Easily, you would not be the same person you are today if you had their kind of upbringing.

    we all had our own trouble growing up. some harder than others. essentially what you are saying, is that the product of $#@!ty people should be given a helping hand because they werent lucky enough to be born to intelligentpeople. Got it. So, what happens when these same kids grow up to again, not live productive lives and suck on the teet of of society yet again, and again, and again?

    yes, military will take you with convctions, I know this for a fact. your generalization is not realistic, nor my problem,your problem, America's problemyou can sill enter the military with a conviction. Show me someone that you can say has lived that. That has a rug conviction, a degree, and still no job. Its unrealistic


    families own beliefs which led them to be successful. They owe their sucess to the people they interacted with, not the conditions of which they came from.

    I don't have the answers for society's problems. But I know that leaving them to die is not the correct/right thing to do.


    ya know, my father in law wa born dirt $#@!in poor with no running water and drug/ gambling addicted parents. he had my wife when he was 14 years old. 18 joined USMC, used his GI bill to pay for college while working 3 jobs, as well as my mother-in law delivering newspapers with my then 6 year old wife.


    Thanks for sharing his story. I like to hear these kinds of stories because they inspire. I also like to see government-funded programs, like the GI Bill, that actually help people attain upward socio-economic mobility. It shows you that just because someone is poor, and their family has been for generations, does not mean that they don't have any value or cannot contribute to society. They are worth more than you give them credit for. So why let the poor die off? If we were to follow your previous line of thinking, your father-in-law would have never had a chance because him and his family would have died off. These programs, although costly, will eventually uncover diamonds in the rough.


    guess what he makes a year now? i wont disclose, but his last 2 bonus checks have 2 comma's in it, he owns 4 houses, 2 in on the beach. last one he paid 1.9 mil for cash.


    That's great for him. Hopefully he gives back and helps others who are in the same predicament he used to be in.

    why, noone helped him, thats why he succeeded, PERSONAL ACTIONS. noone gave him any help, anywhere. The INDIVIDUAL is responsible for making their own fate, not the rest of us

    ngular instances, cause many of these social problems. Just look at how many backassward people still exist today.


    yes, someone has to be the weaker lesser of the species, they die off, thats how a species evolves, otherwise you get what we have today with 80 billion different "diseases" and abnormalities.


    show me a species that does not involve survival of the fittest, and i will entertain the notion that that everything is "racist" which seems to be a common theme in your thinking


    "Survival of the fittest" in what sense? Most athletic? Best at acquiring money? Best at ping-pong? In terms of natural selection, fittest would imply: the species (not a particular specimen) which has the best chance to replicate. Even if you were the strongest, "fittest" human-being alive, you could still easily become a grizzlybear's, tiger's, etc. lunch. Natural selection is not about the individual longevity of a organism, but their species' ability to propagate in a certain physical environment over time.

    Nope, your wrong. Survival of the fittest is a product of its environment, Does a species adapt to meet its current needs to replicate. It used to be the strongest and fittest. those that werent strong or fast had to be smarter. Those that were not either died off. Then it was about food and shelter. directly. Guess what, hasnt changed much, except the means in which to get get it. Ever hear of Maslow?

    now its money, and how does one achieve money, by being superior athlete, less common, or very smart, more common. So your theory is flawed yet again.


    As as a side-note, I'm glad that I'm part of one of the most successful species currently on this planet, after earthworms, bacteria, insects, plants, arachnids, reptiles...


    lease learn about natural selection; it's a very intersting theory (law, Click here to enlarge ) and stay away from pseudo-science which always has some type of agenda to justify. True science stands on its own, no need to be propped up or touted.
    hypocritical much?

    someone has to pick the crops, someone has to clean the $#@!ters.


    This doesn't mean they are any bit less integral or valuable.

    so they should get paid what a CEO makes then. and get the same privelages? I mean, the mentally retarded are usually doing those jobs, a human that normally would not have survived even a hundred years ago...
    just the way it goes. COMMUNISM IS GREAT IN THEORY but the problem is that quality and productivity suffer with no competition. so here we go, once more step for the lazy to get lazier. the same ones that would have been dead 50 years ago, and should be today


    No one in this thread is advocating communism, certainly not me. Wanting natural resources, healthcare,and other infrastructure pivotal in the running of a country is completely sane and correct. I still want companies to compete against each other to make better peripheral products. Communism is incredibly radical. Under communism, everything is owned by the state; No one has more than the other. This has never existed and will probably never exist. Communists actually hate socialists; they view them as the lap dogs of the capitalist system who are only there to satiate the masses and keep them from rebelling.

    OK,But you are all for Socialism right?, whether you dont know it, or dont want to admit it, you are
    http://bimmerboost.com/showthread.ph...9-Reagan-again


    Even now the poor on welfare don't have anything close to a decent living, at least by my standards (how people define decent is relative). You should ask an elderly person on the poorer side of town how easy it is to live on welfare/social security. Most poor people with government help live on roughly $1200 a month. Out of that, they have to pay rent, transportation, utilities, and medications (which will no longer be that big of drain after 2015). How much do they have left over? Certainly not enough for a BMW or anything really superfluous.

    Oh, so again, my fault they didnt plan properly, OUR fault they were not smart enough to save, or have children that are smart enough/talented enough to take care of them, they get free healthcare that they probably shouldnt have gotten in the first place, and are living longer than God and nature intended.. these are all our faults because they made bad decisions......?

    red

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    you guys realize that Justice Roberts said that this is ultimately up to the states to support it or not? Government cannot force the states to comply and the state can just simply opt out.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shahsk Click here to enlarge
    you guys realize that Justice Roberts said that this is ultimately up to the states to support it or not? Government cannot force the states to comply and the state can just simply opt out.
    In theory, and as designed by the Constitution yes, but im sure there will be a State "Penalty" for not enforcing it, ie less $ for xyz programs ect.. Same $#@! as always

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    Indeed. The Constitution has been getting treated like toilet paper since 2001.
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Forced Air Click here to enlarge
    If you choose not to have insurance, (which is just dumb to begin with, why risk completely bankrupt yourself or having a family member or yourself suffer or die if something goes wrong?)
    Only people who win are the insurance companies. Maybe if the legal system was not set up to reward people for accidents you could live without an insurance company.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by andrew20195 Click here to enlarge
    Most auto insurance companies don't run a tremendous profit margin. We pay high auto insurance rates because that's what it costs to insure cars.
    What are you basing this on?

    How about insurance companies should be non-profit strictly for your protection and you get a % of your money back if you did not need anything from the insurance company?

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    exactly, humans that should not have been able to survive without charity from the rest of us.
    we all had our own trouble growing up. some harder than others. essentially what you are saying, is that the product of $#@!ty people should be given a helping hand because they werent lucky enough to be born to intelligentpeople. Got it. So, what happens when these same kids grow up to again, not live productive lives and suck on the teet of of society yet again, and again, and again?

    I'm saying that people are products of their evironments. Children aren't born geniuses, they are molded. You can't blame those who have no say on where they will be born. It's like blaming someone who is innocent. Condemning people before they are given a chance to succeed is a horrible policy. You don't quit just because your not able to impact everyone you try to help; instead, you keep striving to better the situation. Eventually you will see a change that will make all the work worthwhile.



    yes, military will take you with convctions, I know this for a fact. your generalization is not realistic, nor my problem,your problem, America's problemyou can sill enter the military with a conviction. Show me someone that you can say has lived that. That has a rug conviction, a degree, and still no job. Its unrealistic


    It was meant as an example, not to be taken literally. The military will not take you with two or more felony convictions. A child under those circumstances can easily acrew at least two convictions deemed unacceptable by the military.

    http://usmilitary.about.com/od/marin...minal.-um-.htm

    This scenario is hypothetical and not really important, but similar events do occur more often than you think. The idea was for you to empathize with those individuals.

    True story: A cousin-in-law of mine was actually involved in a gangs since the age of 10. He was a lookout for a robbery that went wrong. He was left there by his so-called "friends" and was convicted of murder at age 14. He didn't get parole until the age of 25. He tried to better himself and went to school and eventually graduated from UCLA. He is now working as a car salesman after he trying over an over again to get into the military as well as his career field of choice.



    why, noone helped him, thats why he succeeded, PERSONAL ACTIONS. noone gave him any help, anywhere. The INDIVIDUAL is responsible for making their own fate, not the rest of us


    There were plenty of people that helped him. Your parents and my parents as well as other families in the U.S. all paid for his GI bill. Thats help. All the people he interacted with in his military and civilian life as well as professors at state-funded schools. Do you think that they did not impact his life at all? I'm pretty sure he didn't become wealthy just by himself. I think it's unfair and pretty callous to not even consider all those interactions and friendships as help.



    Nope, your wrong. Survival of the fittest is a product of its environment, Does a species adapt to meet its current needs to replicate. It used to be the strongest and fittest. those that werent strong or fast had to be smarter. Those that were not either died off. Then it was about food and shelter. directly. Guess what, hasnt changed much, except the means in which to get get it. Ever hear of Maslow?


    now its money, and how does one achieve money, by being superior athlete, less common, or very smart, more common. So your theory is flawed yet again.


    This is basically the only reason why I respond to you. Please stop spreading this misinformation. In Natural selection, a species already exists and individuals in that species do not evolve within their own lifetimes to meet their environmental situations. They die off as a species, not as individuals. Those select few who have certain, random (not intentionally selected) genetic variations that make them more viable - not necessarily the strongest, fastest or smartest - will replicate. For example, Bacteria are not fast, strong or even intelligent but they sure as hell have been successful. Bacteria have been around for about 3.5 billion years and will probably outlast us very easily in the future. You seriously need to read and understand natural selection before you try to invoke it to justify what you are trying to say. Learn the scientific method. I think you get your evolutionary science from Pokemon. You should read a science textbook so that you can truly understand and appreciate natural selection. Your take on evolution resembles that of the Lamarckian Theory.

    Maslow has absolutely nothing to do with natural selection. He is not a biologist. You need to read up on some new research because his is very dated and incredibly criticized. Presently, there are mountains of further research that dispel many previous claims. Do you know that Maslow was a colleague of Sigmund Freud, who no one credits or even cites his theories as relevant anymore? Do you know why? Or did you get your information from someone who was around in the 1940s and '50s? Theories always change, especially those in the sociology. For Christ's sake, they have, at the very least, three different schools of thought. Criticism is what makes science great. Scientific theory is always peer-reviewed and falsified, with the burden of proof lying with the proponent of the theory. Whenever a theory is reviewed and does not withstand scrutiny, it is scrapped, although certain false elements can remain within popular culture. Clenching on to failing theories causes progress to be delayed.


    hypocritical much?


    I don't see how, because all of my responses are to dispel the misconceptions on evolutionary theory that you are trying to present to justify your ideas. The theory of evolution stands on its own, that's why it is still relevant today and why Social Darwinism is defunct.


    so they should get paid what a CEO makes then. and get the same privelages? I mean, the mentally retarded are usually doing those jobs, a human that normally would not have survived even a hundred years ago...


    I never said how much they should get paid or if anyone should receive any special privileges. Just that they should be respected and treated with as much dignity as that CEO. I don't think you would call someone who picks up your trash or cooks your food retarded, would you?


    OK,But you are all for Socialism right?, whether you dont know it, or dont want to admit it, you are.


    I don't think it really matters. I hold certain values and ideas that would make you catogorize me in that group, but I'm still going to follow what I think is right, just, and true (all of these being relative to the individual).


    Oh, so again, my fault they didnt plan properly, OUR fault they were not smart enough to save, or have children that are smart enough/talented enough to take care of them, they get free healthcare that they probably shouldnt have gotten in the first place, and are living longer than God and nature intended.. these are all our faults because they made bad decisions......?


    People are products of their upbringing. Most people that live over 100 years of age are not anywhere near wealthy. Just look at Steve Jobs who died at age 56, a billionaire, great innovator, and bussinesman. Most of the world is dirt poor, but guess what, they keep surviving and procreating without great amounts of money, food, or help. Talk about an untapped resource. Why do you play the blame-game instead of actually trying to understand the situation or better yet, trying to alleviate it? You do not own these people and can't dictate their lives. You can only offer to help them if they seek assistance. This is why social programs are important. Or instead of letting these poor people suffer, take matters into your own hands; if you really think your ideas are true, why don't you use Bogota, Columbia, as an example and create an irradication squad. Have at it. Kill all the street children and the poor. I'm pretty sure someone who holds the same views will praise or even pay you for your efforts.

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