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  1. #51
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    Now that I know who the dipsh*ts in the vid are - it makes much more sense why ESS would want Drew repping them instead

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jaypod Click here to enlarge
    Now that I know who the dipsh*ts in the vid are - it makes much more sense why ESS would want Drew repping them instead
    Drew isn't all that different, he just plays people on the forum differently.

    "Thanks so much bro! You're awesome bro, the car is great bro, bro bro bro."

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Drew isn't all that different, he just plays people on the forum differently.

    "Thanks so much bro! You're awesome bro, the car is great bro, bro bro bro."
    Yeah maybe - from what I have seen of the other two clowns though they are much more transparent and if you aren't an ESS fanboy and sipping they ESS Kool-aid they get butt hurt and go on the attack.

    Personally I dont get why they care how other people spend their money. I buy for my own reasons and expect others to do the same, not just buy cuz "all the cool kids are doing it"

  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jaypod Click here to enlarge
    Yeah maybe - from what I have seen of the other two clowns though they are much more transparent and if you aren't an ESS fanboy and sipping they ESS Kool-aid they get butt hurt and go on the attack.
    True, they take it to an extreme. If you have an ESS kit they post 13081058130850 thumbs up smileys and then hump your leg. If you have something else they want to convince you that your motor will explode and create a black hole sucking everyone and everything within a 100 mile radius into it.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jaypod Click here to enlarge
    ersonally I dont get why they care how other people spend their money. I buy for my own reasons and expect others to do the same, not just buy cuz "all the cool kids are doing it"
    They want to think their stuff is better. Whatever, stuff like this helps people see through their nonsense. Also great we have it up and people on the other forum still are ignorant.

  5. #55
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    True, they take it to an extreme. If you have an ESS kit they post 13081058130850 thumbs up smileys and then hump your leg. If you have something else they want to convince you that your motor will explode and create a black hole sucking everyone and everything within a 100 mile radius into it.



    They want to think their stuff is better. Whatever, stuff like this helps people see through their nonsense. Also great we have it up and people on the other forum still are ignorant.
    Click here to enlarge i never knew that.
    F10 M5 : ??????
    E90 M3: 11.2 126.7 with a 1.8 60ft Street Tires, Stock Interior,DSC on

  6. #56
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    I spent quite a bit of time with my tuner today and discussed this motor issue over and over. We have come to the conclusion that its not a oil problem but is caused by detonation. Some further research locally on two known motors has shown that the worse bearings are the ones that have had bad plugs which have been damaged due to detonation. I am not going to go into the tuning details of the vehicles or state of tune but that is a trend that has been seen.
    If someone starts looking on Subaru forums this problem also appeared as well in the late 90's and even closer to current time.
    If the rod is at a critical angle vs the crankshaft and it detonates it will cause slight bearing damage which over time will become worse. The crank is engineered to be strongest at the firing point and anything prior will start causing problems.
    Further research needs to be made with this theory but I think it is more plausable than oil starvation as in my books we have gathered enough evidence to create a trend. Plug gone = bad bearing X 2.

  7. #57
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by George Smooth Click here to enlarge
    I spent quite a bit of time with my tuner today and discussed this motor issue over and over. We have come to the conclusion that its not a oil problem but is caused by detonation. Some further research locally on two known motors has shown that the worse bearings are the ones that have had bad plugs which have been damaged due to detonation. I am not going to go into the tuning details of the vehicles or state of tune but that is a trend that has been seen.
    If someone starts looking on Subaru forums this problem also appeared as well in the late 90's and even closer to current time.
    If the rod is at a critical angle vs the crankshaft and it detonates it will cause slight bearing damage which over time will become worse. The crank is engineered to be strongest at the firing point and anything prior will start causing problems.
    Further research needs to be made with this theory but I think it is more plausable than oil starvation as in my books we have gathered enough evidence to create a trend. Plug gone = bad bearing X 2.
    I think you guys came to the wrong conclusion. Detonation in stock cars? Don't think so.

  8. #58
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I think you guys came to the wrong conclusion. Detonation in stock cars? Don't think so.
    In the two countries with the most questionable fuel qualities yes. Time will only tell but there is a link between the bad plugs and bearings which I will research further. I know of quite a few motors that have gone locally.
    Let's put this in the back of minds. So long everyone can dry sump and spend away.

  9. #59
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    There is a lot to learn. I appreciate the feedback and concern expressed here which is minimized on other forums....except m3cutter.

    Is there anywhere I can find more from VAC (e.g. Mike's post on page 5) regarding this issue? My wife and I were pretty sold on the E90M as a replacement for her A4 quattro.

    The comments from VAC and Sal from Evolve regarding the heads and cylinder #5 made me take a step back.

    Mike

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I think you guys came to the wrong conclusion. Detonation in stock cars? Don't think so.
    Just wanted to add: how many v8 owner actually log their cars to see what is happening with the timing? You should actually ask one of your tuner vendors to compare the update files from BMW vs the originals and see what has happened with the timing charts closer to the latest updates after the tuning protection was introduced. They might not say much as they increasing the timing themselves but worth a shot. We can also ask our local non vendor who sells his m3 meth kits what his findings are as I am sure he has more stock logs than anyone?

  11. #61
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by George Smooth Click here to enlarge
    Just wanted to add: how many v8 owner actually log their cars to see what is happening with the timing? You should actually ask one of your tuner vendors to compare the update files from BMW vs the originals and see what has happened with the timing charts closer to the latest updates after the tuning protection was introduced. They might not say much as they increasing the timing themselves but worth a shot. We can also ask our local non vendor who sells his m3 meth kits what his findings are as I am sure he has more stock logs than anyone?
    As much as i agree with you, it wont happen. That nonvendor is pushing a tune that adds timing on top of stock. If you statements are true about update differences, he wont be willing to post anything

  12. #62
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by George Smooth Click here to enlarge
    Just wanted to add: how many v8 owner actually log their cars to see what is happening with the timing? You should actually ask one of your tuner vendors to compare the update files from BMW vs the originals and see what has happened with the timing charts closer to the latest updates after the tuning protection was introduced. They might not say much as they increasing the timing themselves but worth a shot. We can also ask our local non vendor who sells his m3 meth kits what his findings are as I am sure he has more stock logs than anyone?
    As much as i agree with you, it wont happen. That nonvendor is pushing a tune that adds timing on top of stock. If you statements are true about update differences, he wont be willing to post anything

  13. #63
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    As much as i agree with you, it wont happen. That nonvendor is pushing a tune that adds timing on top of stock. If you statements are true about update differences, he wont be willing to post anything
    Considering he is peddling the meth which is the only thing that makes it safe in his opinion he might. Are you planning to do any extensive logging since you got the experience from N54? There is mention in shivs thread on the other side that some cars run negative timing adaptions as much as 3 degrees.

  14. #64
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    If there is an easy way to log it, sure. Im up for it. What can i use, BT scantool? I have a 3 vin already, but i think all 3 vins are taken, i gotta check

  15. #65
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    That was me with the adaptations. Most dont understand the timing logic for the MSS60.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by George Smooth Click here to enlarge
    Just wanted to add: how many v8 owner actually log their cars to see what is happening with the timing? You should actually ask one of your tuner vendors to compare the update files from BMW vs the originals and see what has happened with the timing charts closer to the latest updates after the tuning protection was introduced. They might not say much as they increasing the timing themselves but worth a shot. We can also ask our local non vendor who sells his m3 meth kits what his findings are as I am sure he has more stock logs than anyone?
    The targets are all exactly the same throughout.
    The base timing is all exactly the same.

    There are differences in other areas but nothing major. More sophisticated.

    The stock timing target for WOT are as follows on virtually ALL (60E-231E) versions of BMW programming:

    Click here to enlarge

    Now, does the setup actually achieve these targets?

    Well, we can see on 98 Octane fuel below some tests on a 2010 DCT car run on a MAHA Dyno. The ignition timing can be seen in pink. See on the right hand side in pink the scaling also.

    STOCK ECU.

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by George Smooth Click here to enlarge
    Just wanted to add: how many v8 owner actually log their cars to see what is happening with the timing? You should actually ask one of your tuner vendors to compare the update files from BMW vs the originals and see what has happened with the timing charts closer to the latest updates after the tuning protection was introduced. They might not say much as they increasing the timing themselves but worth a shot. We can also ask our local non vendor who sells his m3 meth kits what his findings are as I am sure he has more stock logs than anyone?
    The targets are all exactly the same throughout.
    The base timing is all exactly the same.

    There are differences in other areas but nothing major. More sophisticated.

    The stock timing target for WOT are as follows on virtually ALL (60E-231E) versions of BMW programming:

    Click here to enlarge

    Now, does the setup actually achieve these targets?

    Well, we can see on 98 EURO Octane fuel below some tests on a 2010 DCT car run on a MAHA Dyno. The ignition timing can be seen in pink. See on the right hand side in pink the scaling also.

    STOCK ECU.

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge



    These are just two examples I have pulled out.

    We can see the stock targets upto around 5000rpm are met. Above that they are always short by a minimuim of around 4 degrees.

    Those targets are hardly ever met on a dyno mind you because of high charge, inlet and coolant temperatures.

    If you can make the S65 run the factory targets (assuming the strategy is safe and only allows it when it's safe) then the engine will make a good amount of power.

    Now some of you may question the high targets at the lower > mid rpm's. If you do think that's high please start by studying the cam profile and the position of the cams at those rpm's.

  18. #68
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    The targets are all exactly the same throughout.
    The base timing is all exactly the same.

    There are differences in other areas but nothing major. More sophisticated.

    The stock timing target for WOT are as follows on virtually ALL (60E-231E) versions of BMW programming:

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...dedbc0_z-1.jpg

    Now, does the setup actually achieve these targets?

    Well, we can see on 98 Octane fuel below some tests on a 2010 DCT car run on a MAHA Dyno. The ignition timing can be seen in pink. See on the right hand side in pink the scaling also.

    STOCK ECU.

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...2550ca_b-1.jpg

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...87b170_b-1.jpg
    If I am looking at it correctly the timing is dropping 5 degrees off target in the 6000rpm range. At 5150rpm there is a knock event as well. This is with 98 Euro (93 US) so assuming things would be worse using US 91. Was the fan on the dyno appropriate for what I am assuming is a 5th gear run?

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    George,

    do not assume a knock event just because the target was not met.

    There are offsets for temperature (charge, inlet, coolant). The offsets are different at various RPM's.

    The ECU will automatically retard ignition by a certain amount based on above mentioned temperatures.

    It's most certainly not knocking in those tests.

    I should also mention that these tests are of our previous M3 and the knock adaption was not at all negative.

    The reason for not achieving those ignition targets was more to do with the 28 DegC inlet air temp recorded, as you can see on the graph.

  20. #70
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    George,

    do not assume a knock event just because the target was not met.

    There are offsets for temperature (charge, inlet, coolant). The offsets are different at various RPM's.

    The ECU will automatically retard ignition by a certain amount based on above mentioned temperatures.

    It's most certainly not knocking in those tests.

    I should also mention that these tests are of our previous M3 and the knock adaption was not at all negative.

    The reason for not achieving those ignition targets was more to do with the 28 DegC inlet air temp recorded, as you can see on the graph.
    Thanks for your input. We should ask Sticky to split this thread into another one as its heading in another direction.
    Is there any reason it is running so lean on the dyno?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by George Smooth Click here to enlarge
    Thanks for your input. We should ask Sticky to split this thread into another one as its heading in another direction.
    Is there any reason it is running so lean on the dyno?
    I should have also commented on your suggestion of knock being the cause. It's feasible on tuned cars. Very feasible!

    The AFR is on targets upto 5000rpm notice. The image also has AFR targets for WOT.

    Only at higher rpm's is it running richer than the target of 0.85. Upto 6000rpm it's bang on target of the standard calibration.

    Running 0.93 - 0.90 Lambda (13.67 - 13.23 AFR) is not lean by any standard upto 6000rpm.

    If you want to explore your ignition timing theory I can put up all of the stock targets for all M Power cars.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    I should have also commented on your suggestion of knock being the cause. It's feasible on tuned cars. Very feasible!

    The AFR is on targets upto 5000rpm notice. The image also has AFR targets for WOT.

    Only at higher rpm's is it running richer than the target of 0.85. Upto 6000rpm it's bang on target of the standard calibration.

    Running 0.93 - 0.90 Lambda (13.67 - 13.23 AFR) is not lean by any standard upto 6000rpm.

    If you want to explore your ignition timing theory I can put up all of the stock targets for all M Power cars.
    My comment about detonation being the possible cause was not due to BMW's timing maps specific. In most cases local to me its been bad tunes or in some cases wrong fuel for the right tune. A few good knocks that might have closed the plugs is enough to score the bearings and start premature wear. Any bearing with a slightist mark will start failing. Unfortunately unlike the N54 market which logs everything to death the M3 guys take their tunes for granted and as we all know there are many unethical tuners out there.

  23. #73
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    all looks on topic to me. discussion of failing motors, timing and AFr targets of stock Vs tuned Click here to enlarge

    Loving the info and discussion in here between you 2 though

  24. #74
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    Another topic most people don't pick up on - but since I have 100 or so dyno runs I noticed this: I picked up nearly 3 degrees of ignition in the same ambient air temps/coolant temps between my 16k old spark plugs and new ones. I investigated a power loss for a while and found the culprit. Call NGK USA with the part number of the OEM plugs and they will tell you a far different number of mileage they can be used then BMW USA.

  25. #75
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    Just to clarify, the timing was pulled due to intake temps and not detonation, correct??

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    Running 0.93 - 0.90 Lambda (13.67 - 13.23 AFR) is not lean by any standard upto 6000rpm.
    If you want to explore your ignition timing theory I can put up all of the stock targets for all M Power cars.
    I'd love to see that information!

    Informative posts like this (and the dyno results) reinforce and reaffirm my decision to switch from the other vendor to Evolve.

    Great stuff!
    Mike

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