Horsepower Freaks (HPF) Stage 4 E46 M3 S54 turbo puts down 925 whp

Originally Posted by Sticky

Why can't they use a different pump than the one they are now?

There really aren't many options on the market for pump that will handle pure meth. Most of the different brands look to be re-badged pieces of the same product, and the specs are very similar. For example, the Shurflo unit that is also sold as an FJO piece.

There is a video where HPF says that they inject 1200cc/min of meth when the system activates, which is higher than the flow gauge they were promoting which shows flow up to 1000cc/min. Then later in the same video they show a pull on the dyno with the flow gauage, dash cluster, and a fuel pressure gauge. During this pull, you can see the fuel pressure increase from a 40psi base under vacuum/idle, to 74psi at what is listed as peak boost of 30psi. This makes sense, as the FPR being used is boost referenced. So I can see from the fuel pressure gauge what the boost pressure is in reference to RPM on the dash cluster. Now....during the pull the Meth gauge pegs to 1000cc then drops as boost pressure increases. This also makes sense, as the pump I think that is being used (Shurflo) will flow more than the 1200cc @ the rated 125psi, but when you increase manifold pressure to 30psi, the flow rate will drop because of increased back pressure. The flow rate is effectively whatever the pump will deliver at 95 psi.

1200cc/min of meth is about 96hp worth of fuel if you were running an engine only on meth. If you were to change the output pressure of the pump to 95psi, without changing the jetting and meth delivery system, flow should drop to approximately 1050cc/min, or 84hp worth. The general rule of thumb with meth injection is to inject meth volume at a ratio of about 20-25% of the gasoline flow. If this ratio was being followed, 1200cc matches up with about 920chp worth of fuel system running gasoline, or a combined power potential of 1016chp worth of fuel. (About 860rwhp)

In the formentioned video, the gauge appears to drop to 950cc/min above 5000RPM...and then down to 850cc/min as the RPM swings past 7000 RPM. Lets say the delivery is 950cc/min, with a 22% meth injection ratio, that a total power potential of 76chp for the meth and 920 for the fuel system, which is 996chp. (845rwhp)

There is a new Aquatec pump that is rated for 165psi with similar flow potential, and this may also be used by HPF. The key thing to remember is that you need 4 times the pressure to double flow. So a pressure drop from 165psi to 135psi for example wouldn't be as dramatic a change in flow as from 125psi down to 95psi.

What I'm getting at here is that it's a combination of pump, delivery system, and jetting. I suspect from the dyno video I previous mentioned that they are maxing out the existing meth system. Increasing the jetting reduces droplet size, and that isn't good for any fuel. The idea is to minimize droplet size, and that's why high pressure pumps are used for good meth systems to start with.

I think HPF chose a good system of parts to start with, but they may have outgrown the flow of the meth system. I also think they would make even more power with say the stage 2 kits on the top end if there was more meth being injected...but that's just an opinion unsubstantiated by any testing on my part.

I guess I haven't really answered you question huh? There are some bigger pumps available, but they are racing units that require you to drain the meth from the system after use making them impractical for a daily driver. The existing pumps are pretty well it for daily drivers....

Originally Posted by PEI330Ci

There really aren't many options on the market for pump that will handle pure meth. Most of the different brands look to be re-badged pieces of the same product, and the specs are very similar. For example, the Shurflo unit that is also sold as an FJO piece.

There is a video where HPF says that they inject 1200cc/min of meth when the system activates, which is higher than the flow gauge they were promoting which shows flow up to 1000cc/min. Then later in the same video they show a pull on the dyno with the flow gauage, dash cluster, and a fuel pressure gauge. During this pull, you can see the fuel pressure increase from a 40psi base under vacuum/idle, to 74psi at what is listed as peak boost of 30psi. This makes sense, as the FPR being used is boost referenced. So I can see from the fuel pressure gauge what the boost pressure is in reference to RPM on the dash cluster. Now....during the pull the Meth gauge pegs to 1000cc then drops as boost pressure increases. This also makes sense, as the pump I think that is being used (Shurflo) will flow more than the 1200cc @ the rated 125psi, but when you increase manifold pressure to 30psi, the flow rate will drop because of increased back pressure. The flow rate is effectively whatever the pump will deliver at 95 psi.

1200cc/min of meth is about 96hp worth of fuel if you were running an engine only on meth. If you were to change the output pressure of the pump to 95psi, without changing the jetting and meth delivery system, flow should drop to approximately 1050cc/min, or 84hp worth. The general rule of thumb with meth injection is to inject meth volume at a ratio of about 20-25% of the gasoline flow. If this ratio was being followed, 1200cc matches up with about 920chp worth of fuel system running gasoline, or a combined power potential of 1016chp worth of fuel. (About 860rwhp)

In the formentioned video, the gauge appears to drop to 950cc/min above 5000RPM...and then down to 850cc/min as the RPM swings past 7000 RPM. Lets say the delivery is 950cc/min, with a 22% meth injection ratio, that a total power potential of 76chp for the meth and 920 for the fuel system, which is 996chp. (845rwhp)

There is a new Aquatec pump that is rated for 165psi with similar flow potential, and this may also be used by HPF. The key thing to remember is that you need 4 times the pressure to double flow. So a pressure drop from 165psi to 135psi for example wouldn't be as dramatic a change in flow as from 125psi down to 95psi.

What I'm getting at here is that it's a combination of pump, delivery system, and jetting. I suspect from the dyno video I previous mentioned that they are maxing out the existing meth system. Increasing the jetting reduces droplet size, and that isn't good for any fuel. The idea is to minimize droplet size, and that's why high pressure pumps are used for good meth systems to start with.

I think HPF chose a good system of parts to start with, but they may have outgrown the flow of the meth system. I also think they would make even more power with say the stage 2 kits on the top end if there was more meth being injected...but that's just an opinion unsubstantiated by any testing on my part.

I guess I haven't really answered you question huh? There are some bigger pumps available, but they are racing units that require you to drain the meth from the system after use making them impractical for a daily driver. The existing pumps are pretty well it for daily drivers....

You provided more than enough info to answer the question I think, quality post that I enjoyed reading.

Why do the racing units require you to drain the meth from the system yet the pumps being used do not?

Originally Posted by Sticky

You provided more than enough info to answer the question I think, quality post that I enjoyed reading.

Why do the racing units require you to drain the meth from the system yet the pumps being used do not?

Thanks.

I guess I should clarify that they are high volume pumps often used for racing, not specifically pumps for racing. The reason why they need to be drained is that meth is really corrosive on internal metal parts if they aren't stainless. Aluminum for example gets eaten by meth....

Best post I've read in a LONG time, great info!

Originally Posted by PEI330Ci

There really aren't many options on the market for pump that will handle pure meth. Most of the different brands look to be re-badged pieces of the same product, and the specs are very similar. For example, the Shurflo unit that is also sold as an FJO piece.

There is a video where HPF says that they inject 1200cc/min of meth when the system activates, which is higher than the flow gauge they were promoting which shows flow up to 1000cc/min. Then later in the same video they show a pull on the dyno with the flow gauage, dash cluster, and a fuel pressure gauge. During this pull, you can see the fuel pressure increase from a 40psi base under vacuum/idle, to 74psi at what is listed as peak boost of 30psi. This makes sense, as the FPR being used is boost referenced. So I can see from the fuel pressure gauge what the boost pressure is in reference to RPM on the dash cluster. Now....during the pull the Meth gauge pegs to 1000cc then drops as boost pressure increases. This also makes sense, as the pump I think that is being used (Shurflo) will flow more than the 1200cc @ the rated 125psi, but when you increase manifold pressure to 30psi, the flow rate will drop because of increased back pressure. The flow rate is effectively whatever the pump will deliver at 95 psi.

1200cc/min of meth is about 96hp worth of fuel if you were running an engine only on meth. If you were to change the output pressure of the pump to 95psi, without changing the jetting and meth delivery system, flow should drop to approximately 1050cc/min, or 84hp worth. The general rule of thumb with meth injection is to inject meth volume at a ratio of about 20-25% of the gasoline flow. If this ratio was being followed, 1200cc matches up with about 920chp worth of fuel system running gasoline, or a combined power potential of 1016chp worth of fuel. (About 860rwhp)

In the formentioned video, the gauge appears to drop to 950cc/min above 5000RPM...and then down to 850cc/min as the RPM swings past 7000 RPM. Lets say the delivery is 950cc/min, with a 22% meth injection ratio, that a total power potential of 76chp for the meth and 920 for the fuel system, which is 996chp. (845rwhp)

There is a new Aquatec pump that is rated for 165psi with similar flow potential, and this may also be used by HPF. The key thing to remember is that you need 4 times the pressure to double flow. So a pressure drop from 165psi to 135psi for example wouldn't be as dramatic a change in flow as from 125psi down to 95psi.

What I'm getting at here is that it's a combination of pump, delivery system, and jetting. I suspect from the dyno video I previous mentioned that they are maxing out the existing meth system. Increasing the jetting reduces droplet size, and that isn't good for any fuel. The idea is to minimize droplet size, and that's why high pressure pumps are used for good meth systems to start with.

I think HPF chose a good system of parts to start with, but they may have outgrown the flow of the meth system. I also think they would make even more power with say the stage 2 kits on the top end if there was more meth being injected...but that's just an opinion unsubstantiated by any testing on my part.

I guess I haven't really answered you question huh? There are some bigger pumps available, but they are racing units that require you to drain the meth from the system after use making them impractical for a daily driver. The existing pumps are pretty well it for daily drivers....

Originally Posted by dzenno

Best post I've read in a LONG time, great info!

Thanks

S54s and meth are a little bit out of my area of expertise, but I saw an oportunity to share my opinion.

I wish I had your same level of knowledge.

Originally Posted by ZooyorQ

I wish I had your same level of knowledge.

Why can't you? That is the point, read and soak it in. Everyone starts somewhere...

Originally Posted by Sticky

Why can't you? That is the point, read and soak it in. Everyone starts somewhere...

I wanted to learn more about race cars: I found a way to spend a lot of time around them watching and listening. Basically, instead of spending money modifying my car, I flew all over the place to race tracks. It was an educational bargain.

Originally Posted by PEI330Ci

I wanted to learn more about race cars: I found a way to spend a lot of time around them watching and listening. Basically, instead of spending money modifying my car, I flew all over the place to race tracks. It was an educational bargain.

Well, for those who don't have the frequent flyer miles learning from reading forums isn't a bad consolation prize. It can't compare to being next to the owner in front of the real thing but I can't be sitting in my underwear at 2 AM at the race track either.

I've learned quite a bit reading the forums, and have built an engine or two in my day but nothing complicated just 350 blocks with standard heads/cams/etc.. nothing wild. Its also been many years.

Originally Posted by Sticky

I can't be sitting in my underwear at 2 AM at the race track either.

Well you could, but you'd be surprised how many people are around at that hour:







Taken from on top of a team haulerone very early friday morning at the 12hrs of Sebring in 2007.

Nice job HPF.. I would love to see what this car puts out in the owner's hands at a local dyno. I would also love to know how much real boost its pushing. Ive seen Chris post a video of his own car's (when it was stg 4) speedo showing 34-35psi in some runs...

Also these cars make good powerbands.

Check out my 900whp powerband. (This was done on straight race gas, no meth at 30-32psi. and some spark plug issues.)

Originally Posted by PEI330Ci

Well you could, but you'd be surprised how many people are around at that hour:

http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...1Resized-1.jpg

http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...0Resized-1.jpg

http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...7Resized-1.jpg

Taken from on top of a team haulerone very early friday morning at the 12hrs of Sebring in 2007.

Ok, a very god point. However, not a single person in their underwear. The internet will always win for hardcore nudity combined with cars.

Originally Posted by TaZaM3

Nice job HPF.. I would love to see what this car puts out in the owner's hands at a local dyno. I would also love to know how much real boost its pushing. Ive seen Chris post a video of his own car's (when it was stg 4) speedo showing 34-35psi in some runs...

Also these cars make good powerbands.

Check out my 900whp powerband. (This was done on straight race gas, no meth at 30-32psi. and some spark plug issues.)

http://www.benzboost.com/images/impo...90bf99b7-1.jpg

Didn't you have a 1000+ whp graph? What happened with that?

Originally Posted by Sticky

Didn't you have a 1000+ whp graph? What happened with that?

That was a one shot (lets make big power) dyno type of deal that I don't want to use as power bloating purposes any longer. You can PLAY alot with the AEM to make power for a short time. I dont have a video of it or anything (don't want to get more criticism). I will be retuning, installing a mbc and 5 bar map sensor soon. Then I will be able to legitimately post 1000+whp dyno's (with a street tune, no BS dyno tune) with full proof. The dyno above is an actual street tune.

Originally Posted by TaZaM3

That was a one shot (lets make big power) dyno type of deal that I don't want to use as power bloating purposes any longer. You can PLAY alot with the AEM to make power for a short time. I dont have a video of it or anything (don't want to get more criticism). I will be retuning, installing a mbc and 5 bar map sensor soon. Then I will be able to legitimately post 1000+whp dyno's (with a street tune, no BS dyno tune) with full proof. The dyno above is an actual street tune.

I respect your position Taza and that you want to post a legitimate, repeatable power figure.

Originally Posted by Sticky

Didn't you have a 1000+ whp graph? What happened with that?

I remember that, it was well over 1000rwhp too...

Taza, What turbo do you have?

Originally Posted by gringotegra

Taza, What turbo do you have?

Precision 76mm... Im entertaining an offer that will rebuild my turbo and will add 150hp addition to its max rating.

Originally Posted by TaZaM3

Precision 76mm... Im entertaining an offer that will rebuild my turbo and will add 150hp addition to its max rating.

This... is intriguing.