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  1. #301
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cstavaru Click here to enlarge
    The WGDC Base table does not depend on RPM. You need to log the "Boost Setpoint Factor" and "MAF Req. (WGDC)" and increase the values in the table where you have lower boost. Typically the last 2 columns on the last 2 rows in the lower right corner. Add like 4-5 points for 1psi. However you need to also log "WGDC (Bank 1)" and "WGDC (Bank 2)" to see if you really have more room for boost. You can also alter the WGDC I-factor table to try to force the PID system stay closer to the target (this is the last resort, if you get there I will help you but you need to post a log first).

    A cold air intake (as opposed to DCI) and a bigger intercooler with less pressure drop could help you run more boost but these must be carefully chosen.

    However I suppose you know that the turbos are way out of their efficiency range even as you run them now, so the engine backpressure is huge, not to speak about the turbo life and IATs (if you don't run meth).
    Okay so I'm listening to you guys and I just tapered the load off between 5000-6000rpm to match what the turbos were giving me, now I'm getting the same boost and timing but the boost delta is < 1psi...

    Thanks guys. Click here to enlarge I'll be back with turbos that can hold 18psi to redline...

  2. #302
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    Hi, thanks goodness for this thread to help make more sense on the various tables and how to use ATR. I have had the cobb on stg1 aggressive map for a while now and always wanted to learn more about tuning. The car is completely stock. I started looking at what the OTS maps are doing and comparing the stg1 aggressive map the to stg1+ aggressive map. Just focusing on the loads table for now. What I done was extend the load slightly from 3700rpm on wards and taper it off gradually as oppose to the OTS map where it steps down to 175, 170, 165 and so on. Trying to smooth things out a bit.
    Click here to enlarge

    Did some logging and what I am seeing is correction on multiple cylinders during a couple of the later pulls (short pullsClick here to enlarge) charged air temp got up to 122F, would that be considered hight? Any comments welcome.. Thanks in advance.Click here to enlarge
    datalog44.csv.zip

  3. #303
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ansch Click here to enlarge
    Hi, thanks goodness for this thread to help make more sense on the various tables and how to use ATR. I have had the cobb on stg1 aggressive map for a while now and always wanted to learn more about tuning. The car is completely stock. I started looking at what the OTS maps are doing and comparing the stg1 aggressive map the to stg1+ aggressive map. Just focusing on the loads table for now. What I done was extend the load slightly from 3700rpm on wards and taper it off gradually as oppose to the OTS map where it steps down to 175, 170, 165 and so on. Trying to smooth things out a bit.
    Click here to enlarge

    Did some logging and what I am seeing is correction on multiple cylinders during a couple of the later pulls (short pullsClick here to enlarge) charged air temp got up to 122F, would that be considered hight? Any comments welcome.. Thanks in advance.Click here to enlarge
    Could you grab a log of just a few 3rd gear pulls? There is A LOT of data to sort through on what you posted and most of it isn't helpful. Start logging immediately before and after you go WOT.
    Click here to enlarge
    MOTIV750, MOTIV P-1000 PI, MOTIV/FUEL-IT! low pressure fuel system, AEM EMS/COBB AP, Aquamist HFS-3, ETS FMIC, SPEC stage 3+ clutch/SS flywheel, BC Racing coilovers and VMR wheels wrapped in Hankook RS3s.

  4. #304
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ansch Click here to enlarge
    Hi, thanks goodness for this thread to help make more sense on the various tables and how to use ATR. I have had the cobb on stg1 aggressive map for a while now and always wanted to learn more about tuning. The car is completely stock. I started looking at what the OTS maps are doing and comparing the stg1 aggressive map the to stg1+ aggressive map. Just focusing on the loads table for now. What I done was extend the load slightly from 3700rpm on wards and taper it off gradually as oppose to the OTS map where it steps down to 175, 170, 165 and so on. Trying to smooth things out a bit.
    Click here to enlarge

    Did some logging and what I am seeing is correction on multiple cylinders during a couple of the later pulls (short pullsClick here to enlarge) charged air temp got up to 122F, would that be considered hight? Any comments welcome.. Thanks in advance.Click here to enlarge
    datalog44.csv.zip
    Hi,

    You have too many corrections to take care of so it's best that you do it yourself. Your load values seems incredibly high and unrealistic for your stock car. You have to realize that Cobb had a reason for those load tables the way they are.

    When you increase load, you have to reduce timing sometimes. However, Cobb OTS maps do create timing corrections without even increasing load so they need to be adjusted.

    If you see a timing correction, memorize the Load Act. and RPM values on the line where correction begins. Then go to the Timing (Main) table and reduce timing for that RPM and load. But when you reduce timing on one cell, you must make sure that all the cells above that cell on the same column have lower or equal timing than that cell, all the cells below it have equal or higher timing, (almost the) same for left and right. Basically you must make sure that the 3D graph stays "smooth" and has no spikes. So you may also need to reduce timing on the adjacent cells.

    If you have the "disable spool" option unchecked (so you are using the spool tables to help reduce lag - this is what stock cars do), you must also log the Fuel Mode parameter and work on the timing map depending on the Fuel Mode value: when it is 2 the timing is taken from "Timing (Main)" and when it is 20 the timing is taken from "Timing (Spool)" so you should choose the timing table to modify accordingly.

  5. #305
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    Thanks for the feedbacks! The log is a bit messy sorry. I'll revert back to the OTS map and do a few pull and report back as a starting point.

  6. #306
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    So I loaded the OTS Stage1 aggressive map and did a few runs.

    First one was a 3rd gear pull and the next two are 2nd-3rd gear pulls. It was on a bumpy back road near my place so kind of ran out of road (read: balls) to pull 3rd gear up to the redline Click here to enlarge will try again on a motorway next time.

    No timing correction on the first run, some correction in the early rpm on the second one and the third run looks reasonably clean.


    datalog_20130403.zip

  7. #307
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ansch Click here to enlarge
    So I loaded the OTS Stage1 aggressive map and did a few runs.

    First one was a 3rd gear pull and the next two are 2nd-3rd gear pulls. It was on a bumpy back road near my place so kind of ran out of road (read: balls) to pull 3rd gear up to the redline Click here to enlarge will try again on a motorway next time.

    No timing correction on the first run, some correction in the early rpm on the second one and the third run looks reasonably clean.

    Before i go any further i have a suggestion to make, pick up an aftermarket FMIC. Your CAT temps are already 110+ during a pull and it's only going to get worse as summer gets here. If you look through the timing tables you'll find the Timing correction(CAT) and Timing Total Cor(CAT) tables. These tables will automatically reduce timing when CATs get over ~110, this means you're going to be fighting a losing battle before long. A better FMIC will help to hold off heat soak for a longer period and it will also make it easier to squeeze a little more power out of the car.

    Your observations are spot on. You'll notice that during the second pull your timing corrections are either when load is ramping up(onset of WOT) or during a shift. You can help to alleviate this by cross referencing RPM and actual load and backing off the timing a little. Also, your timing isn't recovering post shift like it should. The stage 1 maps still use the torque intervention, i recommend going into the advanced parameters and disabling torque intervention by ignition and see if that helps. Once, you get those two things resolved you can start playing around with timing to see if there's any room left to make a little more power.
    Last edited by rader1; 04-03-2013 at 12:18 PM.
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    MOTIV750, MOTIV P-1000 PI, MOTIV/FUEL-IT! low pressure fuel system, AEM EMS/COBB AP, Aquamist HFS-3, ETS FMIC, SPEC stage 3+ clutch/SS flywheel, BC Racing coilovers and VMR wheels wrapped in Hankook RS3s.

  8. #308
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    Anyone had any success with any VANOS tuning yet?

    I just started to get curious about it. I guess I'm most curious if the Cobb OTS maps leave anything signifigant on the table for stock turbos, or if it isn't worth the trouble.

  9. #309
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    I just installed my AP, and have some questions regarding my logs and boost holding.

    setup - FBO, E60, OTS E30 map (with updated scalar for E60, 1.266)

    Looking at the graph, it meets the boost target but quickly dies on the top end. My goal is to reduce this gap between requested boost and actual.

    From my reading of this post and looking at the tables, it appears that I am getting the max post-PID WGDC (11.5 from WGDC ceiling table + the WGDC base value).

    I have the following questions:
    • What do the X and Y axes represent? (I can multiply them to get the values, but I don't know what they represent over time to the WGs)
    • Which cells should I change to up the base WGDC on the top end, so that the PID doesn't get pegged at it's max add of 11.5? (the answer to #1 above will likely help here)


    Thanks,
    -TG
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    Change is constant

  10. #310
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    Here is the associated log:
    Attached Files Attached Files
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  11. #311
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    Also, I've only had my AP for a day (brand new), but disconnects from the car every 1-2 minutes. I have to click "retry" and it always reconnects.

    Is this a common issue? This is very disruptive to long tuning/logging sessions.
    Change is constant

  12. #312
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    You'll need to log "boost setpoint factor" and "MAF request WGDC" to find where the adjustments need to be made. Also, I recommend changing the options to display ATR in standard units.
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    MOTIV750, MOTIV P-1000 PI, MOTIV/FUEL-IT! low pressure fuel system, AEM EMS/COBB AP, Aquamist HFS-3, ETS FMIC, SPEC stage 3+ clutch/SS flywheel, BC Racing coilovers and VMR wheels wrapped in Hankook RS3s.

  13. #313
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    You'll need to log "boost setpoint factor" and "MAF request WGDC" to find where the adjustments need to be made. Also, I recommend changing the options to display ATR in standard units.
    Good call on the units. Changing those made log logs of setpoint factor and WGDC make sense.

    I went ahead and just upped the last cell in "WGDC Adder (Airflow" to 15.5 and this worked. WGDC only peaks at 51, but it is holding the same amount of boost as my Procede, which I believe is the max it can on the top (5-6k).

    Here is a log of a 4th gear pull.
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  14. #314
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    How does your TPS look?
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    MOTIV750, MOTIV P-1000 PI, MOTIV/FUEL-IT! low pressure fuel system, AEM EMS/COBB AP, Aquamist HFS-3, ETS FMIC, SPEC stage 3+ clutch/SS flywheel, BC Racing coilovers and VMR wheels wrapped in Hankook RS3s.

  15. #315
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    I'm only logging pedal pos, not actual throttle (TPS act?). Should I be logging this? I wasn't seeing closures on the procede, so I never logged it.
    Change is constant

  16. #316
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    Yes, I highly recommend logging request boost, boost mean abs and TPS act. The most common issue(IMO) with Cobb is over boost causing throttle closures.
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    MOTIV750, MOTIV P-1000 PI, MOTIV/FUEL-IT! low pressure fuel system, AEM EMS/COBB AP, Aquamist HFS-3, ETS FMIC, SPEC stage 3+ clutch/SS flywheel, BC Racing coilovers and VMR wheels wrapped in Hankook RS3s.

  17. #317
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    What does the mean boost abs channel represent and how does that help is tracking down the source of the closure?
    Change is constant

  18. #318
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    The DME uses "absolute" pressures when setting targets(requested boost and boost mean abs = boost + atmospheric pressure.) What you'll do is look for where boost mean abs overshoots requested boost and causes the TPS to dip below 80%.
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  19. #319
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    Edit - I understand now.

    Is there a detailed user manual for these fields, including their nuances? (Sort of like this but better: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...pli=1&hl=en_US )

    Thanks
    Change is constant

  20. #320
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    Check out the "help" file in ATR. It covers several tables/parameters and their purposes(admittedly it could definitely cover a lot more than it does.)
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  21. #321
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    Yes, I highly recommend logging request boost, boost mean abs and TPS act. The most common issue(IMO) with Cobb is over boost causing throttle closures.
    Good call. I am getting throttle closures occasionally, going from 80% actual to 76-77% in some places (attached). I guess I need to dial-down WGDC in those areas. Is there a better approach?
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  22. #322
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    The way I like to handle the boost control is to set up the WGDC base table so that it's slight under target and then setu up the adder table to put some more DC if it needs it. That way you can (hopefully)avoid having to tweak it when the seasons change.

    So, yeah I would just dial the base table down to take care of over boosts.
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  23. #323
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    In the above chart, you'll see a timing big before rebounding suddenly. This happens periodically. How do I fix this? It can be felt as a big bog (sometimes longer than the above). There are zero timing corrections in the log and everything else looks fine.
    Change is constant

  24. #324
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    Hey ghost, the timing drop is due to overshooting boost. The issue on spool is that DME will target a lower boost setpoint, which is easy to overshoot... the only thing really is to reduce the base in this area. No way that I know of to change the setpoint. This isn't really classified as "spool" in the DME though, and potentially hidden tables that are related.

    I know Rader wants to discuss ATR, so here's my question. Below are the 2 throttle maps I use (different driver maps), which reach max load around 70%. Is anyone successful in pedal input 0-100%? I've only experimented with a few iterations, including the original stock mon factors which has values 0 to 1.0... but I didn't alter the x-axis at that time. Since I stack I do have 0-100% throttle, but I was hoping to do an experiment which needs 0-100% throttle in the DME (i tried 0-90% in this mapping).
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  25. #325
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    I've never played around with the throttle tables, i just REALLY like the way "stock" mapping feels. But that is an interesting experiment.
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    MOTIV750, MOTIV P-1000 PI, MOTIV/FUEL-IT! low pressure fuel system, AEM EMS/COBB AP, Aquamist HFS-3, ETS FMIC, SPEC stage 3+ clutch/SS flywheel, BC Racing coilovers and VMR wheels wrapped in Hankook RS3s.

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