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    Head of M engineering Albert Biermann talks S63tu

    Thought this was pretty interesting, listen to what he says about the motor:


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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Cool concept with the cross-feeding and pre-loading of turbos. High comp too. Seems to break alotta rules. Encouraging!
    ​"For the most part, it was pretty quiet all night long in gold and silver, but I'm sure the bullion banks are still lurking out there somewhere." -Ed Steer

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by susan28 Click here to enlarge
    Cool concept with the cross-feeding and pre-loading of turbos. High comp too. Seems to break alotta rules. Encouraging!
    This is the type of stuff we should expect from M. Innovation and pushing the envelope not just repackaging the same motor into every M car.

    I like that they made so many changes for the X5/X6 M S63 motor. This is something M enthusiasts and BMW themselves can be proud of.

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    $#@!ing badass video! Lots of good technical tidbits including the fact that in a year from now the 550i will get the valvetronic as well. Boost pressure at 1.6 bar holy $#@! that engine is definitely making more than 5hp over the XM's.

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    It all depends on where it makes that 1.6 bar - with the size of the turbos they may only ask 1.6 bar of them down load to supplement low/mid torque and let the motor rev out to produce horsepower at lower pressure up high.


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    No it doesn't really depend, of course the boost tapers off in the upper revs(as does the XM's) but 1.6Bar on a 10:1CR stock engine is impressive regardless of where in the powerband it is.

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    "Of course the boost tapers off" - why of course? It doesn't have to. That's a function of the solenoid mapping. Additionally 16 psi is not as impressive on a 10.0:1 motor given the fact that it's direct injected. The N54 motor is 10.2:1 - you have to keep in mind direct injection allows a lot more static compression + turbo given that the fuel is being introduced inside the chamber, timed.


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    i agree, why does it have to taper off? boost is just a byproduct of the amount of timing run, as long as you can advance the timing up top the level of boost shouldn't taper down. when boost does taper up top, like on a stock turbo n54, its because the timing was retarded.
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    I like it a lot. But it sounds like he has heard the cries of the community and is trying to ease us by saying "its a high revver" as if to rebuttal all our complaints.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Lots of good technical tidbits including the fact that in a year from now the 550i will get the valvetronic as well.
    I thought that was super interesting as well and the main thing I took away. I would think that means the trucks will get valvetronic also?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    "Of course the boost tapers off" - why of course? It doesn't have to. That's a function of the solenoid mapping. Additionally 16 psi is not as impressive on a 10.0:1 motor given the fact that it's direct injected. The N54 motor is 10.2:1 - you have to keep in mind direct injection allows a lot more static compression + turbo given that the fuel is being introduced inside the chamber, timed.
    The X5 and X6 M do 17.4 psi at lower compression and the M5 does 22 psi at 10.0:1. Not impressive?

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    ^ you know him well.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by oddjob2021 Click here to enlarge
    i agree, why does it have to taper off? boost is just a byproduct of the amount of timing run, as long as you can advance the timing up top the level of boost shouldn't taper down. when boost does taper up top, like on a stock turbo n54, its because the timing was retarded.
    Well the taper off is kind of typical on OE turbo setups - very common in vw/porsche/audi scene - fixable with a remap of the solenoid DC. Actually, retarding timing makes it want to make more boost because the ignition event happens later which means more heat is dumping in front of the turbine wanting to spool faster.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The X5 and X6 M do 17.4 psi at lower compression and the M5 does 22 psi at 10.0:1. Not impressive?
    Its a different technology (direct injection). Direct injected motors are able to run higher static CR because the fuel is introduced in the chamber in a specific location - MUCH less knock prone. You can't really compare it to ordinary port injection motors. Much the same, a 6.7L cummins motor is 17.3:1 running more boost than any of these motors. Its not the same technology.

    Don't be such an antagonist - I am not saying its "not impressive" as a whole, but static compression and boost pressure do not necessarily mean anything. They tell you the peak boost - they don't tell you its held through torque peak or redline, do they? Maybe they do? We run 16 - 18 psi on stock M50 motors... hopefully by now we all understand that "psi" is just a measurement of restriction of flow. K03 turbos on VWs run 22 PSI on port injected motors... granted they only make 240 whp, but thats becauese the turbos are small. Its all a function of airflow, not psi. But still yet, the DI motors are almost knock-proof given they can introduce the fuel into the chamber AFTER the intake valves have closed. You have to understand the technology before you can evaluate it.


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    Matt at TRM recently schooled me on this a bit, saying that what they actually go for is Flow, and actually try to *minimise* boost as they see it as a symptom of restricted flow. They get more power out of their SC's by turning them faster but not boost per se, if i understood him correctly.
    ​"For the most part, it was pretty quiet all night long in gold and silver, but I'm sure the bullion banks are still lurking out there somewhere." -Ed Steer

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by susan28 Click here to enlarge
    Matt at TRM recently schooled me on this a bit, saying that what they actually go for is Flow, and actually try to *minimise* boost as they see it as a symptom of restricted flow. They get more power out of their SC's by turning them faster but not boost per se, if i understood him correctly.
    Right - so what happens is, if you took something like a S52 S/C car, or any S/C car. Lets say E9x M3 s/c to make sticky happy. And you make 8 psi on the s/c. Thats great and all, but if thats just the engines resistance to flow. If you plop headers, some head work, intake work, exhaust work, etc., you might, with the same pulley, only make 4 psi. You didn't "lose boost" you "gained flow". Matt is good people I talk to him and McCoy a bunch. Met with Matt when he was doing work up here in Philadelphia.


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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    what they are saying is that generally speaking, for a motor of this displacement, compression, redline that 22 psi is impressive. Yes it isnt impressive on a 6.7L cummins, but this isnt a cummins, it's the new M5 motor. So, I think it is impressive but I am still concerned that the turbos are being nearly maxed out in stock form which leaves little room for tuners to up the boost.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    Right - so what happens is, if you took something like a S52 S/C car, or any S/C car. Lets say E9x M3 s/c to make sticky happy. And you make 8 psi on the s/c. Thats great and all, but if thats just the engines resistance to flow. If you plop headers, some head work, intake work, exhaust work, etc., you might, with the same pulley, only make 4 psi. You didn't "lose boost" you "gained flow". Matt is good people I talk to him and McCoy a bunch. Met with Matt when he was doing work up here in Philadelphia.
    thats pretty cool, you learn something new everyday huh?
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    I say of course because that is typically the way car manufacturers tune boosted engines and I'd bet this will be NO different hence the of course. I understand exactly how DI works but that is what makes this so impressive IMO. I wouldn't dismiss an engine that combines the high compression and high boost used here with the relatively high revving and fuel efficiency of this engine DI or not. You mention the N54 but I'm sure this engine is outflowing a FBO top N54 like LM's with probably better fuel efficiency and it's coming like that directly from the manufacturer which is alot more reliable and probably has alot more wiggle room when the tuners get their hands on it. DI isn't that new and isn't exclusive to BMW show us a similar stock motor. Hell half the people are $#@!ing that DI is a restriction and are wishing for a way to ditch it instead of looking for a way to take advantage of it's benefits. This engine is a slap in the face to those people and show a little of what a tuned well designed DI engine can do. Impressive IMO. Oh and 1.6bar isn't 16psi.

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    Oh and I love TRM they are a few minutes away from my house and will be helping me get some work done when my N63 finishes it's world tour.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    You mention the N54 but I'm sure this engine is outflowing a FBO top N54 like LM's with probably better fuel efficiency and it's coming like that directly from the manufacturer which is alot more reliable and probably has alot more wiggle room when the tuners get their hands on it.
    no doubt this engine outflows and out-performs an fbo n54 from factory.. turbo upgrade or not... the heads, the manifolds, injectors, coils, internals, everything is better, its supposed to be M for a reason. there is no reason to compare it, engine to engine, with an n54 except for the fact that the n54 is made by the same company and it has been very popular despite its short comings. only reason i mentioned an n54 was to compare it apples to apples with two similar engines (if you include all engines).
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    I say of course because that is typically the way car manufacturers tune boosted engines and I'd bet this will be NO different hence the of course. I understand exactly how DI works but that is what makes this so impressive IMO. I wouldn't dismiss an engine that combines the high compression and high boost used here with the relatively high revving and fuel efficiency of this engine DI or not. You mention the N54 but I'm sure this engine is outflowing a FBO top N54 like LM's with probably better fuel efficiency and it's coming like that directly from the manufacturer which is alot more reliable and probably has alot more wiggle room when the tuners get their hands on it. DI isn't that new and isn't exclusive to BMW show us a similar stock motor. Hell half the people are $#@!ing that DI is a restriction and are wishing for a way to ditch it instead of looking for a way to take advantage of it's benefits. This engine is a slap in the face to those people and show a little of what a tuned well designed DI engine can do. Impressive IMO. Oh and 1.6bar isn't 16psi.
    Sorry, 16 psi was a typo - was on my phone or ipad earlier

    That said, they are listed peak psi. Given its electronically controlled, the boost might only hit 1.6 bar under god mode and up to a certain RPM at which they may trickle it back... or maybe they trickly it up to 1.6 bar by redline, who knows. Only time will tell. Me personally, I like 2 bar from a big huge gigantor turbz Click here to enlarge


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    Its a different technology (direct injection). Direct injected motors are able to run higher static CR because the fuel is introduced in the chamber in a specific location - MUCH less knock prone. You can't really compare it to ordinary port injection motors. Much the same, a 6.7L cummins motor is 17.3:1 running more boost than any of these motors. Its not the same technology.
    Yes, direct injection will let you run higher compression also due to the cooling effect of direct injection which helps increase detonation resistance. Thanks for trying to tell me basics about direct injection though and assuming I have no idea what it is.

    You can't make a direct comparison maybe but 22 psi with 10.0:1 compression on 91 octane is pretty darn impressive no matter what. Know any other production motor running more boost on the same or higher compression?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    Don't be such an antagonist - I am not saying its "not impressive" as a whole, but static compression and boost pressure do not necessarily mean anything. They tell you the peak boost - they don't tell you its held through torque peak or redline, do they? Maybe they do? We run 16 - 18 psi on stock M50 motors... hopefully by now we all understand that "psi" is just a measurement of restriction of flow. K03 turbos on VWs run 22 PSI on port injected motors... granted they only make 240 whp, but thats becauese the turbos are small. Its all a function of airflow, not psi. But still yet, the DI motors are almost knock-proof given they can introduce the fuel into the chamber AFTER the intake valves have closed. You have to understand the technology before you can evaluate it.
    We don't have graphs or boost logs so can only go by peak boost. You telling me not to be an antagonist is not only amusing but antagonizing in of itself. Unlike yourself, I was simply making a point with no jabs thrown in so no need to get worked up.

    Yes, yes, psi is a measure of restriction but 22 psi on 10.0:1 on a production car, not aftermarket turbo, is not bad. I had to e-mail BMW to get confirmation on the compression because I just couldn't believe they raised it along with the boost.

    Even though DI will have greater resistance to detonation based on the precedent of the S63 the S63tu is surprising. Would you have guessed based on the X6/X5 M the M5 would gain boost pressure and compression?

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