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  1. #26
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    I think this secret code $#@! is a crap ploy by shiv to market his product. Little to no substance and a lot of fearmongering.

  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boom Click here to enlarge
    I think this secret code $#@! is a crap ploy by shiv to market his product. Little to no substance and a lot of fearmongering.
    I find that somewhat odd as usually Shiv and Adrian contribute good technical insight to back their point. For whatever reason, it is lacking on this particular subject.

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    shiv is full of $#@! in everything he says, adrian on the otherhand has information..

    both of them are on here, so why not come chime in and say something..

  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge

    both of them are on here, so why not come chime in and say something..
    I don't know, I would like to see the other perspective.

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  5. #30
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    he has not chimed in yet because he is just applying some of this really:

    Click here to enlarge

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    Hey Guys,

    I have only just seen this topic, and contrary to popular belief of some here, I (and Shiv also I am sure) do not check by here every few hours. I am lucky to check weekly unless I know there is a topic I am interested in going on. I wish I had more time to monitor forums, but I do not have much time. I know Shiv spends alot more time over at E90, which makes better sense for us.

    As for this hidden code stuff.... well if Shiv is talking BS, then he is talking it to me also, so it is not just markettting. I have implemented the changes to his request. I have not personally used a BMW tool to check it myself, but he has seen it and reported it to me. As a result I have made changes. I am not going into detail on what I have done.... it seems everything we do gets copied even if sometime later, so I think I am going to be reducing the detail I give out.

    What I can say is that I have implemented in a the Procede an extensive coms stack. Initially when we first did CAN, we just copied data that we sniffed, but as we added more features that all get done at the same time (Code clearing, logging of many parameters, dash display, reading of DTC button), we needed to implement an extensive multilayer communications stack that allows us to read/display map changes, and clear codes while not interrupting logging. This requires quite a bit more understanding of the protocols than just sniffing and copying.

    I can also say that we have a very good understanding of the diagnostic interface to the DME. There are things the BT tool does that we do not, but that is only because we do not have the need to and have not chosen too. We have plenty of capability left it the need arises. Having spent more time than anyone here actually working on this, I can say that I am confident we do the code clearing thing as well as BT.

    I find it quite amusing that people say you need a BT. You do not need a BT. Sure it does some great things that some users may want, but for the vast majority of users, if they had a BT, they would only ever use it for clearing codes. It is only the small minority of guys who have the time/interest who will do anything else. So if you have a Procede (rev 2), you have the code clearing built in, so even if they had the BT, I bet they would never use it. For the record, the BT can be used with the Procede, but only when the Procede is not using the CAN diagnostic interface, which means valet mode. In performance mode, the Procede uses that interface, and this mode, the Procede logs much faster and with much better resolution and display options than the BT.

    So when it comes to code clearing, and CAN, you can believe what you like. But given that Procede did CAN code clearing almost 18 months ago, and has been doing continual development on this with much success ever since, and those detracting from us have shown no evidence of their knowledge other than use of a third party tool, I know where the smart money is.

    Cheers,

    Adrian

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    Hey Guys,

    I have only just seen this topic, and contrary to popular belief of some here, I (and Shiv also I am sure) do not check by here every few hours. I am lucky to check weekly unless I know there is a topic I am interested in going on. I wish I had more time to monitor forums, but I do not have much time. I know Shiv spends alot more time over at E90, which makes better sense for us.

    As for this hidden code stuff.... well if Shiv is talking BS, then he is talking it to me also, so it is not just markettting. I have implemented the changes to his request. I have not personally used a BMW tool to check it myself, but he has seen it and reported it to me. As a result I have made changes. I am not going into detail on what I have done.... it seems everything we do gets copied even if sometime later, so I think I am going to be reducing the detail I give out.

    What I can say is that I have implemented in a the Procede an extensive coms stack. Initially when we first did CAN, we just copied data that we sniffed, but as we added more features that all get done at the same time (Code clearing, logging of many parameters, dash display, reading of DTC button), we needed to implement an extensive multilayer communications stack that allows us to read/display map changes, and clear codes while not interrupting logging. This requires quite a bit more understanding of the protocols than just sniffing and copying.

    I can also say that we have a very good understanding of the diagnostic interface to the DME. There are things the BT tool does that we do not, but that is only because we do not have the need to and have not chosen too. We have plenty of capability left it the need arises. Having spent more time than anyone here actually working on this, I can say that I am confident we do the code clearing thing as well as BT.

    I find it quite amusing that people say you need a BT. You do not need a BT. Sure it does some great things that some users may want, but for the vast majority of users, if they had a BT, they would only ever use it for clearing codes. It is only the small minority of guys who have the time/interest who will do anything else. So if you have a Procede (rev 2), you have the code clearing built in, so even if they had the BT, I bet they would never use it. For the record, the BT can be used with the Procede, but only when the Procede is not using the CAN diagnostic interface, which means valet mode. In performance mode, the Procede uses that interface, and this mode, the Procede logs much faster and with much better resolution and display options than the BT.

    So when it comes to code clearing, and CAN, you can believe what you like. But given that Procede did CAN code clearing almost 18 months ago, and has been doing continual development on this with much success ever since, and those detracting from us have shown no evidence of their knowledge other than use of a third party tool, I know where the smart money is.

    Cheers,

    Adrian
    Hi Adrian,

    My real objection with the discussion is the suggestion that the BT it not capable (technically) of accommodating whatever needs to be done to stay invisible. I also don't believe Shiv has the resources (as BT does) to properly analyze/verify the ECU and is prone to react based on rumor, suspicion, and out of the desire for marketing.

    Implementing a stack and managing CAN traffic seems a basic function of any system. Determining what commands to send, how they impact the ECU, etc, is another thing all together and requires intimate knowledge. For example doing something like disassembling the ECU's OS to track around where FF data is saved, and under what conditions, is not something I would expect to fall within your realm of expertise/ability. And no offense is intended with that. It's simply very specialized time consuming work and does not fall within the realm of embedded development.

    As far as code clearing is concerned, I've long speculated that the commands sent out by the V4 are simply the same commands sent out by the BT. I had a V4 here at one point and intended to verify but never did. But given the latest claims I do feel compelled to verify. And I am fairly certain I will find the commands match up with the BT's commands.

    I personally believe Shiv is acting off false/unverified information. But putting that aside there is also a logical flaw in the solution. Leaving the exhaust flap unplugged (as is directed to do) will cause 2F6C (exhaust flap disconnected) to go pending. And I presume the V4 polls and sends the delete commands when certain codes go pending. So if one is willing to accept that there is a method for BMW to retrieve say the last 30 stored/deleted codes (which I am not yet willing to accept given the history of thousands of customers) then one has to accept that BMW will pull up 30 instances of 2F6C. The huge problem with this method being that 2F6C is a modification code and there is a history of customers having warranty claims denied as the result of it.

    I may have mentioned it before but we do work closely with BT and a lot of man hours go in to this sort of thing. They are primarily a diagnostics company and it's their business to get it right. As I type this much is going on. The problem, of course, is that any technology they develop can be easily copied by others. Even I, with absolutely no CAN experience, was able to extract their command sequence without much work, using a simple CAN adapter and filtering program. So one of the items that is being worked on is better protecting their intellectual property, in addition to further diagnostic (invisibility) development.

    On whether or not V4 owners need a BT. The number one cause of codes (in my experience) is botched installs/removals. Being able to check/delete codes with the tune removed is worth the admission price in my opinion. Everything else (vehicle wide diagnostics) is a bonus.

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    Hey Guys,

    I have only just seen this topic, and contrary to popular belief of some here, I (and Shiv also I am sure) do not check by here every few hours. I am lucky to check weekly unless I know there is a topic I am interested in going on. I wish I had more time to monitor forums, but I do not have much time. I know Shiv spends alot more time over at E90, which makes better sense for us.
    Actually, you and Shiv check the board much more frequently than once a week, I have the logs to prove it Click here to enlarge Shiv actually checks very frequently (multiple times a day) and that puts a smile on my face. He mostly reads and doesn't post often for obvious reasons, this not being his home board. However, Shiv does often come in the chat and just talks with the guys off the record and I must say that is far more down to earth and cool than most people like to portray him.

    You and Terry can figure the rest out, just thought I would share the portion that I know.

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  9. #34
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    see, this is why i like it here, i can read both Click here to enlarge

  10. #35
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    Interesting, getting some good info from this.

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    Hey Sticky,

    I generally do a quick check once a week day... it lasts about 1 minute unless I see a thread subject that interests me. I think if you check the logs you will see I did not check for the last few days being the weekend. I had seen this thread before (late last week), but only when it was the first 2-3 posts. My once a week was referring to actualling doing more than going to the forum and taking a quick look. Of course today is different since I made posts, so keep an eye on it to see what response result.

    Hey Terry,

    Shiv's comments about the BT are that it cannot automatedly do what we do. It is possible to manually do the same though, but takes more effort. Although I have not personally viewed the evidence, Shiv has reported to me, and has no reason to BS to me. I do believe that the basic code clear that is done by BT and Procede does not clear all history of codes. I do believe with BMW equipment it may be possible to find evidence of these codes. Shiv had access to such equipment, and spent some time to work out how much history is kept, and our new mechanism is based upon that.

    It is no secret that BT release benefitted our CAN implementation. I am sure that BT benefitted from BMWs equivalent diagnostic system. The fact of the matter is that we are not doing discoveries of a new science or technology for the first time. BMW or a contracted party developed a protocol for doing this. The only possibilities for access to this protocol are to either get the info from BMW, or to reverse engineer it from a working system (be it BMW or BT or something else). Option A is not an option since BMW will not give you the info, so option B was taken by both BT and Procede, and many other aftermarket diagnostic readers. It should be said that the diagnostic interface is only part of what we do on CAN with the Procede. There is data that we sniff but do not send any messages about. This is very different to the way the BT works.

    On the CAN bus, you are operating a layer lower on the stack than the BT. It constructs messages, but they are then stuffed into CAN protocol messages on the PT-CAN bus. It took me some time to work out how it is done across multiple layers to remove the overheads and get to the original message when there is several layers that have done this. Small messages (single parameter logs etc.) are easy. It gets more difficult with larger messages. You can either just copy what you see another product doing (and not understand it), or you can work out how it works which then gives you the option of specifying the data resolution (number of bits) etc. To do CAN properly, there is quite a bit of work in just determining how the protocol works.

    I am not going to comment on the particular code we induce and the effects of that, as I am not the expert on that.

    I have a question for you Terry..... Given your logic for why BT is a requirement, if someone has the skills to reliably remove a Procede without triggering codes, would you say that the BT is necessary? Since your logic assumes that the code is most likely triggered in installation and removal? With the Procede you can clear any installation codes, so the only codes you can't clear are if you cause them in removal? It really is not that hard to remove the Procede without causing a code, and if you did cause a code it is normally evident so you can reinstall to remove the codes again.

    Cheers,

    Adrian

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    I have a question for you Terry..... Given your logic for why BT is a requirement, if someone has the skills to reliably remove a Procede without triggering codes, would you say that the BT is necessary? Since your logic assumes that the code is most likely triggered in installation and removal? With the Procede you can clear any installation codes, so the only codes you can't clear are if you cause them in removal? It really is not that hard to remove the Procede without causing a code, and if you did cause a code it is normally evident so you can reinstall to remove the codes again.
    I'm a pragmatic guy and the V4 diagnostics solution is satisfactory for many. But I also don't see it as a black and white issue. People do make mistakes with removal. In cases where the battery has been disconnected it is also advisable to clear all modules. But to answer your question I would put having no diagnostics is on one side of the scale and having the ability to do full diagnostics on a 100% unmodified car is on the other side of the scale. Somewhere in between towards the right is the integrated tune/diagnostic option.

  13. #38
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    Copied from elsewhere:

    Hey guys,

    There was some speculation last week about the JB3 and BT cable as far as code clearing is concerned. It got to the point that another popular tuner claimed they had developed some proprietary way to keep their tune hidden that the JB3/BT was not capable of. So we looked in to it and I wanted to make a little follow up thread for JB3/BT customers.

    We rigged up “tune x” using a CAN sniffer (in this case ironically implemented with a BT basic cable) to monitor all traffic between the tune and the ECU. The setup was then put through a battery of tests and all communications between the tune and the ECU recorded. A sample of that data is below.

    Some observations were noted:

    1) The ECU code clear commands sent are identical to the BT commands and there was evidence that they were simply copied from the BT.
    2) The tune is simply configured to read/delete all ECU codes on some regular time interval.
    3) A few things were present and/or missing related to code clearing that might make this implementation less invisible than a basic BT read/delete.
    4) Some other potential detection vulnerabilities not related to code clearing were observed that are not present in the JB3.

    As is always the case I don’t claim to have all the answers and there is a lot of data I’m not allowed to share. But I can say with confidence that BT remains on the cutting edge of N54 diagnostics. They work very closely with BMS and their global resources to identify and mitigate detection risks on an ongoing basis. The benefit to you the N54Tuning/BMS/BT customer is not only a hefty discount on the BT diagnostics tool when bought with a new tune but also a dedicated team of engineers continually working on updates for it.
    Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by LostMarine; 05-28-2010 at 09:48 PM.

  14. #39
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    ^ Awesome post but copy the images and re-attach as the link through the proxy is not correct Click here to enlarge

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    don't need the pics, ill just take them out..

  16. #41
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    Interesting stuff. Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Interesting stuff. Click here to enlarge
    Is there any proof of the Procede commands being the same as BT commands for clearing codes?

    That seems to mean Vishnu looked at BT codes and just copied them directly? Not saying that is what is going on but it seems that is being implied?

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    i tried attaching through BB but it only added attachment not actual photo's so here they are again: **nevermind, they just came up . enjoy Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

  19. #44
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    It looks like Mike summed it up well. So I'll only add it's unfortunate that things always seem to need to come down to this level. We would have been perfectly happy letting Shiv's customers believe they were getting something "special" had he not dragged us in to it with the negative FUD shenanigans.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 05-28-2010 at 10:31 PM.

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    Its so funny to watch the fanboi's jump around over there,if only they knew about this place Click here to enlarge "Mike stop telling us the BT is part of the JB3 when it not!" I would have said, "it is when you buy it at a discounted price in the JB3/BT package, and i think you should be asking why your tuner is copying things from BT again, and claiming them as their own, again.. And still not doing a very good job of it.."
    i just don't know why noone answers it over here?

    Kinda reminds me of when Shiv tried "sniffing" the JB3.. i guess he gave up on that after he found nothing wrong with it, and no "bad data" to play up Click here to enlarge

    I believe this was posted in response to the timing of commands sent:

    Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by LostMarine; 05-29-2010 at 09:56 AM.

  21. #46
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    ^+1 Sometimes i wish the guys from stride gum showed up and take away there PROcede's.


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    Its so funny to watch the fanboi's jump around over there,if only they knew about this place Click here to enlarge "Mike stop telling us the BT is part of the JB3 when it not!" I would have said, "it is when you buy it at a discounted price in the JB3/BT package, and i think you should be asking why your tuner is copying things from BT again, and claiming them as their own, again.. And still not doing a very good job of it.."
    i just don't know why noone answers it over here?

    Kinda reminds me of when Shiv tried "sniffing" the JB3.. i guess he gave up on that after he found nothing wrong with it, and no "bad data" to play up Click here to enlarge

    I believe this was posted in response to the timing of commands sent:

    Click here to enlarge
    Explain this picture to me please, I'm not familiar with those codes.

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    That is a log of commands that the PROcede sends via the CANBUS to the DME to clear codes, etc. It does most of its work that way, e.g. map switching, code clearing, etc. It sends a clear code command every 120 seconds to deal with catless dps for example. Shiv claims all sorts of bull$#@! about secret stuff the PROcede does but when you actually look at the data sent to the dme from the tune there can be no bull$#@!. It is what it is. It's actually a pretty good tune. His crap scare tactics are what pisses most people off.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boom Click here to enlarge
    That is a log of commands that the PROcede sends via the CANBUS to the DME to clear codes, etc. It does most of its work that way, e.g. map switching, code clearing, etc. It sends a clear code command every 120 seconds to deal with catless dps for example. Shiv claims all sorts of bull$#@! about secret stuff the PROcede does but when you actually look at the data sent to the dme from the tune there can be no bull$#@!. It is what it is. It's actually a pretty good tune. His crap scare tactics are what pisses most people off.
    +1

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boom Click here to enlarge
    That is a log of commands that the PROcede sends via the CANBUS to the DME to clear codes, etc. It does most of its work that way, e.g. map switching, code clearing, etc. It sends a clear code command every 120 seconds to deal with catless dps for example. Shiv claims all sorts of bull$#@! about secret stuff the PROcede does but when you actually look at the data sent to the dme from the tune there can be no bull$#@!. It is what it is. It's actually a pretty good tune. His crap scare tactics are what pisses most people off.
    Yep, he lies so much about his product I wouldn't trust him to tune a Schwinn, let alone my car...

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