• Is BMW outgunned? Next Gen C AMG to get 5.5 TT + C63 Black Series may be coming

                    
      		   
      Published on 10-10-2010 11:19 PM
      48 Comments Comments
      We have received some inside information that Mercedes will indeed give the C-class the new 5.5 liter twin turbo V8 for the next generation AMG model. With the M3 getting an N55 variant it almost surely will be significantly overmatched by a C that will put up at least 500 horsepower depending on how MB limits the boost. By BMW limiting themselves to a 6 cylinder and saving the V8 TT's for the larger cars, they have allowed Mercedes a significant advantage as MB does not seem as concerned in holding back the C class as BMW is with holding back the 3 series from stepping on big brother's toes.

      That isn't the worst of it, word is Mercedes will be using an ECU that also will be tuneable. Someone happened to tell us that a last minute decision was made to not use the Siemens/Continental SE controller and stick with Bosch which means a ton of power will be on tap. If this wasn't bad enough for BMW fans who are going to be playing around with BMW anti-tuning measures and less displacement, Mercedes plans to put their 4.6 liter twin turbo V8 in most models as well to replace the 500/550's. Who says the horsepower war is over? Mercedes seems intent to blow BMW away and I would personally like to thank them for doing so, maybe it will wake BMW up.

      C63 Black Series

      A prototype has been spotted running at the AMG Academy in Europe. Fitted with a cage and matte black paint the car was testing with an SLS. Most likely, it will share the top end of the SLS motor. Will it come to market? It would sure seem that they are serious about it.

      Where does this leave BMW?

      Good question, the next gen M5 and M6 will be strong performers taking on the best MB has to offer. However, what about the rest of the lineup? The N63 4.4 TT V8 has the Mercedes 4.6 liter twin turbo V8 covered but the M3 and 3 series are going to struggle against such a formidable opponent.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: Is BMW outgunned? Next Gen C AMG to get 5.5 TT + C63 Black Series may be coming started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 48 Comments
      1. greatest335i's Avatar
        greatest335i - 10-10-2010, 11:22 PM
        BMW dont care cars that are under 60k !
      1. fstop7's Avatar
        fstop7 - 10-10-2010, 11:40 PM
        Told ya so. The M157 in a C class is going to be INSANE, especially with a dual clutch trans. An N55 based M3 is going to get absolutely $#@! on. Unless the next generation M5/M6 seriously bring the heat this will be the last BMW I will own for performance. I would still own a straight 3 or 5 series as a daily driver, but no more M cars. I would rather spend on a Merc or go GTR, Porsche, or maybe dip into my first Italian car.
      1. DarkPhantom's Avatar
        DarkPhantom - 10-10-2010, 11:42 PM
        I really don't think the next gen M3 will be based on the N55 if benz and others are coming out with motors such as the one above.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky - 10-10-2010, 11:45 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DarkPhantom Click here to enlarge
        I really don't think the next gen M3 will be based on the N55 if benz and others are coming out with motors such as the one above.
        Why not? What motor would they put in it? Won't be the N63/S63. They have already said the next gen M3 will be N55 based.
      1. fstop7's Avatar
        fstop7 - 10-10-2010, 11:49 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DarkPhantom Click here to enlarge
        I really don't think the next gen M3 will be based on the N55 if benz and others are coming out with motors such as the one above.
        What else are they going to do? Develop an all new I6? It had better bring at least 4 liters of displacement to the table, which makes no sense since the S65 is already a 4 liter engine. They're not going to stick a turbo V8 in since that's what the M5/M6 is getting. BMW pretty much $#@!ed themselves into a corner with their brilliant ///Marketing plans.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky - 10-10-2010, 11:50 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fstop7 Click here to enlarge
        What else are they going to do? Develop an all new I6? It had better bring at least 4 liters of displacement to the table, which makes no sense since the S65 is already a 4 liter engine. They're not going to stick a turbo V8 in since that's what the M5/M6 is getting. BMW pretty much $#@!ed themselves into a corner with their brilliant ///Marketing plans.
        AMEN.
      1. DarkPhantom's Avatar
        DarkPhantom - 10-11-2010, 12:01 AM
        Arg! They need to find a way to keep the V8 Click here to enlarge I know it will be some N55 variant, but I still have hope they see what benz is doing and respond appropriately...

        What will be sad is if the new M5/M6 is a formidable opponent for the new C AMG...not sure where they will leave the next M3
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky - 10-11-2010, 12:05 AM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DarkPhantom Click here to enlarge
        What will be sad is if the new M5/M6 is a formidable opponent for the new C AMG...not sure where they will leave the next M3
        The current C63 already matches up too close for comfort to the E60 M5. Mercedes continues to increase its performance by huge strides.

        BMW will start babbling about efficient dynamics instead of giving us the ultimate driving machine.
      1. fstop7's Avatar
        fstop7 - 10-11-2010, 12:07 AM
        The current C63 is already a pretty good challenger for the M5/M6, at least in terms of drag racing. M division really lost the plot. Making SUVs, stupid JOY commercials... seriously?

        The best thing I can say about BMW right now is at least they didn't embarrass themselves the way Audi did with the RS5. All of that testing and development for that result? Ouch. On the other hand, Audi makes the R8 V10, the kind of car BMW is scared to make because it will tarnish their new enviro-hippy image.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky - 10-11-2010, 12:09 AM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fstop7 Click here to enlarge
        The current C63 is already a pretty good challenger for the M5/M6, at least in terms of drag racing. M division really lost the plot. Making SUVs, stupid JOY commercials... seriously?
        There is no Joy in getting your ass handed to you by a Benz.

        And people wonder why I'm critical of BMW and have been questioning their moves.
      1. Mike's Avatar
        Mike - 10-11-2010, 12:13 AM
        5.5 tt vs a 4.4 tt Hhhmmm?

        It will be very interesting to see how the 5.5 v8 tt compares to the current 5.5 v12 tt currently featured in the sl600/s600.

        We already have these numbers(stock and modded) and the numbers(stock and modded) to the 4.4 tt now in use by BMW in Europe. How do they compare? Anyone up for a little research project?

        What leaps out at me is that the new c will have more cubic inches(which will equal more flow) and will be the lighter and more nimble of the 2 vehicles. The plus on the BMW side is that they have always been known to create pure driving sensation! As we all know, you cant get this by simply adding power!
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky - 10-11-2010, 12:16 AM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mike@MHP Click here to enlarge
        The plus on the BMW side is that it has always been the pure driving sensation and as we all know, you cant get this by simply adding power!
        This is true, but with the Mercedes Black Series models even this is changing.
      1. MHP LLC's Avatar
        MHP LLC - 10-11-2010, 12:45 AM
        I would take the new 5.5L biturbo V8 over both the 5.5L and 6.0L biturbo V12s for a few simple reasons:

        1) Direct Injection--allows for higher mechanical C/R meaning less lag and more hp/tq per lb of boost.

        2) 4V vs 3V--Turbos pair so well with 4 valves because the twin exhaust valves move a greater mass of air with higher velocity than a single exhaust valve (ie 3v/2v) can all else equal, thereby spooling the snails quicker.

        3) The trans mated to these engines is lightyears ahead of the WA5A trannys found paired with the bi-turbo V12s. More gears, closer ratios, and significantly faster up and downshifting.

        With that being said can you imagine what it would've been like to see a TT M156/6.2L AMG variant? It was planned, and there are key features designed into the cylinder head castings themselves that reinforce this, but due to the global pussification movement we will never see what could have possibly been the sickest motor to ever have polluted our atmosphere.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky - 10-11-2010, 12:53 AM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
        1) Direct Injection--allows for higher mechanical C/R meaning less lag and more hp/tq per lb of boost.
        What about when exceeding the fuel system? It seems we are seeing a lot of issues trying to get higher capacity injectors and pumps that can cope.

        It seems traditional port injection has an advantage here on big hp platforms.
      1. M3_WC's Avatar
        M3_WC - 10-11-2010, 01:28 AM
        I've said this a couple times in the past on here. I could see this coming months ago. BMW will be stuck with a turbo 6 competing against a ttV8.
      1. M3_WC's Avatar
        M3_WC - 10-11-2010, 01:29 AM
        Will the 5.5 ttV8 find its way into the new C-class coupe being built next year?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky - 10-11-2010, 01:29 AM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3_WC Click here to enlarge
        I've said this a couple times in the past on here. I could see this coming months ago. BMW will be stuck with a turbo 6 competing against a ttV8.
        Wonder if Audi can finally take advantage of this.
      1. MSpiredM3's Avatar
        MSpiredM3 - 10-11-2010, 03:04 AM
        I have faith in BMW, they have yet to let me down and fall behind the competitors... Click here to enlarge
      1. Irishace's Avatar
        Irishace - 10-11-2010, 09:14 AM
        MB is looking better and better but I could not bring myself to get one. Let's hope BMW gets their act together with the new M3 and delivers a proper response.
      1. black bnr32's Avatar
        black bnr32 - 10-11-2010, 10:26 AM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fstop7 Click here to enlarge
        The current C63 is already a pretty good challenger for the M5/M6, at least in terms of drag racing. M division really lost the plot. Making SUVs, stupid JOY commercials... seriously?

        The best thing I can say about BMW right now is at least they didn't embarrass themselves the way Audi did with the RS5. All of that testing and development for that result? Ouch. On the other hand, Audi makes the R8 V10, the kind of car BMW is scared to make because it will tarnish their new enviro-hippy image.
        I like this guy.
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