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  1. #1
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    M3 Tuner Shootout May 21, 2011 - Bone Stock 2011 M3 on 91 octane

    Click here to enlarge

    There have been a lot of accusations flying around from various tuners as of late. A lot of it has concerned Powerchip and OE Tuning which is no secret to anyone. Well, there were accusations on another board that OE Tuning had been called out to a dyno comparison and it just kind of turned into a mess. We do not need to remind you that a previous shootout was scheduled in which these parties agreed to participate, so it seems neither is scared of the other. Well, BimmerBoost has organized an M3 specific tuner shootout that will be taking place on the 21st of May with a stock M3 on 91 octane for tuners to showcase their skills.

    You may remember we tried to do this before only for ESS to back out of it at the last minute. We have invited ESS again and they are free to participate if they wish. This time we will not be trying to hit a moving target. If ESS wishes to participate, they can. If not, that is their deal but they have been given the courtesy of an invitation and we want to make it clear we do not discourage any tuner from participation.

    As a matter of fact, all tuners are welcome to participate. BimmerBoost will not be running the dyno or operating any equipment simply reporting the graphs as given to us by a third party who will be in charge of those aspects. The shop that will conduct the event will be DC Performance and it will take place on a dynojet.

    Here are the tuners we have contacted in alphabetical order:

    Active Autowerke - No response
    ESS - No response
    Eurocharged - Responded, may participate
    Evolve Automotive - Waiting on response
    GIAC - No response
    MHP - Responded, will participate in track shootout only
    OE Tuning - Responded, participating
    Powerchip - Responded, waiting on further details
    Singh - Responded, may participate
    Turner Motorsport - Responded, waiting on further details

    If any other tuner wishes to participate, please e-mail administrator@bimmerboost.com. If you are from out of state, we can arrange for your file to be flashed by the operator. It will not be touched by anyone from BimmerBoost or any competitor, you will deal with the dyno operator directly.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  2. #2
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    where is it gonna be at? any spectators allowed?
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  3. #3
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fastgti69 Click here to enlarge
    where is it gonna be at? any spectators allowed?
    Spectators are allowed. It will be at DC Performance:

    DC Performance, Inc
    3370 South Livonia Ave.
    Los Angeles, CA 90034
    310.841.6996
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  4. #4
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    Just contacted Evolve as well.

    If anyone has any other tuners in mind, let me know.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    sweet!

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    nice!

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    this sounds like a great idea.. ill be there.. calling them out love it

  8. #8
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Kautiongsr Click here to enlarge
    this sounds like a great idea.. ill be there.. calling them out love it
    It's more like they can all just settle this. We tried this before but this time, date is set, place is set, no excuses. Thing is, trying to get these guys to meet instead of fight online is way harder than it sounds.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  9. #9
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@Camber-Toe Click here to enlarge
    nice!
    Fingers crossed the tuners are more interested in tuning than typing...
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    great idea, im sure the loud mouths and finger pointers wont show though, again

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    great idea, im sure the loud mouths and finger pointers wont show though, again
    That is what I'm thinking but OE Tuning has committed and I have informed everyone.

    So, if someone could explain this to me:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mike@Powerchip
    We've had plenty of wasted opportunities to run this test, and each time you and Jeremy backed down for flimsy reasons.
    Let's not waste this opportunity...
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  12. #12
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    wow, didnt know they said that, its a bit hypocritical no?

  13. #13
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    wow, didnt know they said that, its a bit hypocritical no?
    That remains to be seen.

    OE Tuning and Powerchip did both agree to the previous shootout. It was ESS who backed out.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  14. #14
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    I want Giac to show up. Ive always heard they have good agressive tunes but meh never saw it for myself in the vw scene and dont think they'll do too well on the bmw scene either.

    This is gonna be real good.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  15. #15
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fastgti69 Click here to enlarge
    I want Giac to show up. Ive always heard they have good agressive tunes but meh never saw it for myself in the vw scene and dont think they'll do too well on the bmw scene either.

    This is gonna be real good.
    They didn't respond last time and I doubt they will respond this time either. Would be great... but I doubt it.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    They didn't respond last time and I doubt they will respond this time either. Would be great... but I doubt it.
    Giac has always been for themselves. theyve never been active on the vw forums either. :/ it would be some nice info to have tho
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  17. #17
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fastgti69 Click here to enlarge
    Giac has always been for themselves. theyve never been active on the vw forums either. :/ it would be some nice info to have tho
    We'll see.... Click here to enlarge
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Here's the problem with something like this.

    For the sake of a few dyno runs a tuner (like us) could easily put a tune in for the dyno shootout which is extremely aggressive with all safety switched completely off.

    We could turn off adaptation for high oil and coolant temps. We can raise ignition to points where it runs a static ignition giving massive power. This type of tune we KNOW will have long term effects on the engine and in some cases in short term (few thousand miles). We can use very aggressive cam angles amongst the many other RF related maps etc etc

    Who's to say we would not do this to come up as the most powerful in this?

    The other problem is who is responsible for making sure all temperatures are kept consistent? Who will do the datalogging?

    This is not as simple as it seems and you could be witnessing unsafe maps rather than the release versions which retain a large degree of safety.

    You could also have the following scenario:

    Evolve comes on and does a tune. Way too much ignition, totally unsafe and it gains power but there is some detonation detected. The adaptive values for knock will now be negative. Next tuner, say OE comes along. Does a great map which is safe and is genuinely good. However, the ECU is removing ignition now of say -3 deg per cylinder average. What happens? The bad tune ends up looking better than the good one!

    Are we resetting adaptations between tunes?

    Are we looking at MAX Power or are we studying the gains per tune?

    What is the exact strategy here or should I put down some guidelines? I would prefer if the other participants would put their ideas forward before I do.

    Sorry for putting a downer on this but this is the kind of stuff that happens on tests like these. I think it's important for the watching public to know this.

  19. #19
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    The other problem is who is responsible for making sure all temperatures are kept consistent? Who will do the datalogging?
    Logging will be done by the operator. It will be impossible to keep all temperatures constant through the day but no reason we can't mention the temps.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    For the sake of a few dyno runs a tuner (like us) could easily put a tune in for the dyno shootout which is extremely aggressive with all safety switched completely off.

    We could turn off adaptation for high oil and coolant temps. We can raise ignition to points where it runs a static ignition giving massive power. This type of tune we KNOW will have long term effects on the engine and in some cases in short term (few thousand miles). We can use very aggressive cam angles amongst the many other RF related maps etc etc

    Who's to say we would not do this to come up as the most powerful in this?
    The idea is to give the tune you would give to a customer as this will be an independent car. A glory will also be easily exposed with all the logs, won't it?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    Are we resetting adaptations between tunes?
    I believe so, this would be necessary right?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    Are we looking at MAX Power or are we studying the gains per tune?
    Both.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    What is the exact strategy here or should I put down some guidelines? I would prefer if the other participants would put their ideas forward before I do.

    Sorry for putting a downer on this but this is the kind of stuff that happens on tests like these. I think it's important for the watching public to know this.
    Not a downer at all! This is great.

    Absolutely set some guidelines down as a tuner. I don't even want to be involved in that, you guys need to agree. All I intend to do is report the guidelines and the results. You guys figure out the playing field and I will make sure the operator enforces it.

    This is good Click here to enlarge
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Logging temps is really important.

    Once intake temps start rising your stuffed.

    The idea might be that we want a tune that goes on a normal customers car but you CANNOT control this. Unless of course you give all the tunes to an independant person to check..... which ain't happening!!

    Max power should be thrown straight out of the window and the concentration should be on gains above standard baseline.

    The fairest way is as follows:

    Car is dyno tested completely standard. Ideally 140E software should be loaded before hand as it is the last known software which is not tuner protected.
    The stock file is then reflashed in again, adaptations reset and a consistent baseline achieved.

    1st tuner loads his file. Results taken.

    Car is then flashed back with stock software and another base line done. Adaptations reset.

    Next tuner comes along loads his software.

    This is THE ONLY way to fairly test because it removes any changes in weather conditions and we concentrate on gains.

    Max power is not recommended here at all because conditions will change.

    The gain in power over a stock software is the most important factor here, everything else does not matter.


    Why do I ask that the base car is flashed with stock software twice and a base line taken? The tuners will know this one but the public won't.

    Take ANY stock car and do a baseline. Then flash the stock software in again and then do another baseline. Sometimes there is a power gain Click here to enlarge Sometimes tuners claim this as part of their own upgrade but the actual difference is much smaller!

    Now I will get some emails from a few tuners telling me to keep my mouth shut!! Not all of them are mentioned in this thread, some are just readers.

  21. #21
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    I'll be selling 20lbs bags of ice just outside the dyno shop for 19.95 a bag
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GG///M3 Click here to enlarge
    I'll be selling 20lbs bags of ice just outside the dyno shop for 19.95 a bag
    18.95 a bag! Special Evolve ice with extra surface area for better cooling!

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    lol
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

  24. #24
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    Logging temps is really important.
    You got it, will be done.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    The stock file is then reflashed in again, adaptations reset and a consistent baseline achieved.

    1st tuner loads his file. Results taken.

    Car is then flashed back with stock software and another base line done. Adaptations reset.

    Next tuner comes along loads his software.

    This is THE ONLY way to fairly test because it removes any changes in weather conditions and we concentrate on gains.

    Max power is not recommended here at all because conditions will change.

    The gain in power over a stock software is the most important factor here, everything else does not matter.
    I agree with all this and this should be the procedure. Thank you for your input Evolve Click here to enlarge
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Good luck with the testing guys, we'll be at MIR on the 22nd, but look forward to track or vbox testing later.

    Also fwiw, I agree with Sal regarding testing procedure, that's a good basis for fairness for all parties involved.



    Thanks!

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