HPF (horsepower freaks) shows how they build their 1000 RWHP Daily Driven BMW M3 S54 Turbo Motors

Originally Posted by 05m3smg

It looks more like its promoting the engine builder and his techniques. Doesnt really seem to be "hpf" related

That's the good part, what makes the HPF turbo setups possible and reliable. Not sure what you mean how it isn't HPF related.

very detailed engine work. great.

Originally Posted by Sticky

That's the good part, what makes the HPF turbo setups possible and reliable. Not sure what you mean how it isn't HPF related.

What im saying is that this could have just as been called "SECRETS Behind The Chevy LS1 RACE ENGINES" It is showing great detail of building a quality engine. And i doubt that Bryan is the only engine builder using these techniques on building quality motors. Great vids though.

It does show that HPF does want the best when doing what they do.

Brian is a true craftsman. Hard to find people like him these days.

Originally Posted by 05m3smg

Doesnt really seem to be "hpf" related....Or maybe i didnt watch enough of the videos.

I would disagree, I'm in marketing and I found the videos to be an extremely useful marketing tool for the Company's higher stage kits. They show what goes into the build, the quality and the effort taken to prepare a reliable block for such power. It was 100% relevant to HPF as it showcases an aspect of the kit that would normally have little exposure.

Originally Posted by DBFIU

Brian is a true craftsman. Hard to find people like him these days.

I found the videos quite informative and the shop to be of a very high quality in terms of talent, attention to detail and equipment being used. However, there are many shops just like this one across the country. I didn't see anything beyond standard practices of any reputable engine builder. The extent of R&D by the builder was Darton sleeves, everything else was standard build procedures. The shop did have top notch equipment which is a plus when shopping around.

I won't mention any shops by name out of respect to this thread, but there are a few BMW specific engine builders that have done far more R&D into these builds. One such shop offset grinds the OEM crank in order to utilize non-standard hardened coated main bearings and rod bearings which makes the bottom end virtually bullet proof. This also changes the stroke slightly to a more efficient ratio. Another aspect of an engine build is the heads, I would have been interested to see what kind of head work they do as well. To me that is what sets an engine builder apart, is the head work. If a builder can squeeze a few CFM out of the OEM heads, that is something to brag about.

Overall.. great videos.. awesome shop.. quality build.. but nothing to build an altar too and pray to the M&B engine gods.

Originally Posted by ccsykes

I won't mention any shops by name out of respect to this thread, but there are a few BMW specific engine builders that have done far more R&D into these builds. One such shop offset grinds the OEM crank in order to utilize non-standard hardened coated main bearings and rod bearings which makes the bottom end virtually bullet proof.

Why not start a thread for BMW engine builders who don't get more mainstream credit?

This is special

Yes for marketing this is a great approach. As it does not expose anything about hpf but in the consumers eye it looks like it does.

Originally Posted by MSpiredM3

I'm sorry, but until I SEE one of these other reputable shops build at least 5 motors that see lots of boost and last a long time, I wouldn't buy their stock. Also, maybe there are things that weren't even mentioned in the videos and kept secret

The builder I mentioned builds motors for track use. It is one thing to push 30+ PSI boost for short blasts down a highway and push a motor in the 5,000- 8,200 RPM for extended periods on a track.

I would be quite surprised if HPF Stage 4 motor could operate in that power band for that length of time..

I was merly pointing out R&D as it relates to engine building. Comparing the two is like comparing an apple to a orange.

As for secrets, there is not many secrets left in the world of engine building. Maybe some piston modifications specific per builders experience, but for the most part "secrets" in the world of engine building are not really that secret.. if your an engine builder.

I also would doubt an obscure engine builder in Oregon would have more BMW specific knowledge than a shop that has specialized in BMW for 30+ years.. just IMHO..

I'm not saying the builder is not a quality builder.. they obviously are by the videos and HPF management has made a good choice in sourcing a local quality shop for their builds.. I was just pointing out that it didn't appear to me to be any kind of fancy R&D aside from basic quality build procedures being used.

Originally Posted by ccsykes

The builder I mentioned builds motors for track use. It is one thing to push 30+ PSI boost for short blasts down a highway and push a motor in the 5,000- 8,200 RPM for extended periods on a track.

I would be quite surprised if HPF Stage 4 motor could operate in that power band for that length of time..

With all due respect:

Originally Posted by HPF Chris

I beat on these cars and race the car an hour at a time full throttle, braking, full throttle and we have cars with built motors nearing 50,000 miles now.

Some people can just never give credit were it is due. Let's
see how VF build motors. Vf comment was not directed at you CC

I think ccsykes comments were more than fair. The guy seems like a conscientious builder, but ordering stronger parts when stuff breaks isn't in-depth R&D.

Personally I found parts of the video a little cringeworthy (kind of like watching your chef taste sauce and then continue stirring with the spoon -- it really isn't a big deal, but you'd rather not know/see it).

Originally Posted by spdu4ea

Personally I found parts of the video a little cringeworthy

Examples?

Those cylinder walls are pretty thin. If I were looking for 1000whp i would go with the sleeved block, or a thicker walled block. Not sure why they do not o-ring the block or head.

There was absolutely nothing in the video that would prevent me from using that shop (in fact I'd be more likely to use them) and the cringing came from stuff that I know if a Cleveland-type fellow saw, they could launch into another anti-hpf tirade on m3forum.


Examples: There probably should have been some discussion/concern about the warped head and acceptable tolerances before machining. I believe they had to take off .006" from the head due to warpage. I don't know S54 specs, but on a high-boost Supra that would be starting to approach the area where I'd want to consider straightening or replacing the head. The problem with machining a warped head is that the head is still warped -- it just has a flat bottom (meaning the cams now have to bend every revolution, the combustion chambers all have slightly different volumes, and the head now has a non-uniform thickness and is even more likely to warp in the future). In the real world 6 thou from the head won't matter one bit, but that is certainly fodder available for the "its an M3 -- it must be perfect" crowd.

Other nit-picky things in the shop: setting a new piston down on a dirty tool chest, removing the main bolts completely one at a time (slight possibility of warping crank), using calipers that had obviously been mishandled (cracked digital display), etc

And there were a few metallurgy mis-statements (e.g. calling ductile iron hardened). Again it doesn't really matter if your engine builder knows all about interstitial alloying as long as he meticulously follows procedure -- which this guy did. Going back to ccsykes' point -- it really wasn't any different than what you'd see done at any reputable shop so for those who've been around engine builds, it hardly seems vid-worthy. But Chris & HPF have a way of taking something relatively ordinary and packaging it in a way everyone loves. I'm convinced the guy could make a video about programming the radio seem exciting.

Originally Posted by spdu4ea

There was absolutely nothing in the video that would prevent me from using that shop (in fact I'd be more likely to use them) and the cringing came from stuff that I know if a Cleveland-type fellow saw, they could launch into another anti-hpf tirade on m3forum.


Examples: There probably should have been some discussion/concern about the warped head and acceptable tolerances before machining. I believe they had to take off .006" from the head due to warpage. I don't know S54 specs, but on a high-boost Supra that would be starting to approach the area where I'd want to consider straightening or replacing the head. The problem with machining a warped head is that the head is still warped -- it just has a flat bottom (meaning the cams now have to bend every revolution, the combustion chambers all have slightly different volumes, and the head now has a non-uniform thickness and is even more likely to warp in the future). In the real world 6 thou from the head won't matter one bit, but that is certainly fodder available for the "its an M3 -- it must be perfect" crowd.

Other nit-picky things in the shop: setting a new piston down on a dirty tool chest, removing the main bolts completely one at a time (slight possibility of warping crank), using calipers that had obviously been mishandled (cracked digital display), etc

And there were a few metallurgy mis-statements (e.g. calling ductile iron hardened). Again it doesn't really matter if your engine builder knows all about interstitial alloying as long as he meticulously follows procedure -- which this guy did. Going back to ccsykes' point -- it really wasn't any different than what you'd see done at any reputable shop so for those who've been around engine builds, it hardly seems vid-worthy. But Chris & HPF have a way of taking something relatively ordinary and packaging it in a way everyone loves. I'm convinced the guy could make a video about programming the radio seem exciting.

Good points.

Originally Posted by Sticky

With all due respect:

We can agree to disagree.. I like HPF's.. I'm even considering dropping the coin for a Stage 4 since my business has been doing well. But if I wanted a track car.. I wouldn't consider a car with 30+ PSI of boost. They simply have to violent of a power curve for the track.

Originally Posted by ccsykes

We can agree to disagree.. I like HPF's.. I'm even considering dropping the coin for a Stage 4 since my business has been doing well. But if I wanted a track car.. I wouldn't consider a car with 30+ PSI of boost. They simply have to violent of a power curve for the track.

Good points. I think a low boost turbo car can do great on the track.

Originally Posted by spdu4ea

Going back to ccsykes' point -- it really wasn't any different than what you'd see done at any reputable shop so for those who've been around engine builds, it hardly seems vid-worthy. But Chris & HPF have a way of taking something relatively ordinary and packaging it in a way everyone loves. I'm convinced the guy could make a video about programming the radio seem exciting.

lol!! That was my whole point.. the videos were works of art no doubt about it. I've been building engines for 20 years. I remember before the days of CNC equipment... I've used a electric drill to hone my cylinders lol!!! The engine builder was a quality mechanic nobody is arguing that. However, I just didn't see anything I wouldn't expect from any machine shop.. I can find half a dozen in Houston alone that are just a good.

Now if I had seen some serious custom machine work taking place, I would have had a different view. They decked the engine, surfaced the head, used a CNC to bore the cylinders with a TQ plate.. all standard procedure. The equipment used was pretty common in reputable shops these days. Again, there are BMW machine shops that do custom crank grinding, use custom sized rods and non-BMW coated bearings. Installing a sleeve to me isn't anything custom.. I've done it on a few boosted Hondas.. big deal.

Again.. GREAT ENGINE BUILD! It just doesn't warrant a pedestal or altar.. According to HPF site.. the builds cost $3K.. To me that is an EXCEPTIONAL price for what was done. Most BMW builders charge three times that. That alone makes it a great build to me and a shop I would consider using.. just based on price alone.