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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Abid@ASR Click here to enlarge
    So let me get this straight, you spent all this time digging up as much information as you possibly could to try to prove me wrong? Apparently you have a crap load of free time on your hands or have nothing better to do. In either case my hats off to you little man for a job well done!

    Just so everyone knows who this little guy really is, I'm going to tell a breif story about him. I received an email from a buddy of his on E90post threatening to blackmail me and start a thread with false information about our company and RD Sport because Andrew from ardesign got lyched by the E90post community for posting idotic statements in regards to our turbo upgrades. I then sent a copy of this email to E90post admins and RD sport, and at that point they then decided to ban him for life. You have to be the biggest moron to think you can write an email like that and not get caught. Now he goes again and rants about things he knows nothing about first hand. Keep digging for information that you'll never find Adrew because you're not bright enough to figure it out on your own. This is why you've been working on a turbo upgrade for the N54 for the past few years that is still not finished. Inexperienced and uneducated Kids like yourself are a dime a dozen in this industry. Stick to what you know best, selling downpipes and O2 bungs on the internet.

    I think everyone here knows when they're dealing with a punk kid hiding behind a computer screen! Your post reputation and behavior I just explained speaks for itself! Good Luck trolling this site with false information and conjecture, when you have nothing positive to offer.
    You look even pettier by completely disregarding his technical claims and choosing to attack him personally. If you want to shut him and all the nay-sayers up, disprove them with FACTS and documentation. Vendors that talk big game and have no data to back it up are what is truly "dime a dozen" in this industry. All I understand from your response is that you have admitted you are using old, sub-par technology. I am neither a customer of AR Design nor ASR, but reputation-wise, I'd buy from AR in a heartbeat.

  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ar design Click here to enlarge
    The personal attacks were made by Abid, not me. I posted data. Please check my post again.
    You then went on to attack him and are disregarding the board rules.

    Enough.

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  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by tek818 Click here to enlarge
    You look even pettier by completely disregarding his technical claims and choosing to attack him personally. If you want to shut him and all the nay-sayers up, disprove them with FACTS and documentation. Vendors that talk big game and have no data to back it up are what is truly "dime a dozen" in this industry. All I understand from your response is that you have admitted you are using old, sub-par technology. I am neither a customer of AR Design nor ASR, but reputation-wise, I'd buy from AR in a heartbeat.
    How is he using old or subpar technology? You don't have to use the water lines and what may work for one setup may not work for another.

    AR does not have any turbo upgrades and has taken this thread far off course. Technical discussion on the topic at hand will be allowed.

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  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    How is he using old or subpar technology? You don't have to use the water lines and what may work for one setup may not work for another.

    AR does not have any turbo upgrades and has taken this thread far off course. Technical discussion on the topic at hand will be allowed.
    I do not feel ASR's response in this thread is warranted although I also do not think that another Vendors response in thread is created is warranted neither. It would be more suitable to create a new thread and discuss the pro's and con's of water cooling on a turbo.
    I do not think that ASR would use a subpar cooling and lubrication system and neither would Garret for matter. In my books I am of the opinion that water cooling is old school and it has always been week point of Mitsubishi in my books. There is so much more that can go wrong having a additional cooling system for the turbo. End of the day the manufacturer knows under what engineering guidelines the turbo was developed and if it does not have water cooling it was designed not to have it and should work equally well as another turbo with water cooling.
    AR addressed a valid question to ASR which in turn also addressed Turbo Dynamics thread (who by the way spammed the forum with 3 advertorials in various posts) in the wrong way, although in the case of ASR who is a paying vendor has a right to voice his opinion to Turbo Dynamics thread.

    Andrew from AR Design should create a new thread so we can discuss the pro's and con's of each available turbo upgrade where we can really discuss who has the best solution and always taking into account factual information and not opinionated.

    As for ASR's personal attack on AR Design I have had the personal pleasure to have dealt with both companies when things go wrong. AR design really came to the party considering I am on the other side of the Atlantic and ASR has yet to prove themselves.

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by George Smooth Click here to enlarge
    I do not feel ASR's response in this thread is warranted although I also do not think that another Vendors response in thread is created is warranted neither. It would be more suitable to create a new thread and discuss the pro's and con's of water cooling on a turbo.
    I do not think that ASR would use a subpar cooling and lubrication system and neither would Garret for matter. In my books I am of the opinion that water cooling is old school and it has always been week point of Mitsubishi in my books. There is so much more that can go wrong having a additional cooling system for the turbo. End of the day the manufacturer knows under what engineering guidelines the turbo was developed and if it does not have water cooling it was designed not to have it and should work equally well as another turbo with water cooling.
    AR addressed a valid question to ASR which in turn also addressed Turbo Dynamics thread (who by the way spammed the forum with 3 advertorials in various posts) in the wrong way, although in the case of ASR who is a paying vendor has a right to voice his opinion to Turbo Dynamics thread.

    Andrew from AR Design should create a new thread so we can discuss the pro's and con's of each available turbo upgrade where we can really discuss who has the best solution and always taking into account factual information and not opinionated.

    As for ASR's personal attack on AR Design I have had the personal pleasure to have dealt with both companies when things go wrong. AR design really came to the party considering I am on the other side of the Atlantic and ASR has yet to prove themselves.
    I believe AR is banned now, so he would not be able to continue discussion. Does anyone at ASR have proof of this new technology? I haven't seen anything on the Honeywell or Garrett websites, and I've called Boost Logic, AMS and Buschur racing, non of them have modern turbo kits that don't utilize water cooling.

  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    I believe AR is banned now, so he would not be able to continue discussion. Does anyone at ASR have proof of this new technology? I haven't seen anything on the Honeywell or Garrett websites, and I've called Boost Logic, AMS and Buschur racing, non of them have modern turbo kits that don't utilize water cooling.
    Not banned.

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  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Not banned.
    Good, I'm glad discussion between ASR and AR Design can continue. Try to keep things civil guys!

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    Good, I'm glad discussion between ASR and AR Design can continue. Try to keep things civil guys!
    AR Design will not be commenting in this thread any further and if AR Design continues to violate the rules they will be banned and all references removed.

    BB will not tolerate other vendors coming on here and posting under their company name only to bash the vendors that give us their support. AR Design thus far has only demonstrated a proclivity for disrespect for our vendor rules, our vendors, and our users.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
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  9. #34
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    Oil cooled turbos exist, but I would assume most of them are meant for diesel engined cars/trucks, and thus temperature wise might be challenged in the hot N54 driving fast lap times on the Ring. What are the temp specs for the ASR turbos?

    The non-water cooled solution might be good for most users though, especially with an upgraded oil cooler. Still, some more detailed info in this regard would be nice to have. What data does Garrett provide of ASR turbos or the technology?

  10. #35
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Abid@ASR Click here to enlarge
    The information that was written in regards to "not running water lines is a disaster waiting to happen", is soley directed towards the ASR upgrades since we are the only ones currently offering an upgrade this way. Let's get something straight before this goes any further, this guy is not an engineer and knows nothing about the characteristics as to why water lines are used on certain applications and not used on others.

    Our CHRA's were designed from the best Turbo Engineers in todays performance turbo market GARRETT. Our CHRA was specifically designed to reduce bearing heat VIA bearing housing design that implaments heat disipation channels, rather than water. This is a newer design for GT CHRA's from Garrett utilizing the latest technology they have to offer. I love how these guys that know nothing about engineering, physics, or metallurgy make assumption from knowledge they aquire from internet boards and magazines.

    I'm not here to bash anyone's product, but I won't sit by and watch a competitor try to bash our product with uneducated and false information in an attempt to sell theirs.


    1) The comment that 'water lines is a disaster waiting to happen' is not solely directed at ASR. I believe that RD are also using Garrett cores without water cooling. Of course, if you and RD use the same turbos, I can see why you are assuming that the comment is directed 'solely' at you

    2) You love how "these guys that know nothing about engineering, physics, or metallurgy make assumption from knowledge they acquire from internet boards and magazines..." What, if anything, do you actually know about me? Is it your assumption that my knowledge comes from Internet boards and magazines? I would like to know how you have come to that conclusion. Unless of course you are generalising and giving 'uneducated and false information' about me

    3) The guys who discussed the benefits, or disadvantages, of retaining water cooling, are the same guys "that know nothing about engineering, physics, or metallurgy make assumption from knowledge they acquire from internet boards and magazines." They are the same guys that started work on turbo development in 1991. They are the same guys who have one of the most secure reputations on turbo design within Europe. They are also one of Garrett's largest clients in the UK.

    4) You're not here to bash anyone's product. So why are you attempting to bash someone's reputation, without knowing anything about them? I personally find that offensive, childish and representative of someone immature and lacking in confidence in themselves or their own products

    5) At the end of the day, the fact is that there are options out on the market for customers to choose for themselves. An ASR solution to turbo upgrades will work for some people, Rob Beck upgrade will work for others, a Turbo Dynamics solution will be fine for another subset of customer base. It makes me laugh how fearful some companies are of competition - if their products are good, they will succeed in a competitive market place. Competition makes the best product stand out, surely?

    6) I have no beef or bone of contention with ASR. I personally am not a reseller or manufacturer, so I don't really care whether you feel you're getting bashed or not. I make no commercial gain out of documenting what is going on with my car. If you are not aware, the post that member "Turbo Dynamics UK" made was actually a direct copy of my own post on another forum. I gave them no consent to use my comments and opinions as public support of their own product.

    7) I have one quick question, which is based on actual facts - Garrett's current medium-frame turbochargers (GT25, GT28, GT30 & GT35, of which there are a total of 32 variants according to Garrett's latest list) all use oil and water cooled bearings. Only the GT32 variant, of which there is one, is oil-cooled only. Why is that?

    8) I have taken this as a direct copy from the Garrett website -

    "...

    Oil & Water Plumbing

    The intake and exhaust plumbing often receives the focus leaving the oil and water plumbing neglected.

    Garrett ball bearing turbochargers require less oil than journal bearing turbos. Therefore an oil inlet restrictor is recommended if you have oil pressure over about 60 psig. The oil outlet should be plumbed to the oil pan above the oil level (for wet sump systems). Since the oil drain is gravity fed, it is important that the oil outlet points downward, and that the drain tube does not become horizontal or go “uphill” at any point.


    Following a hot shutdown of a turbocharger, heat soak begins. This means that the heat in the head, exhaust manifold, and turbine housing finds it way to the turbo’s center housing, raising its temperature. These extreme temperatures in the center housing can result in oil coking.


    To minimize the effects of heat soak-back, water-cooled center housings were introduced. These use coolant from the engine to act as a heat sink after engine shutdown, preventing the oil from coking. The water lines utilize a thermal siphon effect to reduce the peak heat soak-back temperature after engine shut down . The layout of the pipes should minimize peaks and troughs with the (cool) water inlet on the low side. To help this along, it is advantageous to tilt the turbocharger about 25 about the axis of shaft rotation.


    Many Garrett turbos are water-cooled for enhanced durability.


    ..."



    Please note the last line - "Many Garrett turbos are water-cooled for enhanced durability"


    Given that I "know nothing about engineering, physics, or metallurgy" and "make assumption from knowledge [I]... acquire from internet boards and magazines..." I cannot possibly contradict or contest Garrett's own statements, especially given they are the "best Turbo Engineers in todays performance turbo market"

    Oh, if you don't believe me, here's the web link to their site - http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...1.html?#t101_3



    Lastly, and this is directed to this forum's administrators - I have no intention, nor was there any original intention, of kickstarting a war of words or product bashing. I have stated the facts as I see them, from my own viewpoint and opinion of my own car and the products developed on it, and have responded I think fairly and openly to Abid's criticisms and comments. i apologise if any members feel I have overstepped the mark in my reply.
    Last edited by E92Fan; 04-18-2010 at 12:11 PM.

  11. #36
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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    It's hard to imagine not including water cooling for a street car setup given the huge benefit of our electric water pumps running post-shutdown. If this were a strictly drag application where use is limited that might be another scenario...

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by George Smooth Click here to enlarge
    I do not feel ASR's response in this thread is warranted although I also do not think that another Vendors response in thread is created is warranted neither. It would be more suitable to create a new thread and discuss the pro's and con's of water cooling on a turbo.
    I do not think that ASR would use a subpar cooling and lubrication system and neither would Garret for matter. In my books I am of the opinion that water cooling is old school and it has always been week point of Mitsubishi in my books. There is so much more that can go wrong having a additional cooling system for the turbo. End of the day the manufacturer knows under what engineering guidelines the turbo was developed and if it does not have water cooling it was designed not to have it and should work equally well as another turbo with water cooling.
    when I read this it reminded me of KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)......this is something my engineering teacher always told us

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    I haven't seen anything on the Honeywell or Garrett websites, and I've called Boost Logic, AMS and Buschur racing, non of them have modern turbo kits that don't utilize water cooling.
    AMS clipped the turbos for the 335i which proved to be un-beneficial for them and thats why they gave up on the project and sold or are in the process of selling the car....sooo idk how good that shop is. I do know that they were supposing building a 1000 all wheel horsepower GTR, but I havent heard anything about it in awhile so idk if they gave up or are sill working on it.....i saw it on youtube Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E92Fan Click here to enlarge
    5) At the end of the day, the fact is that there are options out on the market for customers to choose for themselves. An ASR solution to turbo upgrades will work for some people, Rob Beck upgrade will work for others, a Turbo Dynamics solution will be fine for another subset of customer base. It makes me laugh how fearful some companies are of competition - if their products are good, they will succeed in a competitive market place. Competition makes the best product stand out, surely?
    I believe Rob Beck is in the process of tuning his turbos soo this should be interesting.....as for Turbo Dynamics turbos I remember reading you post on e90post awhile back, but dont remember much about...how much power did you finally make to the wheels?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by tek818 Click here to enlarge
    I am neither a customer of AR Design nor ASR, but reputation-wise, I'd buy from AR in a heartbeat.
    I'll buy from ASR in a heartbeat Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lamia2super Click here to enlarge
    when I read this it reminded me of KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)......this is something my engineering teacher always told us



    AMS clipped the turbos for the 335i which proved to be un-beneficial for them and thats why they gave up on the project and sold or are in the process of selling the car....sooo idk how good that shop is. I do know that they were supposing building a 1000 all wheel horsepower GTR, but I havent heard anything about it in awhile so idk if they gave up or are sill working on it.....i saw it on youtube Click here to enlarge



    I believe Rob Beck is in the process of tuning his turbos soo this should be interesting.....as for Turbo Dynamics turbos I remember reading you post on e90post awhile back, but dont remember much about...how much power did you finally make to the wheels?



    I'll buy from ASR in a heartbeat Click here to enlarge
    AMS is far more reputable in my eyes than ASR. AMS has built several record setting EVOs, and built one of the most impressive time attack EVO Xs in the world, not to mention their older ones. They also recently set a record with that GTR you are talking about, the first one in the 9s, the smoothest, drama-free 9 second car I have ever seen. All of the work was their own, and there is a reason the owner went to them for his build. AMS did not design that turbo kit for the N54, they simply dyno'd it and helped with tuning. Apparently to them there were bigger, more important projects to work on. All of their in-house designs are top-quality, and when you call them they do not feed you bull$#@! to sell you something, they know what works and they are honest. Just check out AMSblog, you will see that they are a top-notch shop. Don't even get me started on Boost Logic, if anyone knows how to build a Turbo I6 it is them.....
    Last edited by fundahl; 04-19-2010 at 04:21 PM.

  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    AMS is far more reputable in my eyes than ASR. AMS has built several record setting EVOs, and built one of the most impressive time attack EVO Xs in the world, not to mention their older ones. They also recently set a record with that GTR you are talking about, the first one in the 9s, the smoothest, drama-free 9 second car I have ever seen. All of the work was their own, and their is a reason the owner went to them for his build. AMS did not design that turbo kit for the N54, they simply dyno'd it and helped with tuning. Apparently to them there were bigger, more important projects to work on. All of their in-house designs are top-quality, and when you call them they do not feed you bull$#@! to sell you something, they know what works and they are honest. Just check out AMSblog, you will see that they are a top-notch shop. Don't even get me started on Boost Logic, if anyone knows how to build a Turbo I6 it is them.....
    gotcha Click here to enlarge idk much about them so I couldn't tell you anything beyond what i know. let me ask you this who design that turbo kit for the 335i then? because iv seen the pictures of the turbos/car and they have AMS written all over it even the detailed list of the cars mods it says AMS turbo kit from what I remember.

    as for ASR I know Abid personally and he is a great guy and really does know his stuff
    Click here to enlarge

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    0 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by tek818 Click here to enlarge
    You look even pettier by completely disregarding his technical claims and choosing to attack him personally. If you want to shut him and all the nay-sayers up, disprove them with FACTS and documentation. Vendors that talk big game and have no data to back it up are what is truly "dime a dozen" in this industry. All I understand from your response is that you have admitted you are using old, sub-par technology. I am neither a customer of AR Design nor ASR, but reputation-wise, I'd buy from AR in a heartbeat.
    I don't think your familiar with the fact that AR has been pulling this kind of crap since over a year ago when we developed these turbo upgrades. We've provided more than sufficient data to support our product that we feel is necassry. We have done this several times on several different forums and don't feel that we have to keep repeating ourselves on a proven product because AR chooses to keep asking the same questions over and over again. We are not about to give out privelaged information, which is what AR is seeking for considerinng he's been trying to do turbo upgrades for a while now. If you haven't read the data we provided on numerous other forums that disprove AR's claims about our turbos, that doesn't make it an admission of guilt on our part. I simply refuse to keep repeating myself just to satify AR's claims, because at this point it's just so insignificant. I am more than happy to answer questions to potential customers, but I draw the line at answering questions from someone who considers himself a competitor and only asks these questions for malicious intent.

    Imagine constantly getting badgered by someone who is a kid that makes DP's for an N54 and proclaims himself as someone who is a knowledgable bmw tuner. This kid has no BMW background at all up until building DP's 2-3 years ago for N54's. What is his educational background in the field, he's defintely not an engineer by any means. Does he manufacture, tune, or even have any factory BMW diagnosing equipment for any other BMW's at all? The answer is no, yet he continues to try and discredit someone who has been tuning all types of BMW's for 15 years. This is his MO, try to discredit another company's product in an attempt to boost his own self image, which he has a documented history of doing with several other companies as well. The fact of the matter is that he has no product to compete against us with, so why does he even bother?

    Sorry to everyone for this thread taking the wrong direction!
    Last edited by Abid@ASR; 04-22-2010 at 11:51 AM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E92Fan Click here to enlarge
    1) The comment that 'water lines is a disaster waiting to happen' is not solely directed at ASR. I believe that RD are also using Garrett cores without water cooling. Of course, if you and RD use the same turbos, I can see why you are assuming that the comment is directed 'solely' at you

    2) You love how "these guys that know nothing about engineering, physics, or metallurgy make assumption from knowledge they acquire from internet boards and magazines..." What, if anything, do you actually know about me? Is it your assumption that my knowledge comes from Internet boards and magazines? I would like to know how you have come to that conclusion. Unless of course you are generalising and giving 'uneducated and false information' about me

    3) The guys who discussed the benefits, or disadvantages, of retaining water cooling, are the same guys "that know nothing about engineering, physics, or metallurgy make assumption from knowledge they acquire from internet boards and magazines." They are the same guys that started work on turbo development in 1991. They are the same guys who have one of the most secure reputations on turbo design within Europe. They are also one of Garrett's largest clients in the UK.

    4) You're not here to bash anyone's product. So why are you attempting to bash someone's reputation, without knowing anything about them? I personally find that offensive, childish and representative of someone immature and lacking in confidence in themselves or their own products

    5) At the end of the day, the fact is that there are options out on the market for customers to choose for themselves. An ASR solution to turbo upgrades will work for some people, Rob Beck upgrade will work for others, a Turbo Dynamics solution will be fine for another subset of customer base. It makes me laugh how fearful some companies are of competition - if their products are good, they will succeed in a competitive market place. Competition makes the best product stand out, surely?

    6) I have no beef or bone of contention with ASR. I personally am not a reseller or manufacturer, so I don't really care whether you feel you're getting bashed or not. I make no commercial gain out of documenting what is going on with my car. If you are not aware, the post that member "Turbo Dynamics UK" made was actually a direct copy of my own post on another forum. I gave them no consent to use my comments and opinions as public support of their own product.

    7) I have one quick question, which is based on actual facts - Garrett's current medium-frame turbochargers (GT25, GT28, GT30 & GT35, of which there are a total of 32 variants according to Garrett's latest list) all use oil and water cooled bearings. Only the GT32 variant, of which there is one, is oil-cooled only. Why is that?

    Lastly, and this is directed to this forum's administrators - I have no intention, nor was there any original intention, of kickstarting a war of words or product bashing. I have stated the facts as I see them, from my own viewpoint and opinion of my own car and the products developed on it, and have responded I think fairly and openly to Abid's criticisms and comments. i apologise if any members feel I have overstepped the mark in my reply.
    It's apparent that since you don't know much about current turbo technology, you are sourcing your information from the internet to discredit BB turbos that don't use water. The fact that you sourced your information from the internet does not make it factual even if it does come from Garretts website. The fact of the matter is that you failed to do your internet research properly and based your claim on partial information. Have you ever heard of ceramic ballbearing housings? I don't think you have, otherwise you wouldn't be preaching about a subject you couldn't be wrong on. Ceramic bearings have many advantages over standard BB cartridges, faster spool, rebuildable bearing housings, and no water lines needed. The main reason why ceramic bearing turbos don't require water is simply due to the fact that ceramic doesn't expand and retract from hot and cold temperature like normal steel BB's do. Standard steel BB's require water due to their rate of expansion and retraction and can not be rebuilt. Lastly, ceramic bearing turbos outspool conventional steel BB turbos due to less frictional drag loss. Why do you think our upgraded turbos spool faster than stock, as proven with our dyno results? I'd like to see an RD Sport turbo that you claim is the same, provide the same results or any other turbo uprade for that matter.

    The CHRA's that we use are orginally a Garrett product, then modified to our specs including the bearing housing. Furthermore, the only thing similar to RD Sports turbo upgrades and ours is that the both companies turbine housings are machined similarly because that is the only correct way to do it.

    So, in conclusion I've based what I said on the fact that you don't have any knowledge on the subject by the statement you made which you and everyone here knows now is obviously incorrect. The information on Garrett's website is correct based on the products they are working with, nothing more. Although, generalizing that information as being the holy grail is what sparked this discussion and proved your claim as being wrong.

  17. #42
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Abid@ASR Click here to enlarge
    It's apparent that since you don't know much about current turbo technology, you are sourcing your information from the internet to discredit BB turbos that don't use water. The fact that you sourced your information from the internet does not make it factual even if it does come from Garretts website. The fact of the matter is that you failed to do your internet research properly and based your claim on partial information. Have you ever heard of ceramic ballbearing housings? I don't think you have, otherwise you wouldn't be preaching about a subject you couldn't be wrong on. Ceramic bearings have many advantages over standard BB cartridges, faster spool, rebuildable bearing housings, and no water lines needed. The main reason why ceramic bearing turbos don't require water is simply due to the fact that ceramic doesn't expand and retract from hot and cold temperature like normal steel BB's do. Standard steel BB's require water due to their rate of expansion and retraction and can not be rebuilt. Lastly, ceramic bearing turbos outspool conventional steel BB turbos due to less frictional drag loss. Why do you think our upgraded turbos spool faster than stock, as proven with our dyno results? I'd like to see an RD Sport turbo that you claim is the same, provide the same results or any other turbo uprade for that matter.

    The CHRA's that we use are orginally a Garrett product, then modified to our specs including the bearing housing. Furthermore, the only thing similar to RD Sports turbo upgrades and ours is that the both companies turbine housings are machined similarly because that is the only correct way to do it.

    So, in conclusion I've based what I said on the fact that you don't have any knowledge on the subject by the statement you made which you and everyone here knows now is obviously incorrect. The information on Garrett's website is correct based on the products they are working with, nothing more. Although, generalizing that information as being the holy grail is what sparked this discussion and proved your claim as being wrong.
    Some info from Percision Turbo:

    These new dbb cartridges use dual ceramic ball bearings, as opposed to steel bearings. Ceramic is a more heat tolerant material, so there is no need for water cooling provisions. These units are fully rebuildable with component parts. This allows for less costly rebuilds in the event of an incident.

    Are these units more vulnerable to heat soak without the water cooling option? Do we have to worry about oil coking?
    Assuming that you are using clean, filtered oil that is changed every 3000 miles, there should not be any issues. Water cooling was introduced only at the request of OEs to meet demands of longer oil change intervals. A properly designed air cooling approach, combined with the best bearing materials available, allows us to do away with all of the cluttered water cooling lines. As a side note, the TR30R (Garrett's highly revered and only turbocharger designed for racing) has won countless 24 hour races using a steel ball bearing, air cooled center section. This same design concept has also been incorporated into the GT4708R, GT4718R and GT5533R turbochargers.

    From what I have found it DOES seem to be more harsh on your oil, but If you have a car you track a lot and change oil often then it most likely will not be a problem. Also, there are water-cooled Ceramic BB kits out there, and they seem to be the leaders in terms of turbo efficiency and durability, so the ceramic bearings are defiantly a good thing. I think it would be beneficial for ASR to list the full specifications of their kit in order to avoid confusion in the future, I had not seen any mention of their turbos using dual ceramic bearings until just recently, in this thread.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Abid@ASR Click here to enlarge
    It's apparent that since you don't know much about current turbo technology, you are sourcing your information from the internet to discredit BB turbos that don't use water. The fact that you sourced your information from the internet does not make it factual even if it does come from Garretts website. The fact of the matter is that you failed to do your internet research properly and based your claim on partial information. Have you ever heard of ceramic ballbearing housings? I don't think you have, otherwise you wouldn't be preaching about a subject you couldn't be wrong on. Ceramic bearings have many advantages over standard BB cartridges, faster spool, rebuildable bearing housings, and no water lines needed. The main reason why ceramic bearing turbos don't require water is simply due to the fact that ceramic doesn't expand and retract from hot and cold temperature like normal steel BB's do. Standard steel BB's require water due to their rate of expansion and retraction and can not be rebuilt. Lastly, ceramic bearing turbos outspool conventional steel BB turbos due to less frictional drag loss. Why do you think our upgraded turbos spool faster than stock, as proven with our dyno results? I'd like to see an RD Sport turbo that you claim is the same, provide the same results or any other turbo uprade for that matter.

    The CHRA's that we use are orginally a Garrett product, then modified to our specs including the bearing housing. Furthermore, the only thing similar to RD Sports turbo upgrades and ours is that the both companies turbine housings are machined similarly because that is the only correct way to do it.

    So, in conclusion I've based what I said on the fact that you don't have any knowledge on the subject by the statement you made which you and everyone here knows now is obviously incorrect. The information on Garrett's website is correct based on the products they are working with, nothing more. Although, generalizing that information as being the holy grail is what sparked this discussion and proved your claim as being wrong.

    Great, so you're using the latest ceramic ball-bearing technology which has a lower contraction/expansion rate with regards to heat, compared to a conventional thrust bearing and journal bearing assembly. We know that dual ball-bearing assemblies have less frictional drag so have much faster response time. Ceramic technology takes this a step further. I never disputed any of this, nor did I make mention of it. My contention is not about your use of the ceramic cartridge being able to withstand heat retention. My issue is to do with the lack of water cooling to prevent oil coking.

    Are you telling everyone here, that a hot ceramic turbo with an air-cooled core will dissipate heat from the oil faster than a normal core that uses water-cooling when the car is stationary and the engine turned off? I go for a drive, come back, park the car up, turn the engine off... with water lines, the electric water pump still circulates water through the lines and the water draws the heat away from the core. On an air-coooled ceramic core, no matter how high-tech the core, the heat soak is still there and there's nothing drawing the heat away. Correct me if I'm wrong. Sure, the ceramic core may be able to withstand the heat soak, but have you considered the issue of oil coking ?? Or is that not an issue for you? Are you expecting people to change oil every 3000 miles to prevent this from happening?

    I have noticed your method of defending your product is to attack the credibility of people who pose questions about the technology you have chosen to use. You seem to try and justify your lofty position as a person of 'knowledge' by attempting to flatten people around you. A psychologist would call it something along the lines of a "God complex". I repeat again, if your product is as good as you say it is, you don't have to go down the route of trying to make yourself seem superior to all those around you. In fact, it does you no credit at all and your real underlying character and professionalism is there for all to see.

    Instead of bleating on about how much I don't know, why don't you tell us how much you DO know and answer the question about the relevance of water cooling and its relation to oil coking. It's a very simple question and your answer needn't be shrouded in misdirection and blase accusations about me, as again you have NO idea who I am or what I do for a living... Incidentally, you should reread my post very carefully - where did I claim that the RD turbos and ASR turbos are one and the same?
    Last edited by E92Fan; 04-23-2010 at 08:42 AM.

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    This is hilarious. The story keeps changing. Now they are ceramic ball bearings. Is there anyone who can confirm this? ASR said two years ago, in Aug 2008 that the turbos are completed. Now two years later we hear for the first time that in fact they are ceramic. Seems to me that the originals never really worked and they might indeed try to get the ceramic versions working without water cooling. Looking forward to the next new claim of say external wastegates, since it would take care of the wastegate rattle issue Click here to enlarge

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    My responses aren't based on personal attacks, just facts that I have the knowledge of because it's what I've been doing professionally for a living the last 15 years. I don't expect for a consumer to understand or have the background to understand the basis of product engineering and development and it's level of implamentation, that's why I'm here to answer those questions. On the other hand when you base your question in manner to discredit our product with incorrect research and mis-information, be prepared for me to correct you and question your level of competency on the subject. I don't need to know who you are or what you do for a living, because your education on the subject or lack there of speaks for itself.

    Moving on to the question at hand. I have addressed this before and would be more than happy explain it again. If you carefully look at a CHRA that is built with ceramic bearings, you will always see a distinct difference in bearing housing design over a water cooled CHRA. The ceramic bearing CHRA's are specifically engineered to disipate oil heat soak by design. The engineers that design these ceramic bearing housings are doing so, knowing full and well what the negative affect oil heat soak can have on a bearing housing without water cooling. Now, this is not to say that water pumps for stock turbos aren't a good idea. BMW has no choice but to do so since the mitsubishi turbos they are using are built on a platform based on bearing housing technology used decades ago. It's no secret that the stock mitsubishi turbos are exteremly inferior in every aspect as compared to any Garrett turbos. Even with the factory water pumps implamented, the stock turbos still have a high level of failure and oil leaks even in stock boost form. Lets's not forget that all major vehicle manufacturers that have produce turbo charged vehicles also run water lines to increase mileage between oil change intervals as well. Changing your oil at 3k miles with ceramic bearing turbos is simply a preventative measure implamented for increased wear life. Now if you're suggesting that people with these types of performance mods shouldn't be changing their engine oil every 3000-3500 miles anyway or that it's too expensive, this hobby is not for you. Regardless of what turbos you are using, this should be a rule of thumb with a performance modifed engines even with synthetic oil. Lastly, ceramic bb's have been tested to last 5 times longer than standard steel bb's with water cooling. That being said the standard ceramic bb CHRA's will not only oultast a standard steel bb chra, with the proper maintanence, it is also rebuildable. So, based on these facts there is no doubt in my mind that ceramic bb chra's are far superior to any other bb or journal bearing chra's on the market today.
    Last edited by Abid@ASR; 04-23-2010 at 11:26 AM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    This is hilarious. The story keeps changing. Now they are ceramic ball bearings. Is there anyone who can confirm this? ASR said two years ago, in Aug 2008 that the turbos are completed. Now two years later we hear for the first time that in fact they are ceramic. Seems to me that the originals never really worked and they might indeed try to get the ceramic versions working without water cooling. Looking forward to the next new claim of say external wastegates, since it would take care of the wastegate rattle issue Click here to enlarge
    I guess that cat's out of the bag now, seems like you got us all figured out! Keep seeming to think you got us all figured out while our car has been running with the same turbos we installed over a year and a half ago. Don't believe me, just ask any local miami board member that has seen our car on a regular both on the streets, at 1 mile events, and at the shop. By the way, I would love to hear your theory as to how an external wastegate would work with the factory actuated boost logic system.

  22. #47
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Abid@ASR Click here to enlarge
    My responses aren't based on personal attacks, just facts that I have the knowledge of because it's what I've been doing professionally for a living the last 15 years. I don't expect for a consumer to understand or have the background to understand the basis of product engineering and development and it's level of implamentation, that's why I'm here to answer those questions. On the other hand when you base your question in manner to discredit our product with incorrect research and mis-information, be prepared for me to correct you and question your level of competency on the subject. I don't need to know who you are or what you do for a living, because your education on the subject or lack there of speaks for itself.

    Moving on to the question at hand. I have addressed this before and would be more than happy explain it again. If you carefully look at a CHRA that is built with ceramic bearings, you will always see a distinct difference in bearing housing design over a water cooled CHRA. The ceramic bearing CHRA's are specifically engineered to disipate oil heat soak by design. The engineers that design these ceramic bearing housings are doing so, knowing full and well what the negative affect oil heat soak can have on a bearing housing without water cooling. Now, this is not to say that water pumps for stock turbos aren't a good idea. BMW has no choice but to do so since the mitsubishi turbos they are using are built on a platform based on bearing housing technology used decades ago. It's no secret that the stock mitsubishi turbos are exteremly inferior in every aspect as compared to any Garrett turbos. Even with the factory water pumps implamented, the stock turbos still have a high level of failure and oil leaks even in stock boost form. Lets's not forget that all major vehicle manufacturers that have produce turbo charged vehicles also run water lines to increase mileage between oil change intervals as well. Changing your oil at 3k miles with ceramic bearing turbos is simply a preventative measure implamented for increased wear life. Now if you're suggesting that people with these types of performance mods shouldn't be changing their engine oil every 3000-3500 miles anyway or that it's too expensive, this hobby is not for you. Regardless of what turbos you are using, this should be a rule of thumb with a performance modifed engines even with synthetic oil. Lastly, ceramic bb's have been tested to last 5 times longer than standard steel bb's with water cooling. That being said the standard ceramic bb CHRA's will not only oultast a standard steel bb chra, with the proper maintanence, it is also rebuildable. So, based on these facts there is no doubt in my mind that ceramic bb chra's are far superior to any other bb or journal bearing chra's on the market today.
    Abid, just to let you know, all the information you stated above I found out myself before you posted by using the internet. I would not discredit it as a learning tool, new information or not. The real thing to watch out is accepting everything you see on the internet as fact, I like to have data to back up the claim.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Abid@ASR Click here to enlarge
    Moving on to the question at hand. I have addressed this before and would be more than happy explain it again. If you carefully look at a CHRA that is built with ceramic bearings, you will always see a distinct difference in bearing housing design over a water cooled CHRA. The ceramic bearing CHRA's are specifically engineered to disipate oil heat soak by design. The engineers that design these ceramic bearing housings are doing so, knowing full and well what the negative affect oil heat soak can have on a bearing housing without water cooling.
    How? How do these special ceramic bearing housings dissipate heat? What form of heat absorption, or heat withdrawal, is being used to dissipate the heat? Is it the air (hot) surrounding the turbo that draws the heat away from within? I assume with all your 15 years of experience with BMWs that you have data on how much better these ceramic bearings perform with heat soak etc. Why don't you share the data with us? All the information you have presented so far I have "found on the internet" and says nothing new

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Abid@ASR Click here to enlarge
    Even with the factory water pumps implamented, the stock turbos still have a high level of failure and oil leaks even in stock boost form. Lets's not forget that all major vehicle manufacturers that have produce turbo charged vehicles also run water lines to increase mileage between oil change intervals as well.
    So why not keep the water lines in your turbo assembly? Your two sentences above acknowledge the benefit of having water lines, and you even state that water lines don't alleviate all the problems of failure and oil leaks. So why take the risk, even with your high-tech cores, and not have water lines at all?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Abid@ASR Click here to enlarge
    Changing your oil at 3k miles with ceramic bearing turbos is simply a preventative measure implamented for increased wear life. Now if you're suggesting that people with these types of performance mods shouldn't be changing their engine oil every 3000-3500 miles anyway or that it's too expensive, this hobby is not for you.
    It's not about the expense of changing oil. But from my point of view, a well-engineered product upgrade, engine upgrade, or otherwise, should have a measure of longevity that enables it to be used as a street engine as opposed to a race engine. If you're building a race engine, sure replacing oil and associated parts after every race or every other race is deemed perfectly adequate. But the 335i is a street car, modified or not, and I would think that one of the goals of any manufacturer making modified parts is to make them perform, but with longevity and not requiring super maintenance every 3000 miles.[/quote]

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Abid@ASR Click here to enlarge
    So, based on these facts there is no doubt in my mind that ceramic bb chra's are far superior to any other bb or journal bearing chra's on the market today.
    And no one is doubting this either, based on the facts you have put out there. Again, you seem to miss the point - we are not debating the success or performance of ceramic bearings or whatnot, I am debating the validity and benefit, or lack thereof, of removing water cooling completely. Incidentally, was it too difficult for you to integrate water lines, or was it a conscious and deliberate decision by you not to include that particular feature?

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E92Fan Click here to enlarge
    How? How do these special ceramic bearing housings dissipate heat? What form of heat absorption, or heat withdrawal, is being used to dissipate the heat? Is it the air (hot) surrounding the turbo that draws the heat away from within? I assume with all your 15 years of experience with BMWs that you have data on how much better these ceramic bearings perform with heat soak etc. Why don't you share the data with us? All the information you have presented so far I have "found on the internet" and says nothing new



    So why not keep the water lines in your turbo assembly? Your two sentences above acknowledge the benefit of having water lines, and you even state that water lines don't alleviate all the problems of failure and oil leaks. So why take the risk, even with your high-tech cores, and not have water lines at all?



    It's not about the expense of changing oil. But from my point of view, a well-engineered product upgrade, engine upgrade, or otherwise, should have a measure of longevity that enables it to be used as a street engine as opposed to a race engine. If you're building a race engine, sure replacing oil and associated parts after every race or every other race is deemed perfectly adequate. But the 335i is a street car, modified or not, and I would think that one of the goals of any manufacturer making modified parts is to make them perform, but with longevity and not requiring super maintenance every 3000 miles.


    And no one is doubting this either, based on the facts you have put out there. Again, you seem to miss the point - we are not debating the success or performance of ceramic bearings or whatnot, I am debating the validity and benefit, or lack thereof, of removing water cooling completely. Incidentally, was it too difficult for you to integrate water lines, or was it a conscious and deliberate decision by you not to include that particular feature?[/QUOTE]

    This is all getting a bit ridiculous already. There is nothing more for ASR to prove in regards to the reliability of ceramic bb chra's vs any other water cooled chra. The proof is in the R&D testing amongst industry leaders in the turbo manufacturing industry.

    One of the main reasons why water lines were ever even implamented in turbo systems was for OE use by vehicle manufacturers. The general consumer is not savy on what methods or procedures should be done to maintain a turbo vehicle, therefore water lines were used by OE manufacturers to increase turbo life due to abuse or neglect. As time passed steel BB turbo's were designed and water had to be implamented for the purpose of bearing expansion and retraction. The same argument on the validity of water cooling can be asked of most all journal bearing performance turbos from Garrett as well as Greddy turbos made be Mitsubishi. Are the turbo manufacturers wrong for producing or manufacturing performance turbo upgrades without water lines? Why didn't they produce these performance turbos, that are meant to be driven harder than stock turbos, with water lines? The fact of the matter is because they are not needed. Thus far, there has been no proof or data provided by any turbo manufacturer that claims standard water cooled bearing housings out last or out perform bearing housings with no water lines, provided the fact that they run the same oil and service intervals and are not BB.

    The coking issue with bearing housings stem more so from neglect and abuse, not because they didn't have water lines. If you are the type of guy that has a tendency to drive the car hard and shut it off immediately or go have a tendency not to do scheduled oil changes, then you are just asking for turbo failure water lines or not. Water lines may increase the time it takes to fail, but up until the point of failure the turbo perormance will decrease due to neglect.

    We did not implament water lines in our kit by design and made all the necassary CNC retrofit fittings to accomidate the turbo install and make it easier. Making the water lines for a water cooled turbo is an easier task than CNC'ing all the retrofit fittings to work like factory, so it was not because it was something that was difficult for us to do if we wanted to. Attached are the pics of our water line block off and oil line retrofit kit. There is no cutting or modifying of the stock factory lines to make our system fit. Just simply remove the factory oil feed line and distribution block along with the stock water lines. Once you do that, the stock oil return will bolt directly on to our turbos and the we provide you with the water line block off as well as the new oil feed lines with a factory style distribution block that bolt in like factory.
    Attached Images Attached Images       

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E92Fan Click here to enlarge
    How? How do these special ceramic bearing housings dissipate heat? What form of heat absorption, or heat withdrawal, is being used to dissipate the heat? Is it the air (hot) surrounding the turbo that draws the heat away from within? I assume with all your 15 years of experience with BMWs that you have data on how much better these ceramic bearings perform with heat soak etc. Why don't you share the data with us? All the information you have presented so far I have "found on the internet" and says nothing new



    So why not keep the water lines in your turbo assembly? Your two sentences above acknowledge the benefit of having water lines, and you even state that water lines don't alleviate all the problems of failure and oil leaks. So why take the risk, even with your high-tech cores, and not have water lines at all?



    It's not about the expense of changing oil. But from my point of view, a well-engineered product upgrade, engine upgrade, or otherwise, should have a measure of longevity that enables it to be used as a street engine as opposed to a race engine. If you're building a race engine, sure replacing oil and associated parts after every race or every other race is deemed perfectly adequate. But the 335i is a street car, modified or not, and I would think that one of the goals of any manufacturer making modified parts is to make them perform, but with longevity and not requiring super maintenance every 3000 miles


    And no one is doubting this either, based on the facts you have put out there. Again, you seem to miss the point - we are not debating the success or performance of ceramic bearings or whatnot, I am debating the validity and benefit, or lack thereof, of removing water cooling completely. Incidentally, was it too difficult for you to integrate water lines, or was it a conscious and deliberate decision by you not to include that particular feature?
    This is all getting a bit ridiculous already. There is nothing more for ASR to prove in regards to the reliability of ceramic bb chra's vs any other water cooled chra. The proof is in the R&D testing amongst industry leaders in the turbo manufacturing industry.

    One of the main reasons why water lines were ever even implamented in turbo systems was for OE use by vehicle manufacturers. The general consumer is not savy on what methods or procedures should be done to maintain a turbo vehicle, therefore water lines were used by OE manufacturers to increase turbo life due to abuse or neglect. As time passed steel BB turbo's were designed and water had to be implamented for the purpose of bearing expansion and retraction. The same argument on the validity of water cooling can be asked of most all journal bearing performance turbos from Garrett as well as Greddy turbos made be Mitsubishi. Are the turbo manufacturers wrong for producing or manufacturing performance turbo upgrades without water lines? Why didn't they produce these performance turbos, that are meant to be driven harder than stock turbos, with water lines? The fact of the matter is because they are not needed. Thus far, there has been no proof or data provided by any turbo manufacturer that claims standard water cooled bearing housings out last or out perform bearing housings with no water lines, provided the fact that they run the same oil and service intervals and are not BB.

    The coking issue with bearing housings stem more so from neglect and abuse, not because they didn't have water lines. If you are the type of guy that has a tendency to drive the car hard and shut it off immediately or go have a tendency not to do scheduled oil changes, then you are just asking for turbo failure water lines or not. Water lines may increase the time it takes to fail, but up until the point of failure the turbo perormance will decrease due to neglect.

    We did not implament water lines in our kit by design and made all the necassary CNC retrofit fittings to accomidate the turbo install and make it easier. Making the water lines for a water cooled turbo is an easier task than CNC'ing all the retrofit fittings to work like factory, so it was not because it was something that was difficult for us to do if we wanted to. Attached are the pics of our water line block off and oil line retrofit kit. There is no cutting or modifying of the stock factory lines to make our system fit. Just simply remove the factory oil feed line and distribution block along with the stock water lines. Once you do that, the stock oil return will bolt directly on to our turbos and the we provide you with the water line block off' as well as the new oil feed lines with a factory style distribution block that bolt in like factory
    Attached Images Attached Images       

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