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  1. #1
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    Vishnu w/ Meth on S65

    Seems pretty cool. Any opinions?


    Taken from M3P
    Hi guys,
    This is my first post on the m3 section of this forum. M3post Vendor status is in progress.

    Just thought you guys would find this interesting. For the past few week, I've been working on a little pet project for our newly acquired e90 m3 project car. It's a 2007 production built 6MT. Living in CA, it runs on 91oct fuel (Shell V-Power). The only mods are/were a Vanguard rear exhaust section. Stock cats. Stock intake. Stock DME. Ambient temps were mid-70F.

    First thing I did was benchmark some real-world acceleration times using our vbox. Keeping things somewhat tame, I conducted 30-110mph runs starting in a 2nd gear roll on. Using the same section of level road, vbox times were consistently in the 12.0-12.2 second range. I installed a customized (for m3 application) Procede engine control computer which I ran in pass-thru mode for datalogging purposes. Here is one of the runs:

    Click here to enlarge

    Intake air temps were in the mid to high 30s which is reasonable given ambient conditions. With each successive gear, average ignition timing dropped. During a couple runs, I even heard a couple pings in the 5500-6000rpm range.

    Next, I turned on a customized version of our n54 PWM meth system. Unlike most other methanol systems, this one is metered by an Aquamist valve driven directly by the Procede. The Procede also monitors actual methanol flow by reading the raw frequency signal provided by the flow meter turbine with hall effects sensor. Still in the process of playing around with nozzle size and placement. But first attempt testing looks promising. But just enabling the Procede controlled methanol system, VBox showed 30-110 times of 11.6-11.8 which is a considerable improvement. Especially considering that we made no active changes to ignition advance setpoints or AFR target values. Here's a datalog:

    Click here to enlarge

    With no actual mapping changes, the DME picked up 3-6 degrees of timing in each gear. Especially noticeable immediately post shift where it pushed me in the chair nicely. Intake air temps readings plummeted to just 5 deg C (a ~30deg C reduction). I suspect there is some wet bulb effect given the location of the sensor and the nozzles. But in my experience, real IAT will still be in that ballpark. Still heaps below the IAT measured without meth. The car was noticeably faster due to the denser air charge (providing a nice VE bump) and the extra advance (providing a nice thermal efficiency bump).

    Did some preliminary testing earlier tonight by increasing timing advance targets and the results were in-line with expectations. 30-110mph times dropped again to 11.4-11.6 seconds. And that is with some pretty coarse tuning. Will be cleaning things up on the dyno later this week. As well as make some minor changes to nozzles location/size. Will also play around with fuel mapping. I'm pretty confident we will see some sizeable gains. Better than what one would see with race gas and a DME tune. I'll keep you guys posted. I'd love to see if it's possible to make a 100% heak-soak resistant 400whp with basic bolt-ons, Procede and meth. I'll keep you guys posted. More datalogs, dyno results and pictures to follow Click here to enlarge

    Cheers,
    Shiv
    Current:
    14 Viper TA
    Wsir - 1:28:9
    Buttonwillow C13 - 1:54:1

  2. #2
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    good stuff. if i wanted to make an ultimate N/A setup, i would follow this routine.

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    im sure with full exhaust and meth you could get some good results.
    Current:
    14 Viper TA
    Wsir - 1:28:9
    Buttonwillow C13 - 1:54:1

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    Dropped a second from 30-110 time with tune and meth? or just meth.. Either way thats pretty good.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  5. #5
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    It's interesting to see Vishnu trying to enter the M3 game.

    What do I think? Minimal gains on NA applications but considering the octane boost provided with meth there should be something to gain there. Guess we will see how it plays out.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It's interesting to see Vishnu trying to enter the M3 game.

    What do I think? Minimal gains on NA applications but considering the octane boost provided with meth there should be something to gain there. Guess we will see how it plays out.
    I do fin it pretty cool that they actually listed times, and how much times were reduced. I wish they ran 60-130 instead of 30-110 thou
    Current:
    14 Viper TA
    Wsir - 1:28:9
    Buttonwillow C13 - 1:54:1

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DD GT3 RD Click here to enlarge
    I do fin it pretty cool that they actually listed times, and how much times were reduced. I wish they ran 60-130 instead of 30-110 thou
    Did they post the Vbox files for analysis though?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Did they post the Vbox files for analysis though?
    touche!
    Current:
    14 Viper TA
    Wsir - 1:28:9
    Buttonwillow C13 - 1:54:1

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    I find Shiv's endeavors into the S65 N/A realm very intriguing. Since I am die hard N/A guy...(Sorry BimmerBoost Click here to enlarge) I have been contemplating running meth on both my E46 and E90 for quite some time now. I just never really saw anyone do it before with hard data. If I ever decide to run some Meth on my cars to lower IATs, I would definitely prefer to use solely for that reason and not have a tune designed for meth usage.

    I'm not sure how I feel about this type of tuning and having a "piggy back" type of system though. For whatever reason, I prefer much more traditional DME flash type of tune.

    Either way, I am very interested and excited to see his results! I'm sure he'll get some good gains.
    2002 E46 M3 6MT | Jet Black . Black Nappa | My GermanBoost Build Thread
    2009 E90 M3 DCT | Melbourne Red . Speed Cloth

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by flipm3 Click here to enlarge
    Since I am die hard N/A guy...(Sorry BimmerBoost )
    We are about BMW Performance, not just forced induction. I love NA too, I just don't like losing races.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by flipm3 Click here to enlarge
    I have been contemplating running meth on both my E46 and E90 for quite some time now. I just never really saw anyone do it before with hard data. If I ever decide to run some Meth on my cars to lower IATs, I would definitely prefer to use solely for that reason and not have a tune designed for meth usage.
    I saw RPI try on an E60 M5 and they picked up basically nothing.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by flipm3 Click here to enlarge
    I'm not sure how I feel about this type of tuning and having a "piggy back" type of system though. For whatever reason, I prefer much more traditional DME flash type of tune.
    I'm not stoked about the piggy back aspect either. We'll have to see this develop.

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    This piggyback is what is controlling the entire methanol delivery system. From pump activation to solenoid control to flow monitoring. It is also responsible for making the tune more/less aggressive depending on measured methanol flow. I don't see what there is not to be "pumped" about frankly. But to each his own.

  12. #12
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    This piggyback is what is controlling the entire methanol delivery system. From pump activation to solenoid control to flow monitoring. It is also responsible for making the tune more/less aggressive depending on measured methanol flow. I don't see what there is not to be "pumped" about frankly. But to each his own.
    I think it was along the lines of people preferring the DME to handle things with the E92 M3. So the piggy only does the meth? The tune you are referring to is in the piggy or do you flash the ECU?

    Basically, how is the tune made more or less aggressive?

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    For me personally, I just prefer to have the DME control the actual tune as Sticky mentioned. I really do believe you offer a great product, especially with the way the Procede controls meth delivery!

    I am very excited to see your results with your Procede controlling meth compared with a DME that's already tuned by someone else. Keep it up Shiv!
    2002 E46 M3 6MT | Jet Black . Black Nappa | My GermanBoost Build Thread
    2009 E90 M3 DCT | Melbourne Red . Speed Cloth

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    i think the only reason hes coming into the M3 scene now is because of the New turbo M3 coming in the future. Nice way to get a foot in the door to say he can tune M3s.
    F10 M5 : ??????
    E90 M3: 11.2 126.7 with a 1.8 60ft Street Tires, Stock Interior,DSC on

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    Dyno results posted up on the other forum. If Sticky permits it, they can be posted up here as well.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    Dyno results posted up on the other forum. If Sticky permits it, they can be posted up here as well.
    One of these days Shiv you will be able to post results on your own and won't have to ask for my permission. If a member puts it up, cool.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by akh23456 Click here to enlarge
    i think the only reason hes coming into the M3 scene now is because of the New turbo M3 coming in the future. Nice way to get a foot in the door to say he can tune M3s.
    I really don't think this M3 will have anything in common with the upcoming one.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I really don't think this M3 will have anything in common with the upcoming one.
    i agree but doesn't shiv only tune turbos... first time seeing him tune a n/a car. I can't wait to see results because its cool to have a meth option stock but i wouldn't want to spend money on procede.
    F10 M5 : ??????
    E90 M3: 11.2 126.7 with a 1.8 60ft Street Tires, Stock Interior,DSC on

  19. #19
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by akh23456 Click here to enlarge
    i agree but doesn't shiv only tune turbos... first time seeing him tune a n/a car. I can't wait to see results because its cool to have a meth option stock but i wouldn't want to spend money on procede.
    No, not only turbos. Just mostly turbo BMW's as of late.

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    straight from M3P

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Shiv
    Hi guys,
    Quite a bit of tuning data here so just bear with me. I'll try to provide the info as clearly as possible. But if anyone has any questions, feel free to ask and I'll do my best to answer.

    As of right now, our Procede can control PWM Methanol injection, change AFR target and change ignition timing set points. All tunable "on-the-fly" mapswitching/tuning (ie, not requiring DME flashing/resetting or ignition cycling.) This gave us the ability to make incremental changes to the tune and see how the engine reacted on the dyno. Lot of dyno runs over the last two days (74 runs in all). Both with an essentially stock car (just Vanguard muffler section) and then again (the next day) with primary and secondary cat-deletes ($100 muffler shop special).

    Test car is an early production 2008 E92 6MT with 60k miles on the clock. The only mod prior to testing is a Vanguard muffler section and big wheels (19" Linea Corsa rims with 295mm wide tires). All runs tested in 4th gear on a 3rd party Dynojet (DNR Racing in Hayward CA) in Power/M mode. Numbers are actual/uncorrected values (CR=1.00). Ambient temps for both dyno sessions were 75-86 deg F) with 34-45% Humidity. Fuel used was 91oct Unocal/76 which is the best quality fuel we can find at the pump here in CA.

    Just an upgraded Vanguard muffler section. Still running stock X-pipe, cats, midpipe, etc,.:
    Click here to enlarge

    3rd Party Dynojet (DNR Performance in Hayward CA):
    Click here to enlarge

    DAY ONE
    Yesterday, our goal was to establish a solid and repeatable baseline (we threw out the lowest outlines). And then to enable the Procede tune and PWM Meth system. At this time, all the Procede did was meter methanol spray and adjust ignition advance as a function of measured methanol flow. No changes were made to AFR targeting. In the end, we came up with these results:

    Click here to enlarge

    Analysis
    Properly metering methanol as a function of Throttle angle and Airflow was key to keeping the DME happy and code free. If methanol is injected like an on/off switch, the DME will trigger various fuel control codes. Caused by having to react to big AFR swings at meth spray onset. So by injecting progressively (via Aquamist PWM valve), the DME sees no such plausibility issues. The extra meth naturally provides a big cooling advantage, dropping measured inlet air temps (IATs) by approx 20 deg C (35 deg F)! Just spraying meth alone picked up approx 10whp at high RPM (not shown). But that is only part of the story. Methanol also increases octane much like running race fuel. This allowed us to run 4-6 degrees more ignition advance, getting us right to the point of maximum thermal efficiency or Min Advance for Best Torque (MBT for short). This is where every engine "wants" to run. However, real world constraints (temp and octane) usually prevent this. This is why a stock "420bhp" m3 doesn't really make 420whp on the road. It also explains why stock baseline dynos, from car-to-car/condition-to-condition/octane-to-octane can vary from 320whp to 350whp. Methanol allows us to "tune" the environment which, in turn, allows us to tune the engine the way it wants to be tuned for maximum. And do it more safely than just trying to tune conventionally (ie, making the tune more aggressive without running meth or race gas, etc,.). So, at the end of the first day, running methanol and the extra ignition advance gave us not only big power gains, but also made the power perfectly consistent and 100% immune to heat soak. Which means that power gains in worse conditions will be every greater. But even in these temperate conditions, we saw gains of:

    ~30WHP at 8000RPM
    ~27LB-FT at 3000RPM


    Note
    When running the stock tune on pump gas, we found a natural variance of +/- 5whp. But, at times it got much worse. This seems to happen when cylinder head and iat temps get extra high. It is also one of the runs we "threw out" as an outliner as it would lead to artificially inflated tuning gains. But it does clearly show how easy it is to get a low baseline if you dyno selectively:
    Click here to enlarge

    DAY TWO
    Today, we had two updates to the car and tune. First, we eliminated both primary and secondary cats. Stock X-pipe and resonators were retained. We used 2.5" crush bent aluminized steel piping that we fabricated at a local muffler shop. Nothing fancy. Cost us less than $100. I suspect using proper mandrel bends may be worth an extra hp or two.

    We also got control of AFR targeting, giving the Procede to change factory AFR setpoints by +/- 3 points. This is a very wide adjustment range. AFR target changes are mapped via 3D table. RPM vs. Airflow (in kg/hour):
    Click here to enlarge

    The first thing we did was quantify the gains we got from deleting both sets of cats while running the stock tune. Compared to yesterday's "no tune" baseline, todays "no-tune" baseline (with cat deletes) were good:

    Click here to enlarge

    The next thing we did was to compare the stock tune (with the cat deletes) to various stages to Procede tuning. Without running methanol. It turns out that the reduction of exhaust back-pressure allowed us to be considerably more aggressive with the mapping.

    First we simply enleaned AFR target (under heavy load) from 6500rpm and up. Basically increasing AFR from the mid 12:1s to high 12:1s. This is represented in the Red run below (Run 68) This got us gains of 6-13WHP between 6700 and 8000rpm. Next, we added 2 degrees of advance across the board (under load). This gave an additional 6-11WHP from 5700rpm to 8400. This is the Light Blue run below (Run 70). So through some admittedly pretty coarse tuning (and NO METH), we picked up a peak power gain of:

    23WHP at 7500RPM

    Stock tuning vs. Leaner up top vs. Leaner up top AND more ignition advance:
    Click here to enlarge

    Finally, we enabled PWM methanol and spun up the dyno. Immediately, run to run variance dropped to within 1-2hp. Power curve smoothened out (less jagged). IATs dropped. The extra octane also allowed us to add a few degrees more ignition advance across the board. And after a few tuning runs, we saw this:

    Procede tune vs. Procede Tune+Procede PWM Meth
    Click here to enlarge

    Gains of 20-25WHP from 5500 to Redline. We actually saw a 45WHP gain at a high 8300rpm but that's not that useful so we can ignore that for the sake of reasonableness Click here to enlarge

    SUMMARY
    It's been a fun couple weeks playing with this car. Compared to the n55/n54 engines that we've been tuning since 2007, the s65 does present it's share of challenges. Namely the granularity needed to squeeze out gains in an NA application. It definitely needs more fine tuning since we are dealing with relatively small incremental gains each step of the way. But the initial results are promising and they should only get better with time.

    But as it stands now, by adding the following:

    Vishnu Procede and PWM Meth kit ($TBA)
    Muffler Shop Primary Secondary Cat Deletes ($100)

    We saw the following REALISTIC gains:

    Stock vs Vishnu Tuned (Procede+PWM Meth+Cat Deletes)
    Click here to enlarge

    *Gains of 20-45WHP over the ENTIRE useable power band.
    *53LB-FT peak gains at 2900RPM
    *Absolute resistance to heat-soak
    *Lower fuel consumption (leaner AFR targets and additional advance)
    *Better part throttle response (due to lower IATs and extra advance)
    *And niftly in-dash gauges, shift lights, code reading/clearing functions, misc DME activations, mapswitching, user tune-ability (if inclined.. but not necessary)

    And if you are used to naughty tuner tricks (ie, comparing final tuned results to a HEATSOAKED baseline) you get the following results:

    LOW stock baseline vs. Vishnu tuned
    Click here to enlarge

    This will be the last time we ever show an unreasonably low baseline dyno result. This was done for entertainment purposes only Click here to enlarge

    Please let me know if you guys have any questions.

    Cheers,
    Shiv

    PS. BIG THANKS to Zoeb at Wheeldude.com for letting us use his car for testing Click here to enlarge

  21. #21
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    straight from M3P
    This is actually very impressive. Almost 390 whp? Wow.

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    Yes.

    I don't believe i'm saying this, but well done Shiv, well done.

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    Doesn't the m3 community only allow sae dyno's?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    Doesn't the m3 community only allow sae dyno's?
    Not only allow, but definitely prefer. Whatever, he baselines are all there so you can see the delta. Would be great to see SAE as well as uncorrected will inflate the peak. Good catch as I didn't even pay attention to the correction factor.

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    Thanks guys. This time we did a procede/pwm meth kit on a G-Power supercharger-equipped car. Picked up ~80whp with no increase in boost/change in pulley.

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