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Thread: Tuning a M70??

  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    Please, don't be rude.

    it's called S70/2. Best engineers at BMW tried to do their best and design that engine. what was the result? 103hp/liter.

    We are not talking about GM engines. we are not talking about BMW S85 engine also, we are talking about M70. OK?



    it does lead us to no where. are we talking about forced induction? NO. So no examples from FI cars can be said here. Who do you know the heads would add 200hp on a NA M70? really how? let's say it's true, with new heads the M70 can make 500hp. so is BMW retarded that much not to use it in newer models? why the hell they spent millions of dollars on R&D in M73 and N73 just to make extra 140 hp?

    Live in the real world mate, in the real world. 750 HP M70?
    I am deeply sorry to have offended you. So my apologies !

    103hp/liter for a engine, that is in a engine bay plated with gold to dissolve heat, this was all done for reliabilty reasons.

    150hp/liter in a M70 may not be reliable, it is purely race and VAC motorsport makes the heads that flow and are able to supply that power WITH the correct modifications, we are talking about rotating a V12 with a heavy rotating assembly past 8000rpm !

    My referrals to the GM 350 engine were merely to show you the comparison, a 350 Gen I/II is somewhere around 150-200hp but will make well more with the correct modifications, without any forced induction! So what is to stop us from doing such things with the M70? And where did i mention the S85?

    Where did i state that only the heads slapped on would give us 200hp? I did most certainly not, i think you either need to borrow a pair of glasses, buy ones or get new ones if you already have them. Read my post better, both the first line and the last one!

    BMW would never over-engineer things, sadly (rather the opposite, E39 M5 brakes for example)... You would never have heard of such a thing... And the only time i've ever heard of them using anything that was not their design, would be the time that they used the M62B46 from Alpina in the X5!

    You should also need to remember, for reliabilty reasons these engines are kept at a low hp/displacement level, but nobody says they can not be made to be more powerful.... at the cost of reliability of course !

    And to ruin your parade..... the N73 has Dual Overhead Cams, with a totally new design of heads... 4 valves per cylinder, thus their great addition in power and torque...

    I do live in the real world.... and 750hp NA M70/M73/S70 engines do exist aswell....

    VAC motorsport built a race M73 engine with 840hp NA !!!

  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by angelic0- Click here to enlarge
    I am deeply sorry to have offended you. So my apologies !

    103hp/liter for a engine, that is in a engine bay plated with gold to dissolve heat, this was all done for reliabilty reasons.

    150hp/liter in a M70 may not be reliable, it is purely race and VAC motorsport makes the heads that flow and are able to supply that power WITH the correct modifications, we are talking about rotating a V12 with a heavy rotating assembly past 8000rpm !

    My referrals to the GM 350 engine were merely to show you the comparison, a 350 Gen I/II is somewhere around 150-200hp but will make well more with the correct modifications, without any forced induction! So what is to stop us from doing such things with the M70? And where did i mention the S85?

    Where did i state that only the heads slapped on would give us 200hp? I did most certainly not, i think you either need to borrow a pair of glasses, buy ones or get new ones if you already have them. Read my post better, both the first line and the last one!

    BMW would never over-engineer things, sadly (rather the opposite, E39 M5 brakes for example)... You would never have heard of such a thing... And the only time i've ever heard of them using anything that was not their design, would be the time that they used the M62B46 from Alpina in the X5!

    You should also need to remember, for reliabilty reasons these engines are kept at a low hp/displacement level, but nobody says they can not be made to be more powerful.... at the cost of reliability of course !

    And to ruin your parade..... the N73 has Dual Overhead Cams, with a totally new design of heads... 4 valves per cylinder, thus their great addition in power and torque...

    I do live in the real world.... and 750hp NA M70/M73/S70 engines do exist aswell....

    VAC motorsport built a race M73 engine with 840hp NA !!!
    Just wanted to say good post and I agree with it completely. You can take NA motors to limits you were talking about just it is definitely easier on paper with this particular motor.

  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by angelic0- Click here to enlarge
    I am deeply sorry to have offended you. So my apologies !
    you didn't Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by angelic0- Click here to enlarge
    103hp/liter for a engine, that is in a engine bay plated with gold to dissolve heat, this was all done for reliabilty reasons.
    and that engine was designed for the ultimate road going car, so i can safely say that engine was the best. that engine also made it into 3 different RACE cars, so reliabilty isn't that much a factor as before. Two different LeMans car, and one FIA GT were the S70/2 powered cars and guess what, the engine made the same HP as road going McLaren.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by angelic0- Click here to enlarge
    we are talking about rotating a V12 with a heavy rotating assembly past 8000rpm !
    Dude, 8000rpm is great but not enough to make 150hp/liter. S70/2 can rev to 7500, so M70 with 2 valves less per cylinder is going to make 50 hp/liter more than S70/2 just because it rev 500 more?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by angelic0- Click here to enlarge
    So what is to stop us from doing such things with the M70?
    Nothing. I'll be really happy if you achieve your goal with M70 and i'm not talking Bull Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by angelic0- Click here to enlarge
    And where did i mention the S85?
    No where. i said that to prevent you talking about other BMW engines and get focused on M70 not others.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by angelic0- Click here to enlarge
    Where did i state that only the heads slapped on would give us 200hp? I did most certainly not, i think you either need to borrow a pair of glasses, buy ones or get new ones if you already have them. Read my post better, both the first line and the last one!
    Dude, you said a guy with X psi of boost made 1100hp. after installing stage III heads, with 10 psi less boost it made 1300hp. so what does it mean? it does mean with new heads it does make AT LEAST 200 hp ( let aside the less boost ).
    What did i say? i said we can't say on a NA car this has the same effect.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by angelic0-
    BMW would never over-engineer things
    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by angelic0- Click here to enlarge
    And the only time i've ever heard of them using anything that was not their design
    That's because they are the best.
    But still my question is not answered, Why instead of designing new engine, they didn't design new heads? I'm not saying they should have come to VAC, i mean for god's sake it's BMW we are talking about, not a garage in middle of a desert.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by angelic0-
    And to ruin your parade..... the N73 has Dual Overhead Cams, with a totally new design of heads
    Thank you. I know that, but what i don't know is what this has to do with the conversation? I asked why BMW spent too much money on N73 to make 440hp while a M70 with new heads and supporting mods ( which overall costs LESS than designing new engine ) can make more power?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by angelic0-
    VAC motorsport built a race M73 engine with 840hp NA !!!
    good for them. Dinan also built a race version of their 5.8 stroked V10 which in every aspect is miles better than M73 and rev much higher, the result was 720 hp. of course the magic of VAC should cause the 120hp difference.

  4. #29
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    i recall @PEI330Ci has some good info on this particular heads discussion.

  5. #30
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    i withdraw myself from this debate, you obviously know everything better.. although i already answered your question, i suggest a pair of glasses !

  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by angelic0- Click here to enlarge
    you obviously know everything better
    I really don't. I'm just stating my opinion, and that ends here.

  7. #32
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    I've always wanted a 8 series, doesn't even matter which one. Really huge fan of them, although maintenance would be expensive, along with the parts if something went wrong. Hopefully done day, the Koenig Special kit is insane.

    Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Forget that turbo nonsense. It's a complex/temperamental motor and there is barely any forced induction out there for it. It would cost you an arm and a leg anyway.

    What is your budget and power goal for this? If you just want a small bump, get a tune and exhaust.
    Its actually not complex or temperamental. It is literally two M20's fused at the crank. The reason people bash it as being temperamental is because there are two ECUs, two electronic throttles, etc. Putting the car on a more modern ECU platform would make it much more reliable and powerful, but the truth (and this is the part that hurts) is that without going pyscho, a single M20 isn't very high in output, and having two of them is not very attractive. Since it's not a flat plane V12 it doesn't have the cool sound to justify the number of spark plugs - its not rev happy - it's not high output. Its really just a "luxury" motor for the guys with expensive cufflinks to talk about their V12 while puffing expensive cigars. In reality it's not really worth modifying to be honest - I'd rather have an 840 with 4.4 or 4.9


  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    Its actually not complex or temperamental. It is literally two M20's fused at the crank. The reason people bash it as being temperamental is because there are two ECUs, two electronic throttles, etc. Putting the car on a more modern ECU platform would make it much more reliable and powerful, but the truth (and this is the part that hurts) is that without going pyscho, a single M20 isn't very high in output, and having two of them is not very attractive. Since it's not a flat plane V12 it doesn't have the cool sound to justify the number of spark plugs - its not rev happy - it's not high output. Its really just a "luxury" motor for the guys with expensive cufflinks to talk about their V12 while puffing expensive cigars. In reality it's not really worth modifying to be honest - I'd rather have an 840 with 4.4 or 4.9
    There is plenty that can be done in NA form if one simply wants to boost power. No one is going to get crazy and go to extremes and the cost and tuning are going to a pain in the ass.

  10. #35
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    You really won't get extra power out of an M70 without doing significant modifications. Exhaust usually doesn't yield much - it's usually cams and massive amounts of head work. Its a shame really because I want the BMW V12's to be awesome (from this generation) but they're... just, not. You're usually chasing 250 - 275 rwhp out of 5 liters and 12 cylinders.


  11. #36
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    You really won't get extra power out of an M70 without doing significant modifications. Exhaust usually doesn't yield much - it's usually cams and massive amounts of head work. Its a shame really because I want the BMW V12's to be awesome (from this generation) but they're... just, not. You're usually chasing 250 - 275 rwhp out of 5 liters and 12 cylinders.
    It simply depends how far one wants to go.

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It simply depends how far one wants to go.
    If you were a woman Sticky.... i guess i'd propose to you...

    Headwork and a Cam... up the revs.... and i beleive we're in buisness....

    Everything is possible, with the right set of mind... !!!

  13. #38
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by angelic0- Click here to enlarge
    If you were a woman Sticky.... i guess i'd propose to you...
    I get that a lot.... from strangers on the internet.

  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I get that a lot.... from strangers on the internet.
    Repped for truth.

    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I get that a lot.... from strangers on the internet.
    It's the in-person thing that is the struggle Click here to enlarge


  16. #41
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by angelic0- Click here to enlarge
    If you were a woman Sticky.... i guess i'd propose to you...

    Headwork and a Cam... up the revs.... and i beleive we're in buisness....

    Everything is possible, with the right set of mind... !!!
    and a couple dozen of these silly things:

    Click here to enlarge

    Maybe an extra dozen for when they snap in half


  17. #42
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    I'd prefer a set like these:

    http://store.vacmotorsports.com/vac---m20-billet-rocker-arms-set-of-12-p965.aspx

    Click here to enlarge

    J
    ust top prevent them from snapping Click here to enlarge

  18. #43
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    I lol @ VAC sometimes. $3600 in lifters lol.

    You could just go for something like these:

    Click here to enlarge


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    i know... their prices are crazy...

    but for a high revving M70 monster, i guess they're the only ones that could supply them..

    do you know of an another source ?

  20. #45
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    there are a few other rocker manufacturers that M20 guys use but honestly... and not bashing... I don't think it's worth it.


  21. #46
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    how are the others prices compared to VAC ?

  22. #47
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    Post up pictures of your 8 series, I really want to see them.
    Click here to enlarge

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