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  1. #376
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by pcockley Click here to enlarge
    Geez I was losing my faith and though I'd have to come around and fix it for ya Click here to enlarge
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    Only thing I'll let you do on my car is maybe wash it if your a good boy. Click here to enlarge

  2. #377
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dirty Dog Click here to enlarge
    Re-installed the JB4 G5 and whatta you know....problem fixed. Don't know why I removed it to begin with.
    Zero throttle closure and no timing drops. Don't have the logs on this laptop to post at the moment. I guess those COBB OTS maps are still a little rusty.
    It seems as though most of the Cobb maps are calibrated around a car with "broken in" waste gates. If you have newer turbos, you will most likely overboost as the duty cycle is too high. A simple reduction of the base WGDC table typically solves the problem...
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  3. #378
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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Sorry, I'm a total newb to atr. I was looking at the timing table for the ijeos stage 1+ agg st map as I want to get comfortable with atr before I actually mess with it at some point...it looks to me like that map advances timing from 3-5.5 degrees from 2500 to redline...is that right? Iow, is wot the highest load act values?


  4. #379
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sickem Click here to enlarge
    Sorry, I'm a total newb to atr. I was looking at the timing table for the ijeos stage 1+ agg st map as I want to get comfortable with atr before I actually mess with it at some point...it looks to me like that map advances timing from 3-5.5 degrees from 2500 to redline...is that right? Iow, is wot the highest load act values?
    Ideally, WOT should result in following the load target tables. However, there are conditions/tables that may cause the DME to follow a slightly(usually lower) load path.

    When setting timing targets do it with load targets in mind and if something goofy goes on then track it down.
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  5. #380
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    Ideally, WOT should result in following the load target tables. However, there are conditions/tables that may cause the DME to follow a slightly(usually lower) load path.

    When setting timing targets do it with load targets in mind and if something goofy goes on then track it down.
    Thanks rader. I'm not touching anything yet; just trying to learn how to read these tables for now. Question stated another way, if someone asks you what timing advance this map is targeting in the midrange at wot, how would you answer?

  6. #381
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sickem Click here to enlarge
    Thanks rader. I'm not touching anything yet; just trying to learn how to read these tables for now. Question stated another way, if someone asks you what timing advance this map is targeting in the midrange at wot, how would you answer?
    Cross reference engine speed(RPM) and actual load.

    For instance, in the OTS race map the DME is targeting:

    190 load target at 4Krpms equals ~12 degrees of timing advance

    180 load target at 6Krpms equals ~13.5 degrees of timing advance

    Click here to enlarge

    Something to remember is that timing target will follow ACTUAL load, so if you're targeting 190 load but only hitting 176 load it will target whatever timing corresponds to 176 load(by default it would then be interpolating between the 180 and 155 load columns.)
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  7. #382
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    Cross reference engine speed(RPM) and actual load.

    For instance, in the OTS race map the DME is targeting:

    190 load target at 4Krpms equals ~12 degrees of timing advance

    180 load target at 6Krpms equals ~13.5 degrees of timing advance

    Click here to enlarge

    Something to remember is that timing target will follow ACTUAL load, so if you're targeting 190 load but only hitting 176 load it will target whatever timing corresponds to 176 load(by default it would then be interpolating between the 180 and 155 load columns.)
    Thank you for verifying that I was reading these tables correctly and for the additional tidbit on how the DME rectifies differences between actual load and load target.

  8. #383
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    Is there anything I might be able to do with the WGDC to help with obnoxious levels of WG rattle, until I get my RBs in? I have it for a bit when accelerating off idle, and then seriously bad when letting off the throttle, pretty much all the way to a slow roll.

  9. #384
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    Does anyone know or has anyone tried something about VANOS tuning ?

    I am not very happy about the current low-end torque of my car after installing the RB turbos. I daily drive my car and I am not happy with the low-end torque in town when accelerating from 1600-1800RPM.

    I have dialed in the AFR and timing to optimal values for my (93) octane, wastegates stay completely shut during acceleration, so the only thing I could improve on for more low-end is VANOS.

    I read this great thread about it: http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...ow-it-works%85

    but even with this information I am a bit clueless Click here to enlarge

    Dzenno did a map for me that is better than my current ATR map (presumably by better VANOS tuning because all the other parameters are similar) but I hate the opacity of the PTF maps so I would like to have my own good ATR map.

    Thanks !

  10. #385
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    Does anyone know or has anyone tried something about VANOS tuning ?

    I am not very happy about the current low-end torque of my car after installing the RB turbos. I daily drive my car and I am not happy with the low-end torque in town when accelerating from 1600-1800RPM.

    I have dialed in the AFR and timing to optimal values for my (93) octane, wastegates stay completely shut during acceleration, so the only thing I could improve on for more low-end is VANOS.

    I read this great thread about it: http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...ow-it-works%85

    but even with this information I am a bit clueless Click here to enlarge

    Dzenno did a map for me that is better than my current ATR map (presumably by better VANOS tuning because all the other parameters are similar) but I hate the opacity of the PTF maps so I would like to have my own good ATR map.

    Thanks !
    First I’d log VANOS exh and int requested… don’t really need to do both req and actual since they follow each other closely… on the PTF map to see what they changed. Check timing between the 2 maps also… I suspect this is the main difference you feel.

    VANOS setpoint are lobe center point in crank deg so:
    Intake – higher the number more retarded (opens later)
    Exh – higher more advanced (opens earlier)
    NOTE: one is in neg deg (forgot which), 720 crank degrees is -360 to 360

    Anyway the higher the numbers less overlap (time when int and exh is open together). You can bear more overlap in the lower rpms due to less exh BP, and there could be some advantage in cyl savaging. Some things to keep in mind:
    Open the int earlier = more dynamic compression, but cyl fill may reduce… likely not a concern at lower rpms.
    Exh side gets real complicated in my head with combustion energy, evacuating the cylinder, energy for spool, etc.

    I think if you want to experiment in producing more low end torque my thought is open the exh earlier to increase spool energy and open intake earlier for scavenging and higher dynamic compression. But unless you are on a dyno, good luck in determining what’s working best.

    I've never experimented and just use Cobb's race mapping... a little too overwhelming in trial and error.

  11. #386
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by georgelb Click here to enlarge
    Is there anything I might be able to do with the WGDC to help with obnoxious levels of WG rattle, until I get my RBs in? I have it for a bit when accelerating off idle, and then seriously bad when letting off the throttle, pretty much all the way to a slow roll.
    I experimented with this... a post, maybe thread somewhere. You can adjust the very upper left cells in the 2 last WGDC tables to 0... forgot the names, like WGDC position and WGDC to WGDC maybe. This gets you to around 15% DC at idle which may or may not cure your rattle. I never could get it to 0%

  12. #387
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    First I’d log VANOS exh and int requested… don’t really need to do both req and actual since they follow each other closely… on the PTF map to see what they changed. Check timing between the 2 maps also… I suspect this is the main difference you feel.

    VANOS setpoint are lobe center point in crank deg so:
    Intake – higher the number more retarded (opens later)
    Exh – higher more advanced (opens earlier)
    NOTE: one is in neg deg (forgot which), 720 crank degrees is -360 to 360

    Anyway the higher the numbers less overlap (time when int and exh is open together). You can bear more overlap in the lower rpms due to less exh BP, and there could be some advantage in cyl savaging. Some things to keep in mind:
    Open the int earlier = more dynamic compression, but cyl fill may reduce… likely not a concern at lower rpms.
    Exh side gets real complicated in my head with combustion energy, evacuating the cylinder, energy for spool, etc.

    I think if you want to experiment in producing more low end torque my thought is open the exh earlier to increase spool energy and open intake earlier for scavenging and higher dynamic compression. But unless you are on a dyno, good luck in determining what’s working best.

    I've never experimented and just use Cobb's race mapping... a little too overwhelming in trial and error.
    Thank you very much for your pointers.

    Indeed I increased the timing for the Timing (Spool) map to around 15-16 degrees on acceleration and the car goes quite nicely now at low RPMs, without timing corrections. I also leaned out the AFR from 13.5:1 to 14:1 in that area, it seems to make a difference too.

    I will try to do some altering of the VANOS tables, maybe I can get some more compression at lower RPMs, my idea is that the BMW VANOS spool maps are done for 91 octane while I use 93 octane so I suppose I can squeeze a bit more from it.

  13. #388
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    Does anyone know or has anyone tried something about VANOS tuning ?
    It's what separates the men from the boys.

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    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    I experimented with this... a post, maybe thread somewhere. You can adjust the very upper left cells in the 2 last WGDC tables to 0... forgot the names, like WGDC position and WGDC to WGDC maybe. This gets you to around 15% DC at idle which may or may not cure your rattle. I never could get it to 0%
    Thanks, I'll take a look at that. My strategy up to now has been to adjust the volume knob on the radio. =)

  15. #390
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge

    I have dialed in the AFR and timing to optimal values for my (93) octane, wastegates stay completely shut during acceleration, so the only thing I could improve on for more low-end is VANOS.

    How can you tell the wastegates are completely closed during WOT? I just had my turbos replaced under warranty and I would like to find out.
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  16. #391
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by hkninja Click here to enlarge
    How can you tell the wastegates are completely closed during WOT? I just had my turbos replaced under warranty and I would like to find out.
    You only want the wastegates closed during spool up, once you hit requested boost the DME will then begin PWM the WGs to maintain boost.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by hkninja Click here to enlarge
    How can you tell the wastegates are completely closed during WOT? I just had my turbos replaced under warranty and I would like to find out.
    Log the WGDC (Bank 1) and WGDC (Bank 2) at WOT or whatever scenario you would like. If it is close to the maximum value then the wastegates are closed. But like rader1 said, you only want them closed during boost build-up.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    Log the WGDC (Bank 1) and WGDC (Bank 2) at WOT or whatever scenario you would like. If it is close to the maximum value then the wastegates are closed. But like rader1 said, you only want them closed during boost build-up.
    OK. I have JB4 ISO so if I run a log, where do I see WGDC reading?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by hkninja Click here to enlarge
    OK. I have JB4 ISO so if I run a log, where do I see WGDC reading?
    think is PWM and DutyC
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by enrita Click here to enlarge
    think is PWM and DutyC
    Click here to enlarge

    So, if you are boosting shouldn't it be at 0 from the beginning? @PWM & Duty Cycle. I guess this log is showing that the wastegates are not completely closed? Sorry, I'm kinda new reading these logs.
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  21. #396
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by hkninja Click here to enlarge
    So, if you are boosting shouldn't it be at 0 from the beginning? @PWM & Duty Cycle. I guess this log is showing that the wastegates are not completely closed? Sorry, I'm kinda new reading these logs.
    The wastegates are open by default, so the PWM/Duty Cycle indicates how "open" the wastegate solenoids are, which = how much vacuum is being applied to the wastegate to pull it closed. There is no way to log the actual position of the wastegate flapper, we can only log how much Duty Cycle is being used to pull it closed. Bare essentials are the higher WGDC = Wastegate more closed, but that is also dependent upon other factors, like back pressure.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    The wastegates are open by default, so the PWM/Duty Cycle indicates how "open" the wastegate solenoids are, which = how much vacuum is being applied to the wastegate to pull it closed. There is no way to log the actual position of the wastegate flapper, we can only log how much Duty Cycle is being used to pull it closed. Bare essentials are the higher WGDC = Wastegate more closed, but that is also dependent upon other factors, like back pressure.

    Thanks for the explanation. It all make sense to me now lol
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    The wastegates are open by default, so the PWM/Duty Cycle indicates how "open" the wastegate solenoids are, which = how much vacuum is being applied to the wastegate to pull it closed. There is no way to log the actual position of the wastegate flapper, we can only log how much Duty Cycle is being used to pull it closed. Bare essentials are the higher WGDC = Wastegate more closed, but that is also dependent upon other factors, like back pressure.
    What I find interesting in this is that on the Cobb there is a map that supposedly is for the position of the wastegate at various WGDCs. Not sure what it's used for. Is there a strong spring holding the wastegates open by default or is it just the exhaust flow holding them open by default? I ask because as flow goes up the exhaust flow itself will become a bigger and bigger force pushing the wastegate open. Unless there is also a very strong spring involved the forces due to exhaust flow will have a major affect on the position of the wastegate at a given WGDC. To me this means that different conditions will produce different wastegate positions for a given WGDC...yet that other table seems to imply otherwise. Anybody spend any time thinking about this?

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    @Carl Morris , there must be a spring or something holding the flapper open. When doing downpipes I played with the flapper (haha) a bit to see how hard it was to push it closed - it wasnt hard but took some effort. When Rob Beck tested the oem wastegate actuator, he came up with the following specs;

    OEM Full range of motion= .750"
    Motion at vacuum applications
    .300" at 2.5in/Hg
    .500" at 5.0in/Hg
    .700" at 7.5in/Hg
    >8.0in/Hg is Full locked

    Taken from http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?p=248188

    Maybe there is different wastegate actuators in use across the N54 platform and that table is a "calibration" for the different range of motion or vacuum required to move the flapper? Not sure, I'll have to open ATR and do some digging around. @dzenno@PTF@Rob@RBTurbo @VargasTurboTech @Josh@Cobb
    Last edited by lulz_m3; 06-11-2013 at 03:58 PM.
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    They should really all be set the same way from the factory but in reality there are some variations which at times require either some WGDC trimming in the map or some PID changes. Mechanically the only differences on the N54 turbos to my knowledge were to do with the actuator rod (6mm old style vs. 8mm newer style) but that's about it.
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