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Thread: M3 Call-Out!

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    M3 Call-Out!

    Ok, so im not trying to be a dick in calling anyone out. But I have searched and searched and cant find a stock DCT Vs stock 6MT comparison.

    I found a modded e90 vs e92 and it shows exactly what I thought... The trans is not making a critical factor in acceleration.



    SO what I want to prove/show is stock for stock (for now) that there is negligable advantage for DCT vs 6MT S65/M3's

    and then ill find a fully modded (N/A) 6MT to run vs me, and then s/c'd.

    But for now. If you or anyone you know has a stock (or rear exhaust only) 6MT car preferably E92, Let him/me know id like to do a few easy/quick comparisons..

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    Do you have an M3 now or the 335i still? That DCT tranny is a BEAST...there is a big advantage to having one.
    Click here to enlarge
    Everyone has a photographic memory, some just don't have film.

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    well, I know they are different cars. It is the same concept though, a manual vs a dual clutch gearbox. It does make a difference, esp in boost applications too. You do not need to let off the gas to switch gears. Therefore the throttle body does not close and does not let any boost go into the atmosphere. Your foot is always depressed on the gas pedal. It's kind of no lift shifting for manual cars, except much faster.

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    i appreciate your help, but i dont see it making a big enough difference. whatever the 6mt loses in shift time, is more than made up for in less HP DT loss and gearing

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    I wish they made a DCT for the C63. I would jump on it!
    C63 Tuned Only 60-130 in 8.71

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    i have a friend with a stock e92 who will run you as long as he can meet you no more then an hour from long island

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    Ok, so im not trying to be a dick in calling anyone out. But I have searched and searched and cant find a stock DCT Vs stock 6MT comparison.

    I found a modded e90 vs e92 and it shows exactly what I thought... The trans is not making a critical factor in acceleration.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mowyr...0igg_xSicpQDED

    SO what I want to prove/show is stock for stock (for now) that there is negligable advantage for DCT vs 6MT S65/M3's

    and then ill find a fully modded (N/A) 6MT to run vs me, and then s/c'd.

    But for now. If you or anyone you know has a stock (or rear exhaust only) 6MT car preferably E92, Let him/me know id like to do a few easy/quick comparisons..
    Well I did run a stock 6spd e92 m3 when my c63 was stock. Outcome was the m3 kept up few cars. The dct m3 is a tight run with a stock c63. Does that help?
    C63 Tuned Only 60-130 in 8.71

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    I found a modded e90 vs e92 and it shows exactly what I thought... The trans is not making a critical factor in acceleration.
    The M3 6 speed has a longer 3rd gear which helps it from a roll. The DCT advantage is going from 1-2-3-4 due to the speed and frequency of those shifts. If spending more time in gear the advantage is lessened.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JonsC63AMG Click here to enlarge
    Well I did run a stock 6spd e92 m3 when my c63 was stock. Outcome was the m3 kept up few cars. The dct m3 is a tight run with a stock c63. Does that help?
    Exactly as it should be.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LAF motor sports Click here to enlarge
    i have a friend with a stock e92 who will run you as long as he can meet you no more then an hour from long island
    There you go...

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    How fast does m3 DCT shift?

    With wotbox NLS on my car I have consistently pulled off 65-70ms shifts, logged
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    How fast does m3 DCT shift?

    With wotbox NLS on my car I have consistently pulled off 65-70ms shifts, logged
    4-8ms Click here to enlarge

    Gives you almost a tenth per shift.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LAF motor sports Click here to enlarge
    i have a friend with a stock e92 who will run you as long as he can meet you no more then an hour from long island
    perfect pass me his info, or mine to him. id like to get this done. shouldnt be no more than 30-60 minutes worth of his time if he is a busy guy

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    4-8ms Click here to enlarge

    Gives you almost a tenth per shift.
    made up for by the lack of drivetrain loss Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    made up for by the lack of drivetrain loss
    No, it isn't. The difference isn't large enough to offset the time lost accelerating. Even a car with 20 horsepower will be accelerating faster than one with 200 if the one with 200 isn't accelerating at that exact same time.

    The manual IMO is stronger from higher speed roll due to its gearing and because you spend less time in each gear so there isn't as much time to pick up on a 3rd to 4th shift as there is from 1,2,3,4

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    well, i beg to differ and its a subject that has always bothered me, so i want to put theory in to practice and see how it comes out.

    just speaking in laymens:

    1.if you claim 1/10 per shift advantage for DCT
    2. Manual has what, 8% less DT loss? ona 414hp motor, that equates to 360ish hp for manual, while dct is 330ish
    3. accepted average is 1/10 per 10 hp yes?
    so that to me means, in ricer theory, that the advantage will be negated. im not saying its still in favor of dct for consistancy though

    and thats not taking the gearing into account.

    all im trying to figure out/show is exactly how it plays out when 2 stock cars got at it, MT vs DCT. I find it extremely stupid that a debate thats been goin on for years has not been tried and shown, in favor one way or the other. The only matchups on youtube are modded cars, with varying levels of mods

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    1.if you claim 1/10 per shift advantage for DCT
    It's close to that, yes. A DCT car will basically pick up close to a car length per shift. Just shift at the same time as a manual and see for yourself.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    2. Manual has what, 8% less DT loss? ona 414hp motor, that equates to 360ish hp for manual, while dct is 330ish
    No, 2%. Read my article on the subject.

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    so just 2% more than MT? well that does change things.seems a bit optimistic though. arent MT vs traditional AT something like 5-8%?
    is weight difference covered in that article?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    so just 2% more than MT? well that does change things.seems a bit optimistic though. arent MT vs traditional AT something like 5-8%?
    is weight difference covered in that article?
    Please read this in its entirety: http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...on)-vs.-Manual

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    i waS just about to ask where it is. i went through 14 pages of search results and didnt see it..

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    Hmm....lemme make a few calls...

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    I read these debates and don't honestly see the point. Here's what I mean by that.

    The best drivers in the world cannot manually shift as fast at the DCT, Tiptronic or whatever they call transmissions in the world. Thats just a simple fact, I then add to that the the same car without a manual trans in typically heavier its rare they weigh the same or less than their manual counterpart. I add to this that typically the automated trans will have more drivetrain loss when measuring hp at the wheels. So in my experience the car is up in weight and down in HP.

    That leaves the gearing in the final drive ratio and the actual gears themselves. So what I do wonder in seeing all the debates over DCT vs. 6mt is what are the final drive ratios and actual gear ratios per trans. If they are identical then the DCT gains its advantage in shift times, if they are not then its a combo of shift time and revised gearing to compensate for the power loss. Now I don't know this whole thing front to back so forgive the lack of knowledge but does anyone have the exact ratios and final drives respectfully on each car?
    We stay swingin...
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    Not a fair comparison IMO. JonMartin's car was a beast and up there in the 400whp+ range with custom tuned OE file way back in the day and drew's car was a basefile GIAC tune.

    We're gone through this exact topic before Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    Ok, so im not trying to be a dick in calling anyone out. But I have searched and searched and cant find a stock DCT Vs stock 6MT comparison.

    I found a modded e90 vs e92 and it shows exactly what I thought... The trans is not making a critical factor in acceleration.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mowyr...0igg_xSicpQDED

    SO what I want to prove/show is stock for stock (for now) that there is negligable advantage for DCT vs 6MT S65/M3's

    and then ill find a fully modded (N/A) 6MT to run vs me, and then s/c'd.

    But for now. If you or anyone you know has a stock (or rear exhaust only) 6MT car preferably E92, Let him/me know id like to do a few easy/quick comparisons..

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    i know the topic has been talked about before, but i cant find anything SHOWING one way or the other. and thats how I would like to start my entrance into the S65 community Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sledgehammer Click here to enlarge
    I read these debates and don't honestly see the point. Here's what I mean by that.

    The best drivers in the world cannot manually shift as fast at the DCT, Tiptronic or whatever they call transmissions in the world. Thats just a simple fact, I then add to that the the same car without a manual trans in typically heavier its rare they weigh the same or less than their manual counterpart. I add to this that typically the automated trans will have more drivetrain loss when measuring hp at the wheels. So in my experience the car is up in weight and down in HP.

    That leaves the gearing in the final drive ratio and the actual gears themselves. So what I do wonder in seeing all the debates over DCT vs. 6mt is what are the final drive ratios and actual gear ratios per trans. If they are identical then the DCT gains its advantage in shift times, if they are not then its a combo of shift time and revised gearing to compensate for the power loss. Now I don't know this whole thing front to back so forgive the lack of knowledge but does anyone have the exact ratios and final drives respectfully on each car?
    +1 Old school manuals are eventually going to be obsolete. Right now most high end cars are using DCTs. BTW I know the Dct m3 gear ratios are shorter then the 6spd.
    C63 Tuned Only 60-130 in 8.71

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JonsC63AMG Click here to enlarge
    I wish they made a DCT for the C63. I would jump on it!
    AMGs auto trans is one of the fastest shifting boxes ive ever seen. Ever driven an SL65? The thing will bark tires between gears like a '69 Nova...

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