• Next generation M5 to lose manual transmission option, M3 will continue to have manual offered - Manual dying?

                    
      		   
      Published on 06-21-2012 09:21 PM
      5 Comments Comments
      It was only a matter of time before this happened, the manual will be dead in the M5 after the F10. The manual in the M5 already was eliminated everywhere in the world except in the USA starting with the previous generation E60. The numbers simply do not justify BMW continuing to offer a manual in the M5 as orders with the manual option are declining. BMW M's head of engineering Albert Biermann stated, "Last year, maybe 15-20 percent of our M5s in the U.S. were manuals and maybe this year it will be 15 percent. It's declining. The trouble is that nobody wants it in Europe or anywhere else, so this will be the last time we do it, even for the hard-core U.S. buyers."

      We were surprised to begin with that BMW catered to the U.S. market in such a fashion but it was nice that we finally got something everyone else did not. The M3 will continue to have a manual option however as according to Biermann, "The M3 needs to have a stick shift. It will always have a stick shift."

      We have a feeling it will only be a matter of time before the manual is gone in the M3 as well. It all comes down to economies of scale and the trend we saw in the M5 will no doubt carry over to the M3 at some point. Expect to see this reasoning applied in the future to more models, "We just can't justify it anymore. It's a no-cost option, but it's been very difficult to do. Theoretically the stick is cheaper, but it's very low volumes and we have to strengthen everything in the gearbox and find space for the shifter and another pedal, so it doesn't work out cheaper."

      Funny how a dual clutch transmission that costs thousands more than the manual simply becomes the cheaper option due to volume. Whether people want to admit it or not, the manual transmission is slowly dying.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: Next generation M5 to lose manual transmission option, M3 will continue to have manual offered - Manual dying? started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 56 Comments
      1. Sorena's Avatar
        Sorena - 06-29-2012, 03:40 PM
        F1 cars have more speed shift than most DCT's. The only DCT out there that can shift faster than F1 is the Getrag in BMW's which is claimed that it can do in 4ms though there is no evidence from either BMW or Getrag to back it up.
      1. Q4P's Avatar
        Q4P - 06-29-2012, 03:42 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        F1 cars have more speed shift than most DCT's. The only DCT out there that can shift faster than F1 is the Getrag in BMW's which is claimed that it can do in 4ms though there is no evidence from either BMW or Getrag to back it up.
        my point exactly
      1. Kautiongsr's Avatar
        Kautiongsr - 06-29-2012, 04:33 PM
        Just letting u guys know.. Bmw sees a dct transmission in group 28
        Automatic group 24
        manual group 23
        CVT group 24
        sound like they are different... They may act like a manual because of a cluth disc and may act like a automatic because u don't have a clutch pedal... End of day there different... I have replaceable all 4 transmission in different bmw models ... And yup there different lol Click here to enlarge
        for any smart ass cvt transmissions are in our bmw minis
      1. whoosh's Avatar
        whoosh - 07-01-2012, 09:30 AM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        F1 cars have more speed shift than most DCT's. The only DCT out there that can shift faster than F1 is the Getrag in BMW's which is claimed that it can do in 4ms though there is no evidence from either BMW or Getrag to back it up.
        Keep in mind that the reason F1 'boxes have a gap at all is due to the technical regs. No doubt they would have engineered shifts < 1ms by now had the FIA allowed it.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky - 07-01-2012, 06:24 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
        Sticky you are not the brighest cat in the bunch thats for sure. What you just said is obvious... a fully manual transmission is and will always be slower than a dct. I was comparing a fully automated single clutch MCT tranny used in F1 in comparison to DCTs. Are you going to tell everyone now that the sun is hot?
        How am I not the brightest bulb when you continually keep bringing up some penalty for the DCT that doesn't exist? MCT, manual, whatever, DCT beats them all. So sorry your point held no water.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky - 07-01-2012, 06:24 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        F1 cars have more speed shift than most DCT's. The only DCT out there that can shift faster than F1 is the Getrag in BMW's which is claimed that it can do in 4ms though there is no evidence from either BMW or Getrag to back it up.
        You have absolutely no evidence to support this and are just making a blanket statement.

        The technology in a DCT can't be beat. It is what it is, how are you going to outshift something that already has the next gear pre-selected? You can't.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky - 07-01-2012, 06:25 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by whoosh Click here to enlarge
        Keep in mind that the reason F1 'boxes have a gap at all is due to the technical regs. No doubt they would have engineered shifts < 1ms by now had the FIA allowed it.
        And if the FIA allowed a DCT who knows how far they would take it...
      1. Kautiongsr's Avatar
        Kautiongsr - 07-02-2012, 02:27 AM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        How am I not the brightest bulb when you continually keep bringing up some penalty for the DCT that doesn't exist? MCT, manual, whatever, DCT beats them all. So sorry your point held no water.
        Not kissing ass but seriously Sticky I agree 100%....DCT ftw.... It's fast as $#@! and performs great for daily ...
        Talking about f1 lol on Hamilton last race
      1. Sorena's Avatar
        Sorena - 07-02-2012, 02:57 AM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        You have absolutely no evidence to support this and are just making a blanket statement.
        The Renault transmission in Renault-Lotus in this season shift in 5ms. I don't know about others since they didn't release any info, but i don't think they are much far behind.

        Those transmissions are easily well over $100,000 per unit. Don't you think at that price they should be something special?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky - 07-02-2012, 05:35 AM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        The Renault transmission in Renault-Lotus in this season shift in 5ms. I don't know about others since they didn't release any info, but i don't think they are much far behind.

        Those transmissions are easily well over $100,000 per unit. Don't you think at that price they should be something special?
        The Veyron's is a 1/4 million, your point?

        You are comparing f1 trans to street applications? Ok, still does not change the fact DCT is the superior technology for shift speed. It is f1 regulations that prevent its use in that sport.
      1. Sorena's Avatar
        Sorena - 07-02-2012, 05:49 AM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        The Veyron's is a 1/4 million, your point?
        My point is that they are much more than the SMG's in BMW's. I double checked BTW, F1 transmissions cost above 150,000 euros which more than what a the Ricardo DCT in Veyron costs.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        You are comparing f1 trans to street applications? Ok, still does not change the fact DCT is the superior technology for shift speed. It is f1 regulations that prevent its use in that sport.
        I didn't compare anything. You said it was impossible to shift faster than DCT, i said no it's not. That's it.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky - 07-02-2012, 08:34 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        My point is that they are much more than the SMG's in BMW's. I double checked BTW, F1 transmissions cost above 150,000 euros which more than what a the Ricardo DCT in Veyron costs.
        And the cost is the deciding factor on the transmission performance capability instead of the technology employed? Interesting. Cool, so F1 trans and the Veyron trans are about the same price, nice.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        I didn't compare anything. You said it was impossible to shift faster than DCT, i said no it's not. That's it.
        It is impossible. The technology itself with the way it functions should tell you that.

        If you have to go so far as to bring up F1 racing transmissions to compare to street dual clutches, well, what does that tell you? Shouldn't it also tell you a DCT that sees development for F1 applications will obviously be at the absolute maximum? Seriously, read up on how the trans works so you can understand a single clutch can't physically shift as fast as something already in gear.
      1. Sorena's Avatar
        Sorena - 07-03-2012, 05:18 AM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        And the cost is the deciding factor on the transmission performance capability instead of the technology employed? Interesting. Cool, so F1 trans and the Veyron trans are about the same price, nice. It is impossible. The technology itself with the way it functions should tell you that. If you have to go so far as to bring up F1 racing transmissions to compare to street dual clutches, well, what does that tell you? Shouldn't it also tell you a DCT that sees development for F1 applications will obviously be at the absolute maximum? Seriously, read up on how the trans works so you can understand a single clutch can't physically shift as fast as something already in gear.
        MAN WHY WE CAN'T AGREE ON ONE SINGLE GOD DAMN THING? Click here to enlarge
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky - 07-03-2012, 05:44 AM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        MAN WHY WE CAN'T AGREE ON ONE SINGLE GOD DAMN THING? Click here to enlarge
        We can you just don't understand a lot of basic things.

        I mean seriously, comparing a single clutch transmissions in Formula 1 to street DCT transmissions cost wise? Illogical.

        Secondly, do you have a street single clutch trans that is faster than a dual clutch for the street? No.

        What do you think would happen if a DCT was allowed in F1? What, the cars would get slower? No, they would get faster and the technology would see additional racing development. I mean what the hell do you think Porsche went to a dual clutch from a single clutch to for racing in the first place? To be slower?

        Your argument is weak and illogical. I can't agree with you because of this.
      1. Sorena's Avatar
        Sorena - 07-03-2012, 06:53 AM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        We can you just don't understand a lot of basic things.

        I mean seriously, comparing a single clutch transmissions in Formula 1 to street DCT transmissions cost wise? Illogical.
        Of course. I don't say we should compare a Cessna 150 to a F-22 Raptor, BUT saying a single clutch can't be faster than DCT is not right because those seamless transmissions in F1's are faster. I know that cost a fortune and are so high tech that it takes decades for street cars to match, but still it's a transmission.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky - 07-03-2012, 07:39 AM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        Of course. I don't say we should compare a Cessna 150 to a F-22 Raptor, BUT saying a single clutch can't be faster than DCT is not right because those seamless transmissions in F1's are faster. I know that cost a fortune and are so high tech that it takes decades for street cars to match, but still it's a transmission.
        A single clutch can not be faster as it is a physical limitation. I don't know how fast F1 trans shift but it doesn't change that a dual clutch is capable of faster shifts due to its design.

        Hiw many more dual clutch versus single clutch tests it will take before people get it I have no clue.
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