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    E85? Whose done it?

    So I guess my next question is who has played around with e85? Are our injectors even big enough? Just looking for more info!

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    i do not think anyone has done it on the n54 platform yet.

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    Yeah?? Any particular reason why?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jacobs323i Click here to enlarge
    i do not think anyone has done it on the n54 platform yet.
    you sure about that? just cause its not on forums doesnt mean it hasnt been done Click here to enlarge

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    a few people have used E85 on this car...check n54tech...i wouldn't recommend it though but without ppl trying/testing we'd never know anything

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    I havent tried this nor do I know anyone that has. But some things come to mind.

    The duty cycle of these injectors get maxed out near 450 whp in this car. Because the AFR of E85 is around 9:1, it requires about 30% more fuel. So any benefit you will see from E85 will only be offset by the fact that we will be injector limited to 380-400 whp with stock inejctors. If you plan on doing a poor mans fuel supplement by running maxed out injectors and a secondary meth or E85 injection system, that might work but it's risky.
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    I havent tried this nor do I know anyone that has. But some things come to mind.

    The duty cycle of these injectors get maxed out near 450 whp in this car. Because the AFR of E85 is around 9:1, it requires about 30% more fuel. So any benefit you will see from E85 will only be offset by the fact that we will be injector limited to 380-400 whp with stock inejctors. If you plan on doing a poor mans fuel supplement by running maxed out injectors and a secondary meth or E85 injection system, that might work but it's risky.
    I wouldn't be so sure about the 450whp injector duty cycle claim...IMO that stems from what we know from tuning with the piggybacks...

    OP, if you'd like to do it right I think you can fill up on E85, hit the dyno and tune for lambda instead of AFR...shoot for 0.8 and off you go...try both a piggy fuel control approach and a flash one and see what works out better for you

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    you wouldn't have to tune AFR... pump target is fine. The only concern, as far as tuning, is your fuel trims due to the increased fuel volume. Watch these and you'll be ok. You would need a tune that can change fueling though, so piggy is best bet.

    There's guys running 50% E85 and >400rwhp without issues so far.

    Any long term hardware issues is unknown now... but 1 guy I know has been doing it every fill up for at least 6 months I think.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    you wouldn't have to tune AFR... pump target is fine. The only concern, as far as tuning, is your fuel trims due to the increased fuel volume. Watch these and you'll be ok. You would need a tune that can change fueling though, so piggy is best bet.

    There's guys running 50% E85 and >400rwhp without issues so far.

    Any long term hardware issues is unknown now... but 1 guy I know has been doing it every fill up for at least 6 months I think.
    How is a pump gas target fine? Stock o2 sensors are calibrated for gasoline's stoich of 14.7 not 9? If you did that wouldn't you be running lean? E85 has much better knock suppression than your 91-93 pump gas obviously but I don't get the AFR comment..

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    How is a pump gas target fine? Stock o2 sensors are calibrated for gasoline's stoich of 14.7 not 9? If you did that wouldn't you be running lean? E85 has much better knock suppression than your 91-93 pump gas obviously but I don't get the AFR comment..
    AFR is just a calculation based on lambda which is constant per different fuels. So, if you pump target is 12:1 to the tune this would be around 0.8 which holds constant no mater the stoich of a fuel.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    AFR is just a calculation based on lambda which is constant per different fuels. So, if you pump target is 12:1 to the tune this would be around 0.8 which holds constant no mater the stoich of a fuel.
    Ok. So how does that equate to the mass of fuel that you'd need to inject with E85 vs. gasoline? How did DBFIU arrive at the 30% more volume required with E85 than with gasoline?

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    a lot of guys are doing 50/50 mixes of E85/93 and are claiming its faster. Google "E85 n54"
    2008 BSM 335i coupe - JB4, BMS intake, meth : Weekend warrior.

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    i know a guy who ran it, said it ran amazing, great timing logs, but his hpfp failed after about two weeks, could be unrelated, but thats what he said was to blame

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    Ok. So how does that equate to the mass of fuel that you'd need to inject with E85 vs. gasoline? How did DBFIU arrive at the 30% more volume required with E85 than with gasoline?
    You need more E85 to mix with the air volume which stays constant. 1 molecule of E85 needs 9 molecules of air. This is due to energy potential, HC structure. AFR and fuel volume are really 2 separate tuning parameters.

    A WB calculates resistance of the unburned A/F mixture, which is based on available or lack of O2 in the exhaust. Stoich at 14.7:1 or 9:1 will give the same voltage potential across the WB contacts.

    Sorry, I may not be the best at explaining.

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    Well see I'm glad I brought this up Click here to enlarge I saw some people doing it on n54tech but figured I'd start it fresh over here in the discussions. Why can't we just get bigger injectors and not worry bout maxing out the duty cycles? Assuming they have them available?

    I'm very green to tuning specially BMW's lol... so would this be something you could tune for with Cobb flashes once ATR is out? have a e85 map? Although honestly with the way this car makes power I'd be worried about the tranny. Most Subbies and such tune for e85 cause of the torque gains but they also dont run 400+ tq on a stock clutch lol... and the Evo's with their MR have issues with the clutch discs after 400's as well.

    So I guess the question would be if the tranny AT / Man could handle the big torque increase?

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    The lambdas would be just fine due closed loop. The volume is the problem, as e85 is needed a lot more due less energy content and the in-tank fuel pump is not able to pump enough of it to break any WHP records.

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    Good explanation Josh, thanks..I'm actually trying to learn more on the topic of using different fuels and mixing such as with meth injection


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    You need more E85 to mix with the air volume which stays constant. 1 molecule of E85 needs 9 molecules of air. This is due to energy potential, HC structure. AFR and fuel volume are really 2 separate tuning parameters.

    A WB calculates resistance of the unburned A/F mixture, which is based on available or lack of O2 in the exhaust. Stoich at 14.7:1 or 9:1 will give the same voltage potential across the WB contacts.

    Sorry, I may not be the best at explaining.

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    I run 15 ltr of e85 with 45 ltr of vpower 99 on a beta stage 3 cobb map and got fuel mixture 1/2 codes while dzenno didnt. All my sensor, injectors, hpfp and sparkplug are new so i guess e85 does make the ecu upset on high power levels even if closed loop.
    07 335i AT - MOTIV 750 - MHD BMS E85 - BMS PI - JB4G5 - Okada Coils - NGK 5992 Plugs - Helix IC - Stett CP - Custom midpipes with 100 HJS Cats - Bastuck Quad - PSS10 - QUAIFE LSD - BMS OCC - Forge DVs - AR OC - ALCON BBK - M3 Chassi - Dinan CP - Velocity M rear Toe arms - Advan RZ-DF - LUX H8 - Level 10 AT upgrade
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by enrita Click here to enlarge
    I run 15 ltr of e85 with 45 ltr of vpower 99 on a beta stage 3 cobb map and got fuel mixture 1/2 codes while dzenno didnt. All my sensor, injectors, hpfp and sparkplug are new so i guess e85 does make the ecu upset on high power levels even if closed loop.
    enrita, did you leave your procede plugged in? i noticed that with the jb4 plugged in on my car even on the passthrough map (map0) if I try doing runs while having the Cobb AP plugged in and logging that there will be some weird issues that happen...everything is fine if I don't plug the AP in...i asked Terry about it and he says that he'll work it out in the next JB firmware release so the AP and JB don't collide as currently they seem to use the same channel/port/whatever it is when they register as nodes on the canbus (i think)...i would also get strange codes sometimes if both the AP was plugged in and was logging a run and the JB4 is plugged in and sitting in map0...hopefully its resolved soon so i can run both..

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    enrita, did you leave your procede plugged in? i noticed that with the jb4 plugged in on my car even on the passthrough map (map0) if I try doing runs while having the Cobb AP plugged in and logging that there will be some weird issues that happen...everything is fine if I don't plug the AP in...i asked Terry about it and he says that he'll work it out in the next JB firmware release so the AP and JB don't collide as currently they seem to use the same channel/port/whatever it is when they register as nodes on the canbus (i think)...i would also get strange codes sometimes if both the AP was plugged in and was logging a run and the JB4 is plugged in and sitting in map0...hopefully its resolved soon so i can run both..
    No procede at all doing those runs. Dont think you can even run cobb with procede on map 0.
    I just put the procede back and car runs very well and wheelspin in 3rd... I think cobb needs to work on upgraded turbos at maps since mt runs very well but at is to weak.
    07 335i AT - MOTIV 750 - MHD BMS E85 - BMS PI - JB4G5 - Okada Coils - NGK 5992 Plugs - Helix IC - Stett CP - Custom midpipes with 100 HJS Cats - Bastuck Quad - PSS10 - QUAIFE LSD - BMS OCC - Forge DVs - AR OC - ALCON BBK - M3 Chassi - Dinan CP - Velocity M rear Toe arms - Advan RZ-DF - LUX H8 - Level 10 AT upgrade
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by enrita Click here to enlarge
    No procede at all doing those runs. Dont think you can even run cobb with procede on map 0.
    I just put the procede back and car runs very well and wheelspin in 3rd... I think cobb needs to work on upgraded turbos at maps since mt runs very well but at is to weak.
    i ran cobb with procede in map0 a bunch of times...the only thing is procede, even in passthrough mode (map0), still biases widebands...just LOVES doing that no matter what Click here to enlarge

    Run whatever works the best for you man Click here to enlarge

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    Gonna run some 60-130 times and see how it goes, wanna make sure my engine is delivering
    07 335i AT - MOTIV 750 - MHD BMS E85 - BMS PI - JB4G5 - Okada Coils - NGK 5992 Plugs - Helix IC - Stett CP - Custom midpipes with 100 HJS Cats - Bastuck Quad - PSS10 - QUAIFE LSD - BMS OCC - Forge DVs - AR OC - ALCON BBK - M3 Chassi - Dinan CP - Velocity M rear Toe arms - Advan RZ-DF - LUX H8 - Level 10 AT upgrade
    Click here to enlarge

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    So we can mix e85 and regular gas in the tank and it'll be fine then? Thats the consensus yeah? Mix in 4 gal of e85 and fill the rest with 91 (socal bleh) and it'll be fine?


    Dzenno you're running JB w/ Cobb because of meth right? If cobb integrates meth will you still run JB?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by joshj84 Click here to enlarge
    So we can mix e85 and regular gas in the tank and it'll be fine then? Thats the consensus yeah? Mix in 4 gal of e85 and fill the rest with 91 (socal bleh) and it'll be fine?

    Dzenno you're running JB w/ Cobb because of meth right? If cobb integrates meth will you still run JB?
    Mostly, yes...If Cobb integrates meth I won't run a hybrid tune anymore but will probably keep the jb4 plugged in for gauge hijacking and shift light as I love those features, unless Cobb comes out with it as well...we'll see..

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    What do you mean gauge hijacking and shift light? (Sorry like i said a bit green on BMW's)

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