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  1. #26
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    I would like to know who tried?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by unfor Click here to enlarge
    I would like to know who tried?
    a small company in mid-forida, VIP Tuning if i remember right. they had the first top mounted single. since disbanded, the company's employee's have moved to other places i believe.

    a large company, AMS, promised us a single (in addition to their clipped upgrade which never sold), but didnt pull through. They are selling or sold the car.

    and im sure some companies we have not heard of, or don't bother posting until its complete, have tried and failed. maybe with the standback you have a better shot. if i remember correctly, VIP's issue was the external wastegate on vacuum operated wastegate boost logic. it kept limping under load. you seem to have resolved that issue (we hope) and are looking past it to the next coming hurdles. as i said i will stay tuned to the thread, please dont disappoint us Click here to enlarge
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  3. #28
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    Oh no, I remember VIP. They managed to mount that turbo but were a bunch of clowns/crooks.

  4. #29
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    VIP Tuning did a top mount. Thats the problem. There is no way to make an equal length manifold as a top mount setup. There is simply not enough space. As cool as it would look, it wont work.

    Ah $#@!, I said too much.

    But seriously, we won't ever see a top mount for this car. Impossible to get the runners even close in length. We considered this but it was impossible.
    Last edited by ScrotieMcBoogerBalls; 05-05-2010 at 07:58 PM.

  5. #30
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    Interesting project, and a real pandoras box in regards to keeping the DME happy. Good luck with the engine control side of it. That will be the hardest part, and reading between the lines, I am not sure you have realised that. I am sure CP-E are well capable of controlling the boost using a more traditional boost driven wastegate, but the hard part is going to be keeping the DME happy (which expects to see certain boost levels at certain operating conditions) and at the same time keeping the tune right (timing and fueling and throttle) which are based on the same set of inputs. It will be easier with a supplimentry fueler as you are using... but still difficult.

    Nice Project!!

    Adrian

  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    Interesting project, and a real pandoras box in regards to keeping the DME happy. Good luck with the engine control side of it. That will be the hardest part, and reading between the lines, I am not sure you have realised that. I am sure CP-E are well capable of controlling the boost using a more traditional boost driven wastegate, but the hard part is going to be keeping the DME happy (which expects to see certain boost levels at certain operating conditions) and at the same time keeping the tune right (timing and fueling and throttle) which are based on the same set of inputs. It will be easier with a supplimentry fueler as you are using... but still difficult.

    Nice Project!!

    Adrian
    I'm not as familiar with how the CPE is programmed but I believe they model the DME target and feed it back in to the ECU. Perhaps taking cues from the DME solenoid duty cycle output.

    It's different than how the JB3 is configured and of course different than the approach you've taken. But if their approach is viable for the factory turbos (which it appears to be as they have customers suggesting it works) I see no reason it won't be viable running a traditional wastegate.

  7. #32
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    Why is the wastegate such an issue?

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  8. #33
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    I am not saying it cannot work, and I agree with your assessment of how they model DME target (input from DME duty). The challenges I see here are that the factory turbos make significant boost at low RPM, and I doubt this setup will. The factory DME targetting is based on stock turbos. So I anticipate a situation where the DME expects 7psi, but this turbo arrangement produces 1-2psi. So the Standback needs to tell the DME there is 7 psi to avoid under boost code, but as a result of doing this it will effect the DME fuelling, ignition and cam position. I anticipate the challenges in tuning will be in the engine operation range where the new turbo arrangement does not make as much boost as the stock setup.

    Since they are putting extra injectors in, I wonder if it would be easier to just put bigger injectors in with a suitable throttle arrangement and go standalone?? You would have to clean up a whole bunch of lights and warnings on the dash, but the engine would run better for it.

    I have thought about this scenario since doing V4 Procede. I do have some ideas for how to get around it, but have not gone further waiting for a car to test on.

    I anticipate this turbo on this engine would hit full boost around 3000-3500?? Having never run a GT37TS on a N54 I cannot say... just judging based on engine capacity and turbo size.

    Adrian

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Why is the wastegate such an issue?
    Wastegate is an issue for any setup utilising the DME boost control. The stock boost control uses vacuum stored in some cannisters to move the wastegates. This vaccum is available at all times and wastegates can be moved to any position at any time. The external wastegate (unless it is custom) will use boost to move the wastegate. It is always fully closed unless it sees boost. The control will be quite different and I doubt you could modify the DME setup to run it correctly.

    In the case of Procede and Cp-E I believe, the boost control of the DME is not used, so they can use any method they wish to control boost. But they still have to keep the DME happy... it must think it is controlling boost correctly. To do this it has to know the boos the DME expects to see for the current engine conditions and DME duty output. I presume that CP-E use a mapped model to do this. In the Procede, we use the CAN bus to get the data straight from the DME and then feed it back in (with some alterations) via its inputs.

    So the wastegates are an issue, but how much of an issue really depends on the tuning mechanism. CP-E could do this with far less modification to standard systems than JB3 for instance.

    Adrian

  10. #35
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    i love it when vishnu gets involved in threads...

  11. #36
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    Custom tuning for one-off single turbo setups is definitely outside of the market for the JB3. Although probably doable with a few components added in to the harness or an external box. I would definitely pass a customer who is looking to do heavy custom/one off tuning over to CPE as their system is well suited to it. But we've been doing a little larger twin turbo tuning lately with the JB3. I say little because we haven't had to do much of anything. The 2.0 boost control model works very nicely with the larger turbos.

    With the N55 box we added some high current PWM outputs, a traditional power supply, CAN transceivers, and some additional stuff. So that board may become more viable for single turbo retrofits in the future.

  12. #37
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    I must admit that my opinion is that if you want to set up an N54 for mega-power, it is going to be difficult without going to standalone or some hybrid standalone setup. I think that if you choose a turbo that can make atleast 7psi by around 2000RPM, you could get that working well... I think a varient of GT30 or maybe GT35 could do this. I think the 700+hp turbos are beyond this. If you want to run big turbos, you are going to have to compromise somewhere, and take control of the engine and take the DME out of the equation. Standalone is not great with direct injection, so probably going to need to stick some port injectors in.. around 500+ cc. Taking control of the ignition is easy. Then take control of the throttle and cam timing. Of course the DME will be going crazy, so you will need to sort that out or the dash will be lit up like a christmas tree.

    I think with a GT30-35 setup you could probably get it working with stock DME still controlling everything but boost. You would need to optimise the setup to get significant boost by 2000RPM. Maybe the GT37 TS will achieve this??? Of course this is all conjecture on my part, as I have not tried this, but just based on experience from the many challenges we have faced in N54 tuning.

    Terry, that new hardware you are working on is sounding more and more like the Procede!! Click here to enlarge

    Adrian

  13. #38
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    I suppose we won't know until someone tries, but I don't see lower RPM fueling, advance, or cam timing being an issue that can't be overcome. Someone shooting for those power levels will have a lowered expectation on the low end performance anyway. But higher boost fueling is a serious issue and will require a piggyback injector system. Which introduces a variable in terms of coexisting with the very precise DI system. And of course the issue of supplying an ample volume of fuel to both those systems. Things are so much easier in the 400-500rw range where higher fuel pressure and lots of meth is sufficient.

    I've been playing around with some flash tuning as well just to broaden my horizons and understanding of the ECU's logic and I think a hybrid tuning solution could also be a good fit for larger turbos. Let the ECU run timing and fueling and then use a piggyback for boost control. While the piggybacks (in general) are highly evolved and precise in terms of boost control fueling and timing are relatively limited IMHO.

    As far as emulating the PROcede, the only component I ever really had a problem with was Shiv. Click here to enlarge

  14. #39
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    In theory, flash tuning could do all these things and more. The problem is that current flashtuning is not anywhere near that developed, and I think it unlikely it ever will be. I have seen some great things done with flash tunes in the past, but they were far more advanced than what N54 is. Current N54 tuning is limitted to remapping of existing maps. To do the big turbos, you need to rewrite the algorithms, and that means fully reverse engineering the OEM firmware and rewriting it which is a massive job for such a small market. I think we will see some big single turbo setups that will make the dyno numbers and pull some good ET/MPH. I am just not convinced they will be any good for normal driving, and that is not because of the more lag... that is just because the tuning for moderate load/ low RPM will be compromised. The best achievable option currently it to use a supplementary fuel system with a flash that is just flashed to remap target boost, and get rid of faults and tune ignition/light load fuel. Then let the supplementary fueler do the high load fuel control. I do have some ideas to try with the Procede to get around some of these things, but will not know if they will work until I try, and nothing in the pipeline yet.

    Adrian

  15. #40
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    Interesting information regarding the mounting of the turbo.

    I figured, since they're dug underneath, a long manifold would've been hard, but now I see it wasn't just the manifold, but the DME issues as well.

    Keep us updated!

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    Great thread. Bimmer Boost just made my bookmarks toolbar!

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    If you have a piggyback with CANbus and CPS offset, why would the ecu be unhappy if you are simply feeding the targets right back to the DME? As for fuelling and timing, you can all dial those in on a load based dyno and save the settings. With a piggyback like the cpe standback that is fully tuneable by the end user, I don't see this being much of an issue at all.

    The standback also controls their PRO fuel controller which has 30x30 tables to control the extra PI injectors, so once again, fueling will be cake, you can probably even base it off the stock wideband that are read through CANbus. Speaking of that has anyone with a procede and an aftermarket af gauge vertified if the stock wideband are accurate? I know that in my old platforum, everyone used the stock wideband for tuning since they were spot on to aftermarket widebands.

  18. #43
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    I love me some LOOSH.
    Last edited by www.cp-e.com; 05-06-2010 at 08:50 AM.
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    Progress has been made.

  20. #45
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    Awesome news. Congrats to unfor and I hope everything goes smoothly with your build.
    Click here to enlarge

  21. #46
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    I am going to limit a lot on our end of what is going on. We typically don't like to say much before projects are finished as putting the cart before the horse can add frustration to these projects. We are very excited and look forward to the progress just as much as everyone else.

    Adrian - thanks for the input. We both obviously know a lot about each others systems. Many things are very similar just done in different ways. It is definately going to be a fun project and we have gone over things pretty extensively to get a good game plan for doing this. I firmly believe that all three tuning companies (BMS, Vishnu, and cp-e) could do this project with the right approach and am glad to have this opportunity to work with Justin. Thankfully, as Loosh mentioned, our pro-fuel controller will make the integration of the secondary fuel rail near seamless in this project.

    I look forward to sharing results. I spoke with JE this morning again and things seem to be going great. This project isn't something done over night. I am out of town from the 12th - 23rd of this month for my wedding and honeymoon so our part of the build will occur when I get back. Thank god we have an AWD MustangDyno and top of the line fan systems that can generate 80+mph highway winds. I really need to get a picture / video of our setup. I know a few customers took some at our last dyno day i'll see if they will post em.
    Custom Performance Engineering
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  22. #47
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Morpheus Click here to enlarge
    Great thread. Bimmer Boost just made my bookmarks toolbar!
    Just now? Click here to enlarge

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  23. #48
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    Good luck with this build, sounds wild!

    Question to CP-E, is the upgraded HPFP something that you guys are still working on? Haven't heard anything on that for awhile. I saw from your site that you already have one for the Mazda 3(?). How similar is that to the N54 pump?

    thanks!

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    I see two possible outcomes:

    - The most insane single turboed 335i in the world
    - Failed project and tons of money out the door

    I hope for the first, because i'll be next if it works.

  25. #50
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    It is VERY different from the MazdaSPEED pumps. We are always working on this one - still waiting to see how the new pump from BMW works.
    Custom Performance Engineering
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