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  1. #1
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    Why HPF won't do a turbo E92 M3 and why a twin turbo E9X M3 will be very difficult

    Hey, I have a great idea, why not turbo the S65?

    I know I'm not the only one who has been thinking this. Hell, I was thinking about this back in early '08 when I contacted Chris at HPF to do a turbo setup on my M3. He quickly talked me of it and I settled on an SC. Why? Why wouldn't HPF do it? Well, read this:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky
    Any updates as far as how you feel about turbos on the E92 M3?

    I know earlier you said there was not much room, but with these new V-band turbos that take up less space, why not?
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by HPF Chris
    We're not going to do the E92 M3. Sorry. It's a lot more than just that. Maybe some day, but we're doing the 335i next.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky
    Chris.
    I understand and thanks for your response. Any words of warning for what more there is as I intend to push forward with a custom setup?
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by HPF Chris
    For anyone to make a custom "one-off" twin turbo setup run properly in all situations on the E92 M3 will run roughly $250,000 - $400,000. I'm not sure what your budget is. If I did that car for "production" reasons, it would cost me around $500-$600K and I would try to get the price of each kit I sold down to $25K for a stage 1. I would probably have to sell 50 kits minimum to break even.
    Now, you may be scratching your head wondering, why $400k? Well, I'll give you a hint, it isn't the hardware. HPF got a standalone from AEM for their setup which did not come cheap. To get the programming and everything necessary, it took a boatload of cash. Chris was essentially applying what it took for him to get the E46 done to the E9X. It really is all in the tuning.

    Can't anyone tune the S65 with a turbo?

    Well no, anyone can't. It takes a very special someone. Let's assume for the moment the hardware isn't a challenge. Who the hell is going to tune this thing? We have companies that still don't even have their superchargers on the market. Are all the tables in the DME figured out? No, they aren't, there still is a lot there and if the braintrust in Europe hasn't cracked this stuff yet it sure hasn't trickled down to the tuners in the USA. GIAC has yet to finish their SC tuning so could they do it? Active is in the same boat, could they do it? If companies are still figuring out their SC tuning what does that tell you about the complexities of the DME with an SC let alone with two turbos? HPF just flat out said it is too cost prohibitive.

    Trying to tune this thing on the factory ECU would require someone spectacular. BMW does not make this easy on anyone and actually goes out of their way to make it difficult. Honestly, I always find it funny that BMW caters more to the people leasing their cars who are more likely to dump BMW for whatever sport sedan happens to be trendy next when the lease is up rather than to their hardcore clientèle that sticks with them through thick and thin and wants to keep the cars. You would think BMW would care more about the hardcore guys who love and keep their BMW's but in reality they care more about getting as many people into leases as they can who won't touch the cars let alone the ecu.

    The BMW motorsport parts are definitely a step in the right direction but would it kill BMW to just point us all in the right direction? Void my stupid warranty, I don't care. Just give us a list of all the tables and lines all decoded . Just for once BMW, could you pretend your hardcore crowd that purchases aftermarket parts and sticks with you is relevant and exists? Some of us want more than steering wheels with LCD's you know. Sorry, I digress.

    So why not just get a standalone if the factory ECU is so complicated?

    Click here to enlarge

    Sounds simple, doesn't it? Well, it cost HPF a ton of money to get a standalone and programming sophisticated enough to do the E46 M3's 25 million calculations a second. The S65 DME takes this to a whole new level. AEM doesn't have anything that can handle it as of today. What about Motec? Possibly, we have a person trying to get this to work right now as user George Smooth told us here: http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...ighlight=motec . Will he succeed? We will have to wait and see.

    There is one standalone out there that is being used with the S65 and even the S85 right now. The Pectel SQ6M12 ECU has been used to run the BMW V10 engine as found in the E60 M5 and E63 M6 with great success, according to Pectel. Pectel also states the SQ6M ECU has been used with the S65 in the E92 M3. Personally, I haven't seen or heard of anyone in the USA running these standalones successfully with a turbo setup. Evosport is actually building a S85 twin turbo swap into an E92 as of right now and is going the Pectel Stand alone route. The car being built belongs to my friend Ramiz but clearly this is going to be a time consuming project. When the car is done with the standalone and twin turbos on the V10 we will have more answers but when will that be? No one expects a project of that caliber to be done in a short time frame.

    So if Pectel has a capable ECU, why not just go that route?

    Click here to enlarge

    Well, Pectel and their distributer Apex Speed Technology would have you believe it is as simple as programming your alarm clock:

    Working with Pectel in the UK, we modifed a stock BMW V10 engine harness and built a custom chassis harness to run the BMW V10 fully sequentially. Aside from a cable-throttle conversion, this engine uses the stock sensors, no extra boxes or drivers needed! It runs the dual vanos, electric oil pumps and all 10 cylinders fully sequentially, no problem. With an easy, managable 600hp on tap, this is the ultimate engine for a project car. Better still, with Apex's electronics system, transplants are a breeze.

    Thanks to our carefully engineered system, the engine started and ran the first time - no additional changed or mods were needed. Which was a good thing, since the engine was in Holland - a long ways from us in Southern California.

    No motor is too challenging for Apex! We've got 3 more in the pipeline with Traction Control, Drive-By-Wire and more! Give us a call to do yours.
    If that is the case, why isn't everyone doing it? Forget the SC's, let's all get standalones and turbos. It honestly is not quite that simple. First of all, the Pectel ECU is going to run you $6-7k. Ouch.. but ok, let's assume that is not a road block. Well, you have a $7k piece of plastic sitting there if you don't have the programming for it. Who is going to write you all the maps and tables, codes, etc.? That is all custom my friends even if you have some base maps provided as a starting point. And custom tuning from scratch is not exactly easy or cheap. We are talking hundreds of hours. Considering what an average tuner bills these days, let's assume they give you some kind of discount and it runs $80 per hour. Well, thing is at least another $8k alone for the tuning. That is just to get the turbos running correctly with the motor let alone making sure the i-drive isn't freaking out, traction control works, vanos is fine, the DCT understands it all, launch control still works, etc. etc. That doesn't even include the dyno time. See the problem?

    Ditching the factory ECU is a problem in itself, especially for a street car where you want all your other electronic gadgets to work just like stock. This is why I believe tuning the factory ECU is the best way to go as you leave everything else in place and change what you need to change. I am not saying a standalone is a bad approach, it isn't, and HPF proves that, but the amount of time and money necessary to get everything to work the way it should work on an E9X with its more complicated electronics and transmission is going to bury anyone financially.

    The best approach may be to use the factory ecu in combination with a stand alone or a piggyback of some sort. I just haven't seen anyone use a piggyback on the S65 and I don't know if we even have any good options in this area. Someone more experienced would have to chime in.

    Wow, so it doesn't work like Gran Turismo? What about the hardware?

    Oh, the software aspect didn't scare you off? Well, let's assume you found some kind of solution that does not involve you having the budget of an F1 team. The M3 is a V8. That means the turbo solution is most likely going to be twin. Why? Split manifold and limited space is why. Even with twins the space is a huge constraint. It is *REALLY* tight underneath there.

    Well what about top mount?

    Top mounted twins would be sweet, no doubt, but do you see a place to put em? A pic from our good friends at EAS may assist:

    Click here to enlarge

    Because I don't. Maybe a top mount single where the airbox is could work but that would be a huge hurdle in of itself with all the piping, etc. They will have to go underneath and that will limit turbo sizing as well as require some very nice manifold design. The engineering will have to be top notch but mechanically underneath the car it can be done. It just is a huge challenge that I don't know who will tackle.

    So will we see turbos on the S65?

    Oh, you bet your ass we will. I do know it has already been attempted from a few parties. The question is when? Remember, we did not have these awesome HPF setups until the M3 was out of production. First, a tuning solution needs to be found. There is a lot more in the DME that needs to be cracked and the tuner will really need to know what they are doing and be dedicated to do it correctly. Especially if using the factory DME which I would say creates too many other headaches to completely abandon. So either someone will really have to completely figure out the DME or use a Piggy/Standalone in conjunction. It certainly is not impossible. The hardware is not impossible either, it just will take some great engineering and dedication here as well.

    Turbos on the S65 will be a game changer. It just will take time, but you better believe people are going to be trying as it will be a monumental achievement with incredible payoff, if anyone is able to pull it off.

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    Insightful post, and props for actually having feedback from HPF rather than mere speculative here-say.

    I think it's tough to say if someone will take the plunge and develop a "production" twin turbo system for the E92. I can say with some degree of certainty that we will see custom one-offs, but it will take some real dedication and faith for a major tuner to bring an off-the-shelf kit to market.

    That being said, I would put my money on AMS technology-wise. They're doing some amazing things with the GT-R, and they have both the resources and expertise to make it happen.

    http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index....c=34988&st=120

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  3. #3
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    2nd on AMS, they can do anything. The GTR seems to be just as complex, if not more. The trickiest part is going to be getting the ECU to work, which isn't as much of a problem with the R35 considering it is factory turbocharged.

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    There is plenty of room for 2 top mounts. All that stuff on the passenger side can be relocated as needed. The best approach for tuning, as you said, would be a piggy back system, just like HPF does it with the s54. They didn't have to change or tune anything as far as traction control, launch control, ect.

    I think we will definitely see some turbos on the s65 at some point, but I hope it's sooner than later.

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    +1 Click here to enlarge

    both the GTR and M3 ECU's must be coded like a mother, and AMS looks promising! Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by xxe92xx Click here to enlarge
    +1 Click here to enlarge

    both the GTR and M3 ECU's must be coded like a mother, and AMS looks promising! Click here to enlarge
    Being forced induction from the factory is a big difference.

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    I am sure AMS could handle the job, the question - is there enough demand to justify the development costs?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turbology Click here to enlarge
    I am sure AMS could handle the job, the question - is there enough demand to justify the development costs?
    Click here to enlarge
    Oh ya, they could build something and program it but there is no off the shelf solution that they have.

    Is there enough demand? I think so, but HPF is swamped already.

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    A lot of good information in this thread, thanks Sticky! I really wonder how a twin turbo V8 in the e92 M3 would be like...

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    I have gotten a full update in regard to the Motec system on the S65. The vehicle will be tuned on a rolling dyno within the next month although base maps exist from a unknown racing program where other S65 are running. They have managed to solve the knock sensing problem. Apparently signal drivers are situated in the spark suppressor system and all they are doing now is interpreting that signal on the Motec side in order for it to recognize knock as knock.
    Unfortunately they did not go to the extent of having the OEM instrument cluster integrated as they are using the Motec cluster.
    The only other mechanical change that was required was the installation of a oil dip stick which is not as easy as it sounds.
    I am going to wait to wait for the vehicle to do a few races before I decide if its a viable solution for a forced induction application.

    Upon further research on the subject of stand alone on the s65 I have managed to find another S65 powered car locally that is running a locally built stand alone. Luckily I know the tuner pretty well and will try and find more information on the method of approach he used. Here is a link to the video of the car. http://s230.photobucket.com/albums/e...3teststart.flv

  11. #11
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    Great post George, very informative regarding MoTeC advancement! If only the big tuning houses were more open to working together instead of bloodsport competition - AMS could use their CAD expertise for the manifolds and plumbing; these guys could rig the MoTeC.
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  12. #12
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Turbology Click here to enlarge
    Great post George, very informative regarding MoTeC advancement! If only the big tuning houses were more open to working together instead of bloodsport competition - AMS could use their CAD expertise for the manifolds and plumbing; these guys could rig the MoTeC.
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    The unfortunate part of the American Market is that labour is very expensive and development costs so much more than other markets. Companies want to make large out of any product they develop so no one is going to go and partner with a company whose ECU starts at US$3000. That just wont leave enough margin for the big companies to flinch.

    As a matter of interest in the local Group N production series there will be a 335i running with a Motec system as well. More information to follow on that soon.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by George Smooth Click here to enlarge
    I have gotten a full update in regard to the Motec system on the S65. The vehicle will be tuned on a rolling dyno within the next month although base maps exist from a unknown racing program where other S65 are running. They have managed to solve the knock sensing problem. Apparently signal drivers are situated in the spark suppressor system and all they are doing now is interpreting that signal on the Motec side in order for it to recognize knock as knock.
    Unfortunately they did not go to the extent of having the OEM instrument cluster integrated as they are using the Motec cluster.
    The only other mechanical change that was required was the installation of a oil dip stick which is not as easy as it sounds.
    I am going to wait to wait for the vehicle to do a few races before I decide if its a viable solution for a forced induction application.

    Upon further research on the subject of stand alone on the s65 I have managed to find another S65 powered car locally that is running a locally built stand alone. Luckily I know the tuner pretty well and will try and find more information on the method of approach he used. Here is a link to the video of the car. http://s230.photobucket.com/albums/e...3teststart.flv
    Great info man, great info.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Great info man, great info.
    +100000

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    Sticky..there's a guy in Houston who I hear custom fabs turbos on everything and anything..this guy has built many 7-8 sec cars..supposedly he can built a turbo setup for BMW's and Tune it with his custom proprietary software..I hear he's done a Twin turbo setup on an E39 M5 and some other BMW's.

    His name is Jason Herrera and his shop is called Stoopidfast Performance.

    I've been told that if there's anyone who can turbocharge the E92 M3,it's him.

    Just thought i'd pass this info along..

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    st00pid has built some bananas Hondas, I am sure he is capable of applying his knowledge and talent to BMWs. TX has some serious fab guys - Mark at Boost Logic is another maestro.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E92White Click here to enlarge
    Sticky..there's a guy in Houston who I hear custom fabs turbos on everything and anything..this guy has built many 7-8 sec cars..supposedly he can built a turbo setup for BMW's and Tune it with his custom proprietary software..I hear he's done a Twin turbo setup on an E39 M5 and some other BMW's.

    His name is Jason Herrera and his shop is called Stoopidfast Performance.

    I've been told that if there's anyone who can turbocharge the E92 M3,it's him.

    Just thought i'd pass this info along..
    Interesting.

    I'm curious about the proprietary software? I'm he can tune stuff but I mean, what experience would the guy have with the S65 DME?

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Interesting.

    I'm curious about the proprietary software? I'm he can tune stuff but I mean, what experience would the guy have with the S65 DME?
    I have no clue..but alot of people talk very very highly about this guy..I dont know if he'd mass produce turbo kits w/software for the S65 (or any other car for that matter)..I hear he does pure custom work..and when you go to him he'll just straight up ask you ''How fast do you want to go ?''.

    Once you tell him how fast you want to go in the 1/4 mile,my friend tells me he'll say something along the lines : ''ok..i'm gonna custom fab this turbo for you..custom built this intercooler,exhaust,etc. and tune it ''

    Supposedly he'll then show you exactly what turbo he's gonna use,compressor wheels,etc.

    Then once he's done he'll personally go and make sure the car runs what you want.

    He actually flew down here to South Texas to make sure my friends Civic hatchback ran 9's and custom tuned it for his setup.

    My friend told me he's the type of guy that doesnt mess around..if you want a 10 sec car..he'll guarantee you a 10 sec car for X amount of dollars.


    As far his software goes,i'm not sure what its all about..but I've been told this guy doesnt use anybodys stuff..everything is custom made.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E92White Click here to enlarge
    I have no clue..but alot of people talk very very highly about this guy..I dont know if he'd mass produce turbo kits w/software for the S65 (or any other car for that matter)..I hear he does pure custom work..and when you go to him he'll just straight up ask you ''How fast do you want to go ?''.

    Once you tell him how fast you want to go in the 1/4 mile,my friend tells me he'll say something along the lines : ''ok..i'm gonna custom fab this turbo for you..custom built this intercooler,exhaust,etc. and tune it ''

    Supposedly he'll then show you exactly what turbo he's gonna use,compressor wheels,etc.

    Then once he's done he'll personally go and make sure the car runs what you want.

    He actually flew down here to South Texas to make sure my friends Civic hatchback ran 9's and custom tuned it for his setup.

    My friend told me he's the type of guy that doesnt mess around..if you want a 10 sec car..he'll guarantee you a 10 sec car for X amount of dollars.


    As far his software goes,i'm not sure what its all about..but I've been told this guy doesnt use anybodys stuff..everything is custom made.
    Sounds like the guy is very talented I'm just surprised he would have any experience at all with the S65 DME considering we haven't seen anything.

    I prefer the custom approach tailored to my needs but honestly I have never heard of this guy or seen anything. I bet he could do the hardware and whatnot but actually putting together a turbo setup with hardware and tuning that runs perfectly is monumental. It is very different from doing custom applications for B20 swaps into hatchbacks and whatnot and the BMW M3.

    Who is this person anyway?

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Sounds like the guy is very talented I'm just surprised he would have any experience at all with the S65 DME considering we haven't seen anything.

    I prefer the custom approach tailored to my needs but honestly I have never heard of this guy or seen anything. I bet he could do the hardware and whatnot but actually putting together a turbo setup with hardware and tuning that runs perfectly is monumental. It is very different from doing custom applications for B20 swaps into hatchbacks and whatnot and the BMW M3.

    Who is this person anyway?
    Yeah very true..someone should give him a call..see what he says..his name is Jason Herrera..but goes by the nickname ''Stoopid'' since ppl claim he makes stupid power on the cars he tunes,etc.

    I've heard stories of this guy turbocharging lawnmowers,mini crotch rockets,and $#@! like that...Click here to enlarge


    His shop is called Stoopid Performance I believe..and he's in Houston.

    I can try to get his contact info from my friend if you'd like ?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E92White Click here to enlarge

    I can try to get his contact info from my friend if you'd like ?
    You can PM me it if you want, thanks for sharing the info.

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    I guarantee some day someone will slap a pair turbos on an e9X m3
    This is my signature... Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BadBoostedBmwM3 Click here to enlarge
    I guarantee some day someone will slap a pair turbos on an e9X m3
    Definitely, I'd bet on it.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Sounds to me like a copout. Come on, any shop who does this for around 25k will be SWAMPED to build more. Many people tune NA cars. Newer M3s are even a better platform. DCT has been sorted out thanks to the GTR platform.

    One day it will happen.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LuckyEff Click here to enlarge
    Sounds to me like a copout. Come on, any shop who does this for around 25k will be SWAMPED to build more.
    It isn't a cop out. I don't know what shop can or will do this for $25k. Nobody has been able to do it for any sort of budget yet let alone 25k.

    Yes, one day it will happen. By then, we all won't care anymore.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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