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Thread: New Map sensor?

  1. #26
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    This is my dumb downed understanding. The ECU needs to know the boost at all times. The n54's map sensor cant read and provide accruate information north of 20psi. The n20 stock engine runs stock at higher boosts levels than the n54. So they made the sensor able to read higher boost levels reliably. So by swaping the sensor into the n54 engine, the engine can now see boost levels north of 20psi. Now, those folks with upgraded turbos that can push north of 20psi (the stock turbos cant push past 20psi as its way out of its efficiency range) and see where the engine/fuel/turbo's limits are instead of an arbitrary sensor limit.

    We are lucky this wasnt an issue earlier. This is exacly the same issue the GTR has, but it occurs much sooner when over stock power than the n54.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by newb335guy Click here to enlarge
    Is this only good for upgraded turbos or would this be useful for stock turbos. Terry or someone explain what this N20 map sensor means in regards to tuning, please.
    you could put it on a stock turbo car, problem is stock turbos already run out of breath at high rev on the extreme stock turbo tunes that are out. the dynos show it, and i'm sure it's felt if you don't short shift the hell out of it. its possible you could push extreme boost at first and then taper down as the revs climb like a gti but it wouldnt feel like your n54 anymore, it would be all torque with a huge drop off. the turbine can't take the exhaust gas volume, it develops what's called back pressure, and limits the output of the engine. some turbos upgrades offer a larger turbine (and of course, entire CHRA, etc). some cheaper kits keep the stock turbine and clip it for more flow but that further enhances the problem, although you gain a good amount of torque from the upp'd compressor wheel. it's all up to you, what kind of power band you want. with this new sensor, the future looks very good for everyone going (or has a) 'stage 3' (upp'd turbo(s)) on their n54. shiv made a post on e90 yesterday which i'll share:

    Click here to enlarge

    Finally arrived from Germany! As some of you know, the factory MAP sensor offer resolution up to ~21psi of boost. So with upgraded turbos cable of running 20+psi of boost, it had to go in favor of MAP sensor capable of reading higher pressure. And the MAP sensor from the new N20 engine (BMW 328) seems to fit the bill. Did some quick measurements and it looks like it's a 3.5-4bar sensor. Which means that is should be able to easily support 35 to 40psi of boost pressure. We should have the necessary firmware revisions in place to be able to swap in this sensor towards the end of next week.

    For the most part, it's a direct replacement to the original MAP sensor. Even the IAT response curve seems the same. The housing itself, however, needs to be modified to mate with the existing connector. Nothing a little dremel tool couldn't fix. For production, we should be able to make a little adapter harness so no fiddling should be necessary. And this also means we dont have to use the Procede Rev3's dedicated aux MAP sensor input. Which means we can use it for something more fun.

    Cheers,
    shiv
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by newb335guy Click here to enlarge
    Terry or someone explain what this N20 map sensor means in regards to tuning, please.
    It was already posted that it has a higher limit than the N54 sensor supposedly.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mithiral67 Click here to enlarge
    This is my dumb downed understanding. The ECU needs to know the boost at all times. The n54's map sensor cant read and provide accruate information north of 20psi. The n20 stock engine runs stock at higher boosts levels than the n54. So they made the sensor able to read higher boost levels reliably. So by swaping the sensor into the n54 engine, the engine can now see boost levels north of 20psi. Now, those folks with upgraded turbos that can push north of 20psi (the stock turbos cant push past 20psi as its way out of its efficiency range) and see where the engine/fuel/turbo's limits are instead of an arbitrary sensor limit.

    We are lucky this wasnt an issue earlier. This is exacly the same issue the GTR has, but it occurs much sooner when over stock power than the n54.
    Thanks Mithiral I appreciate the break down.

  5. #30
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    What I find interesting is that shiv said on e90 that he doesn't expect this new sensors to really benefit anyone with upgraded turbos. I think he said he will be impressed if they make over 540whp and the added difficulty is maintain the higher boost.
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    Don't just focus on peak HP and holding boost to redline. If you want to make more than ~20psi in the midrange, which even the stockers are allegedly (robb@cobb) able to do, you need to run a MAP sensor capable of reading the higher boost. The N20 3.5 bar (which can read ~43.5 psi absolute, aka about 29 psig at sea level) will be able to properly sense and relay boost information up to 29ish psig over the same voltage range as the OEM MAP sensor, where that range is rescaled to report the N20 sensed pressure either by a piggy or DME table. This whole topic isn't really very noteworthy outside of the slick OEM choice we now have for a high boost sensor.

  7. #32
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    And 540whp is a small feat? Every hp more than 500 with RBs is just cream on top for me...i made 490 STD highest in my car with procede race gas stock timing, meth and stupid AFR, so beating that with a nice solid flash now and hitting 500 consistently is all i'm looking for
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    And 540whp is a small feat? Every hp more than 500 with RBs is just cream on top for me...i made 490 STD highest in my car with procede race gas stock timing, meth and stupid AFR, so beating that with a nice solid flash now and hitting 500 consistently is all i'm looking for
    That's what I'm looking to do eventually as well. My Cobb stg2 agg is sickkk, I'm so happy with the performance of the car. If you can get 540 whp with rb's I'm done....that's all I'm looking for. Right now, as is, I have to get a LSD next bc I can't put the power down.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    I have to get a LSD next bc I can't put the power down.
    you know where to go Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    you know where to go Click here to enlarge
    Oh yea....just need to gather together a few more pennies :-)
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    And 540whp is a small feat? Every hp more than 500 with RBs is just cream on top for me...i made 490 STD highest in my car with procede race gas stock timing, meth and stupid AFR, so beating that with a nice solid flash now and hitting 500 consistently is all i'm looking for
    I want to be closer to 600whp since shiv has made over 600whp

    Putting the power down is a problem for me also since I don't have a LSD and my tire are rather cheap. When I would step on it at 60mph you could feel the car slipping and wiggling a little -.-
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    In case the MAP sensor signal is 0-5 VDC, why not use e.g. a standard GM 3 Bar sensor? http://www.robietherobot.com/storm/mapsensor.htm
    This is what I'll be using on the motorcycle, but there a 2 Bar sensor is suffucient.
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  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by R1000K3 Click here to enlarge
    In case the MAP sensor signal is 0-5 VDC, why not use e.g. a standard GM 3 Bar sensor? http://www.robietherobot.com/storm/mapsensor.htm
    This is what I'll be using on the motorcycle, but there a 2 Bar sensor is suffucient.
    It is a 0-5v reading. I believe the purpose for using the N20 sensor is that is bolts right in without issue and its more OEM looking than the GM sensors.

  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by R1000K3 Click here to enlarge
    In case the MAP sensor signal is 0-5 VDC, why not use e.g. a standard GM 3 Bar sensor?
    This is what I'll be using on the motorcycle, but there a 2 Bar sensor is suffucient.
    You can and he has posted photos showing he was running a normal 3bar before. I'm baffled why they need to remove it or go back to the OEM one after installing it, and why the need for the N20 sensor now, other than the novelty of it. The only firmware change for a boost sensor is the voltage to boost table in the firmware. Nothing to do with tuning tables, etc, other then the very slightly loss of boost resolution. Like I've said before he is from Venus and moves in mysterious ways I guess. Click here to enlarge

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    In terms of the oem tmap, when i talked to Rob@cobb we just tried finding something that would work nicely plug and play pretty much and just be rescaled...we stumbled upon the n20 one and decided to give it a shot first before going with an aftermarket one as it'd be nice/elegant way of doing it, its OEM Click here to enlarge

    As for Shiv going with it now, well, it wouldn't be first time he's copied something Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    In terms of the oem tmap, when i talked to Rob@cobb we just tried finding something that would work nicely plug and play pretty much and just be rescaled...we stumbled upon the n20 one and decided to give it a shot first before going with an aftermarket one as it'd be nice/elegant way of doing it, its OEM Click here to enlarge

    As for Shiv going with it now, well, it wouldn't be first time he's copied something Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Like I've said before he is from Venus and moves in mysterious ways I guess. Click here to enlarge
    Venus Click here to enlarge And you are from Mars i assume, right? Click here to enlarge

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    Honestly I wouldn't consider it copying, I think anyone would rather use an OEM part. Now, if he got the idea from someone else is another thing, but at some point the word would get around and he'd change it. Copying would be like him creating a new product that emulates another existing product. Copying an idea that was engineered and invented by someone is a little different than slapping in an oem sensor because it just became available. No reason to poke here although its funny to poke anyway.
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    Dude I was just kidding Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    Oh yea....just need to gather together a few more pennies :-)
    Better hurry up! I think the GB ends on the 12th.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Eleventeen Click here to enlarge
    Better hurry up! I think the GB ends on the 12th.
    Oh I know, I already talked to mike at VAC, I just landed in Vegas for a business trip and will order it tomorrow
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    Shiv said it requires some modification so if thats true it's just not a quick swap
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